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Where Do The Finns Come From?
Sydaby ^ | Christian Carpelan

Posted on 09/26/2007 10:49:43 AM PDT by blam

WHERE DO FINNS COME FROM?

Not long ago, cytogenetic experts stirred up a controversy with their "ground-breaking" findings on the origins of the Finnish and Sami peoples. Cytogenetics is by no means a new tool in bioanthropological research, however. As early as the 1960s and '70s, Finnish researchers made the significant discovery that one quarter of the Finns' genetic stock is Siberian, and three quarters is European in origin. The Samis, however, are of different genetic stock: a mixture of distinctly western, but also eastern elements. If we examine the genetic links between the peoples of Europe, the Samis form a separate group unto themselves, and other Uralic peoples, too have a distinctive genetic profile.

Bioanthropology: Tracing our genetic roots

We humans inherit the genetic material contained in the mitochondrion of our cell cytoplasm (mitochondrial DNA) from our mothers, as the DNA molecules in sperm appear to break down after fertilization. Since the 1980s, tests on mitochondrial DNA have enabled scientists to establish the biological links and origins of human populations by tracing their maternal lineage. DNA tests confirm that Homo sapiens originated in Africa roughly 150,000 years ago. From there modern man went forth and conquered new territory, eventually populating nearly all seven continents.

Another fact confirmed by DNA tests is that there is only minor genetic variation between the peoples of Europe, the Finns included. Mitochondrial DNA tests have revealed the presence of a 'western' component in the Finns' genetic makeup. Meanwhile, tests on the cell nucleus indicate that Finnish genes differ to some extent from those of other Europeans. This apparent contradiction stems from the fact that the genetic diversity evidenced by mitochondrial DNA is of much older origin - indeed tens of thousands of years older - than that of the cell nucleus, whose genetic time span goes back only a few thousand years.

The Riddle of the Samis

DNA research reveals that the genetic makeup of the Samis and Samoyeds differs significantly both from each other and from other Europeans. In the case of the Samoyeds, this is not surprising, since it was not until the early Middle Ages that they migrated to northeastern Europe from the outer reaches of Siberia. It is curious, however, that the mitochondrial DNA of the Samis should differ so distinctly from that of other European peoples. The "Sami motif" which has been identified by researchers - a combination of three specific genetic mutations - is shared by more than one third of all tested Samis, but of all the gene tests conducted throughout the world, the same mutation has occurred in only six other samples, one Finnish and five Karelian. This prompts the question as to whether the ascendants of the latter-day Samis have perhaps lived in genetic isolation at some stage in their evolution.

DNA scientists class the Finns as Indo-Europeans, or descendants of western genetic stock. But because "Indo-European" is a term borrowed from linguistics, it is misleading in the broader context of bioanthropology. DNA scientists work within a time frame of tens of thousands of years, whereas the evolution of Indo-European languages, as indeed of all European language groups, is confined to a much briefer time span. DNA scientists nevertheless postulate that the Finno-Ugric population absorbed an influx of migrating Indo-European farming communities ("Indo-European" both genetically and, by that stage, also in the language they spoke). The newcomers altered the original genetic makeup of the Finno-Ugric population, but nevertheless adopted their language. This, in a nutshell, explains the origin of the Finns, according to the DNA scientists. The Samis, however, are a much older population in the opinion of DNA scientists, and their origin has yet to be established conclusively.

Philology: Tracing our linguistic heritage

Language is one of the defining characteristics of an ethnic group. To a great extent, the ethnic identity of the Finns and the Samis can be defined on the basis of the language they speak. The Finns speak a Uralic language, as do the Samis, Estonians, the Mari, Ostyaks, Samoyeds and various other ethnic groups. Excluding the Hungarians, Uralic languages are spoken exclusively by peoples inhabiting the forest and tundra belt extending from Scandinavia to west Siberia. All the Uralic languages originate from a common proto-language, but down the centuries, they have branched off into separate offshoots. The precise origins and geographical range of Progo-Uralic nevertheless remains a point of academic contention.

Previously it was assumed that Proto-Uralic, or Proto-Finno-Ugric, originated from a narrowly confinded region of eastern Russia. Linguistic differentiation was believed to occur as these Proto-Uralic peoples migrated their separate ways. According to this theory, our early Finnish ancestors arrived on Finnish soil through a gradual process of westbound migration.

When the plausibility of this theory came under doubt, various others were posited. One such theory postulates that the origins of Proto-Uralic are in continental Europe. According to this theory, the linguistic evolution that gave rise to the Sami language occurred when European settlement spread to Fennoscandia. Our early Finnish ancestors became "Indo-Europeanized Samis" under the influence - demographic, cultural and linguistic - of the Baltic and Germanic peoples.

The "contact theory," again, suggests that the proto languages of the language families of today developed as a result of convergence caused by close interaction between speakers of originally different languages: the notion of a common linguistic birthplace thus goes against its premises. According to a recent variant of the contact theory, Proto-Uralic developed in this way among the peoples inhabiting the rim of the continental glacier extending from the Atlantic to the Urals, while Progo-Indo-European developed correspondingly further south. The Proto-Indo-European peoples later mastered the art of farming and gradually began to spread throughout various parts of Europe. In this process, Indo-European languages not only began to displace the Uralic languages, but also to significantly influence the evolution of those not yet displaced.

However many linguists support the notion that the Uralic languages have so many points in common in their basic structures - both in grammar and vocabulary - that these similarities cannot plausibly be attributed to interaction between unrelated language groups across such a broad geographical range. Rather we must presume that they share a common point of origin whence they derive their characteristic features and whence their geographical range began to expand: as it expanded, speakers of other languages who fell within its range presumably changed their original language in favor of Proto-Uralic. The same would apply to the Indo-European family of languages, too.

Archaeology reveals the age of ancient settlements Archaeological evidence confirms that Homo sapiens first settled in Europe between 40,000 and 35,000 BC. These early settlers presumably originated from common genetic stock. Genetic mutations like the "Sami motif" have indeed occurred down the centuries, but no other has had quite the same implications. It is of course conceivable that only the ancestors of the present-day Samis lived in a sufficient degree of genetic isolation for this chance mutation to survive.

Homo sapiens first arrived in Europe during a relatively warm spell in the Weichsel Glacial Stage. Between 20,000 and 16,000 BC a period of extreme cold forced settlers back southwards. Central Europe became depopulated, as did the region of the Oka and Kama rivers. After this cold peak, the climate grew milder, but with occasional intervening periods of harsh cold. Gradually people began returning to the regions they had abandoned thousands of years before. Meanwhile, the ice cap progressively withdrew northwards, opening up new territory for settlement. The Ice Age came to an end with a phase of rapid climate change around 9500 BC. Scientists estimate that the average yearly temperature may have risen by as many as seven degrees within a few decades. What remained of the continental glacier vanished within another thousand years.

Radical environmental changes followed from the warming of the climate. The tundras that once fringed the glacier now became forest, and elk appeared in the place of the wild reindeer that formerly roamed the rim of the glacier. The transition from the Palaeolithic period (Early Stone Age) to the Mesolithic period (Middle Stone Age) around 8000 BC was a phase marked by man's endeavors to adapt to the many changes occurring in his environment. This was the period when the Uralic peoples settled in the regions of northern Europe in which we find them today.

Scandinavia settled by continental Europeans

A substantial proportion of the world's water was tied up in the continental glaciers during the Ice Age. As the sea level was much lower than it is today, expansive tracts of land which now lie underwater were once the site of coastal settlements. The North Sea Continent between England and Denmark is a case in point: underwater finds prove that this region was the site of human settlements in the late stages of the Ice Age.

Norwegian archaeologists believe that the first pioneering settlers to leave the North Sea Continent were sea-fishing communities which advanced rapidly along the Norwegian coastline to Finnmark and the Rybachy Peninsula around 9000 BC at the latest. Many archaeologists formerly believed that the earliest settlers on the Finnmark coastline, who represented the Komsa culture, migrated there from Finland, east Europe or Siberia. More recent archaeological evidence does not support this theory, however.

The pioneers who settled on the coast of Norway appear to have gradually advanced inland toward north Sweden, and presumably also to the northernmost reaches of Finnish Lapland. Around 6000 BC, a second wave of migrants from Germany and Denmark worked northward via Sweden eventually, too, reaching northern Lapland. The Norwegian coastline remained populated by its founding settlers, but the founding population of north Scandinavia was a melting pot of two different peoples. Does the fact that the "Sami motif" confines itself to a particular region of nrothern Scandinavia then suggest that the mutation occurred not before, but after, northern Scandinavia became populated?

Grave findings have shown that late Palaeolithic settlers in central Europe and their Mesolithic descendants in the Scandinavian Peninsula were Europoids, who had compartively large teeth - a seemingly comical detail, but nevertheless an important factor in identifying these populations. Although it is very unlikely that the language of these settlers will ever be identified, I cannot see any grounds for the theory that either of these groups spoke Proto-Uralic.

Eastern Europe: a melting pot

If we now turn to the early settlements of northeastern Europe, their history is more complicated than that of Scandinavia, as the peoples who settled there appear to have migrated from several different directions.

The Palaeolithic peoples of southern Russia originally inhabited the steppes, but as the Ice Age drew near its end, the easternmost steppes became arid. Central Russia meanwhile became richly forested, providing a more hospitable living environment than the parched

steppes. The Palaeolithic settlements of the river Don evidently died out when their communities migrated to the region of the rivers Oka and Kama. The archaeological remains of late Palaeolithic pioneer settlements in central Russia nevertheless provide only indirect circumstantial evidence rather than any hard proof of this theory.

At the end of the Ice Age, the eastern parts of southern Russia were sparsely populated wasteland, but in the west, in the region of the River Dneper, a Palaeolithic culture flourished. From there, settlers migrated to the forest belt of central Russia. As the late Palaeolithic peoples of Poland, Lithuania and west Belarus adapted to forestation, they too commenced migrating to central Russia. At the beginning of the Mesolithic period, peoples of three different origins appear to have competed for a livelihood within the same region of central Russia.

As the northern conifer forests (or taiga belt) spread northward, this melting pot of settlers followed, eventually attaining a latitude of 65 around 7000 BC. After that, they began to populate the northernmost fringes of Europe. On the North Cap of Fennoscandia, a 'frontier' appears to have stood between the peoples who migrated north via Scandinavia and those who migrated via Finland and Karelia. Russian archaeologists in turn see no evidence of Palaeolithic or Mesolithic westward migration from Siberia.

Two different types of skull, Europoid and Mongoloid, have been discovered in excavated Mesolithic grave sites in northeast Europe. The two skull types have been cited as evidence for the theory that an early group of settlers migrated to Europe from Siberia. The 'Siberian' element found in Finnish genes is believed to furnish further evidence to back up this claim, but the theory is rendered doubtful by the fact that there is a lack of corroborating archaeological evidence.

According to more recent theories, the two types of skull found in Mesolithic graves do not suggest the presence of two different populations as was formerly believed, but rather they indicate a wide degree of genetic variation within one and the same population. All in all, the peoples of the northeast were very different from those of the west. The decisive difference is in the teeth.

East Europeans have small teeth compared with the relatively large teeth of the Scandinavian, a peculiarity deriving from an age-old genetic distinction. Ancient skulls tell usthat the early settlers of east Europe were mostly descendants of an ancient east European population which lived in prolonged isolation from the Scandinavians. Perhaps the "Siberian" element in Finnish genes is, in fact, east European in origin?

The Samis, too, have comparatively small teeth, which has been cited as evidence that they are descendants of the small-toothed Mesolithic population of east Europe. Archaeological findings and genetic evidence nevertheless fail to back up this theory. Have the small teeth of the Samis evolved in isolation, or are they a later genetic trait? If we take the latter alternative, we should perhaps consider the contributing role of those settlers who migrated to the Sami region from the northern parts of Finland and east Karelia. There is archaeological evidence of such northbound migration from the Bronze Age and the early Iron Age.

Proto-Uralic stems from eastern Europe?

How, then, are we to explain the fact that Finnish belongs to the Uralic group of languages? I believe that the evolution of Europe's modern languages began in the Palaeolithic period during a phase of adaptation to the socio-economic changes brought by the end of the Ice Age. My theory is that Proto-Uralic has its roots in eastern Europe, where, after a period of expansion following the Ice Age, it became the common language of a particular east European population, eventually replacing all other languages appearing in that region.

When settlement began in earnest, Mesolithic cultures sprang up between the Baltic Sea and the Urals, where Proto-Uralic, too, began to branch out into its various offshoots. In my opinion, archaeological evidence of later movements and waves of influence suggests that the linguistic evolution of Uralic languages did not follow the classic "family tree" model: "family bush," as suggested by linguists, would be a more appropriate metaphor.

North Finland's early settlements were established by a founding population of east Europeans who migrated as far north as the Arctic Circle. Early Proto-Finnish - the "grandmother language" of the Finnic and Sami languages - traces back to the period in which the "Comb Ceramic" culture spread throughout the region around 4000 BC. Proto-Sami and Proto-Finnic parted ways when the "Battle-Axe or Corded Ware culture" arrived in southwest Finland around 3000 BC. This linguistic differentiation continued during the Bronze Age in about 1500 BC, when the Scandinavians began to exert a tangible influence on the region and its language, which explains the appearance of the Proto-Baltic and Proto-German loan words, for example.

From here began the evolution of Proto-Finnic and, further, the differentiation of the Finnic languages. The linguistic evolution leading to the genesis of Proto-Sami occurred in the eastern, northern and inland regions of Finland, where the Baltic and German influence was weak, but the east European influence was comparatively strong. As a commonly spoken language and a language of trade, Proto-Sami spread from the Kola Peninsula as far as Jämtland in the wake of late Iron and Bronze Age migrations.

I believe, then, that the peoples inhabiting Norrland and the North Cap changed their original language - whatever it may have been - in favor of Proto-Sami in the Bronze Age. The present-day Samis thus stem from a different genetic stock and a largely different cultural background than the original "Proto-Samis" who later became integrated with the rest of the Finnish population. Our early Finnish ancestors did not change their language, but they changed their identity as they evolved from hunters and trappers into farmers in the "corded ware" period and under the influence of the Scandinavian Bronze Age.

By Christian Carpelan, a licentiate in archaeology and a researcher at the Univeristy of Helsinki. From Finnish Features, published by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Department of Press and Culture.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: agriculture; animalhusbandry; epigraphyandlanguage; finland; finns; freepun; genetics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; roots; sami; uralic
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1 posted on 09/26/2007 10:49:45 AM PDT by blam
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To: SunkenCiv; muawiyah
GGG Ping.
2 posted on 09/26/2007 10:50:27 AM PDT by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: blam

Their mothers.


3 posted on 09/26/2007 10:52:50 AM PDT by Busywhiskers (Strength and honor.)
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To: blam
The mtDNA motif – U5b1
4 posted on 09/26/2007 10:54:30 AM PDT by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: blam

We got ours from a pet store.......

5 posted on 09/26/2007 10:54:33 AM PDT by Red Badger (ALL that CARBON in ALL that oil & coal was once in the atmosphere. We're just putting it back!)
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To: blam

6 posted on 09/26/2007 10:55:41 AM PDT by GodBlessRonaldReagan (Big dog, big dog, bow-wow-wow! We'll crush crime, now, now, now!)
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To: blam

Finland. You heard it from me first.


7 posted on 09/26/2007 10:55:50 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: blam

I thought they were related to Hungarians.


8 posted on 09/26/2007 10:56:53 AM PDT by Perdogg (Join the NCAA basketball thread - Freemail me)
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To: The SISU kid

Self ping.....


9 posted on 09/26/2007 10:58:07 AM PDT by The SISU kid (Imagination saved us from extinction)
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To: blam
Miami.

I'm sorry.

5.56mm

10 posted on 09/26/2007 10:58:27 AM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: blam

Hannibal (St. Petersburg) MO.


11 posted on 09/26/2007 10:58:51 AM PDT by South40 (Amnesty for ILLEGALS is a slap in the face to the USBP!)
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To: blam
Meanwhile, tests on the cell nucleus indicate that Finnish genes differ to some extent from those of other Europeans. This apparent contradiction stems from the fact that the genetic diversity evidenced by mitochondrial DNA is of much older origin - indeed tens of thousands of years older - than that of the cell nucleus, whose genetic time span goes back only a few thousand years.

Yet more evidence of the Coming Finnish Hegemony! But do not fear, citizens of Earth. Ours will be an empire of fine furniture design and introspection. If you build us enough saunas, we shall treat you well.

12 posted on 09/26/2007 11:01:23 AM PDT by inkling (exurbanleague.com)
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To: blam

More than I want to know about ski jumpers.


13 posted on 09/26/2007 11:02:33 AM PDT by oldbill
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To: blam
A recent genetic link between Sami and the Volga-Ural region of Russia

Table 1. Haplogroup frequencies in different populations

14 posted on 09/26/2007 11:03:16 AM PDT by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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To: blam

bump for later


15 posted on 09/26/2007 11:06:56 AM PDT by finnman69 (cum puella incedit minore medio corpore sub quo manifestu s globus, inflammare animos)
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To: blam

sharks?


16 posted on 09/26/2007 11:07:15 AM PDT by ulm1 ("democrat" originated as an epithet "'one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses")
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To: OKSooner

Thailand?


17 posted on 09/26/2007 11:07:18 AM PDT by BipolarBob (Yes I backed over the vampire, but I swear I didn't see it in my rear view mirror.)
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To: Busywhiskers
Their mothers.

I just assumed Huck got married.

18 posted on 09/26/2007 11:10:22 AM PDT by Socratic (“Worry does not empty tomorrow of its sorrow; it empties today of its strength.” - Corrie Ten Boom)
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To: blam

My father used to tell me that a Finn was just a Swede with his brains beat out. He would only tell me that in the presence of his Finnish brother-in-law so I’m assuming there is more chain-jerking than truth in the statement.


19 posted on 09/26/2007 11:10:36 AM PDT by CommerceComet
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To: blam
The Ice Age came to an end with a phase of rapid climate change around 9500 BC. Scientists estimate that the average yearly temperature may have risen by as many as seven degrees within a few decades. What remained of the continental glacier vanished within another thousand years.

SUVs were to blame.

20 posted on 09/26/2007 11:13:08 AM PDT by shekkian
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To: blam

MY GOD!

Does CNN know?

:)


21 posted on 09/26/2007 11:14:22 AM PDT by nordicstan
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To: blam

Okay, are we finnished with all the cornball jokes now?


22 posted on 09/26/2007 11:19:56 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: oldbill
More than I want to know about ski jumpers.

Lot of good hockey players from Finland, too.

23 posted on 09/26/2007 11:23:15 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: Perdogg
I thought they were related to Hungarians.

According to the article, we are, but it doesn't explain how they got so far south. Since the Magyars didn't arrive until the second millenium AD, they could have come from the eastern Europe points of origin later, and moved in a more southely direction.

24 posted on 09/26/2007 11:29:30 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (IF TREASON IS THE QUESTION, THEN MOVEON.ORG IS THE ANSWER!)
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To: blam

And here my college prof taught that Genghis Kahn and his Mongols littered Europe with offspring.


25 posted on 09/26/2007 11:32:39 AM PDT by lilylangtree (Veni, Vidi, Vici)
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To: blam
My ex was 1/2 Finn, her mother 100%. Their eyes were more Asian than Western in shape, they thought it was because Ghengis Khan had made it to Finland.

But based solely on my experience, this article is way off base. Finns can only be the spawn of Satan, no other logical explanation exists for how that woman got to be the way she is!!!

26 posted on 09/26/2007 11:35:00 AM PDT by jdub
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To: blam; sistergoldenhair

Bump; ping.


27 posted on 09/26/2007 11:35:09 AM PDT by facedown (Armed in the Heartland)
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To: Perdogg
The Finnish language is related to Hungarian (though has changed much over time and they don't sound similar anymore). The Finnish, Hungarian, Sami, Samoyed, and Estonian languages all have their roots in Mongolian; they're all related to the language of the Mongols. So maybe the Finns have some of their origins from Mongolia? It's near eastern Siberia, as the article mentioned several times. Just a thought...
28 posted on 09/26/2007 11:37:16 AM PDT by G8 Diplomat (If Reid and Pelosi were in charge during WW2 this tagline would be in German)
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To: blam

That was very interesting.

Finns do look a bit different from their Scandinavian counterparts, and also different from Eastern Europeans. Though the language is related to Mongolian they don’t look Mongol or Asian at all. And not Slavic either. Finns generally seem to have broad, rectangular faces and it seems 9 times out of 10 blue eyes. Their hair is blond, but it’s more of a pale blond, not a golden-blond. Of course there are those who have brown hair and eyes, but the blond-blue is by far the more common phenotype. They may sound like they look like Swedes or Norwegians but they really don’t; the face shape is subtly different. It’s kinda hard to see unless you look for it.

As a hockey fan I know who the many Finnish players are in the NHL and I’m able to pick up on this. There are lots of Swedes too and the two do look different.


29 posted on 09/26/2007 11:42:46 AM PDT by G8 Diplomat (If Reid and Pelosi were in charge during WW2 this tagline would be in German)
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To: The Spirit Of Allegiance; blam; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 1ofmanyfree; 24Karet; ...

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
Gods
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Dorsal or ventral? Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
GGG managers are Blam, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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30 posted on 09/26/2007 11:44:16 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Profile updated Wednesday, September 12, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: G8 Diplomat

They’re basically mutts...like the Russians. The British are pretty much mutts too.


31 posted on 09/26/2007 11:45:56 AM PDT by bobjam
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To: Perdogg

“I thought they were related to Hungarians.”

Well, at least the language is related.
Living here in central Europe I am fascinated by the language anomalies of Hungarian and Romanian.
Both countries are surrounded by Slavic speaking countries,
but Romanian is a Latin language and Hungarian is said to be closest to Karelo-Finish.
Let me state, I am not an authority on linguistics, so I welcome more enlightenment.


32 posted on 09/26/2007 11:46:25 AM PDT by AlexW (Reporting from Bratislava, Slovakia. Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: dfwgator

Selanne, Koivu, Jokinen, Kapanen, Timmonen, Numminen, Peltonen, Kiprusoff, Toivenen, and Lehtonen, just to name a few ;) LOL


33 posted on 09/26/2007 11:47:42 AM PDT by G8 Diplomat (If Reid and Pelosi were in charge during WW2 this tagline would be in German)
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To: G8 Diplomat
The Finnish, Hungarian, Sami, Samoyed, and Estonian languages all have their roots in Mongolian; they're all related to the language of the Mongols

Mongolian is an Altaic language. Finnish, Estonian, Sami, and Hungarian are Uralic languages. Some decades ago there was a conjectural Ural-Altaic language family, but more recently this theory has been pretty well abandoned.

34 posted on 09/26/2007 11:50:31 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla (IF TREASON IS THE QUESTION, THEN MOVEON.ORG IS THE ANSWER!)
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To: AlexW
Hungarian is said to be closest to Karelo-Finish.

I dunno how different Karelo-Finnish is from regular Finnish, but Hungarian has changed so much over the years that it hardly sounds like Finnish. It could sound like Karelo-Finnish though, but not like regular. Estonian is the closest language to Finnish.
35 posted on 09/26/2007 11:51:01 AM PDT by G8 Diplomat (If Reid and Pelosi were in charge during WW2 this tagline would be in German)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

Interesting, didn’t know that! Thanks for the tidbit.


36 posted on 09/26/2007 11:52:01 AM PDT by G8 Diplomat (If Reid and Pelosi were in charge during WW2 this tagline would be in German)
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To: G8 Diplomat

Having lived amongst the Finns on the Oregon Coast, I can spot a Finn 9 times out of ten.
A hard working people, a bit different from run of the mill red-neck and good ‘ol boys thereabout, if I may say so.


37 posted on 09/26/2007 11:52:20 AM PDT by investigateworld ( Abortion stops a beating heart.)
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To: blam

Can’t you feel ‘em circling honey
Can’t you feel them schooling around
You got

Finns to the left
Finns to the right

And you’re the only bait in town.


38 posted on 09/26/2007 11:52:59 AM PDT by mrmargaritaville
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To: mrmargaritaville

Surprised it took 38 posts.


39 posted on 09/26/2007 11:55:22 AM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Still Championship U)
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To: G8 Diplomat
The argument in the article is that the Fenno-Ughric languages are quite possibly of WESTERN origin, and spread East.

At the same time the very latest research detaches all 11 modern Sa'ami languages from the Fenno-Ughric sub-group for several reasons. One is that it can now be demonstrated that the so-called "German Loan Words" in Sa'ami actually originated in Sa'ami and were passed to the Germans at an early time.

Also, with 11 clearly identifiable Sa'ami languages (some of which are mutually incomprehensible to the others), it's pretty obvious the Sa'ami languages have been developing in isolation far before contact was made with the East.

The common vocabularies occur only for distinct bodies of technology or agriculture. The Sa'ami, of course, had no agriculture!

BTW, your basic Korean and Tibetan "red heads" must necessarily have a FAR WESTERN EUROPEAN origin ~ so that gives you a good idea where the Mongols got their languages.

Note, it was very common in ancient times for tribes to trade surplus girls for horses, pigs, cows, and other useful items. The result was the passage of both genes and words to other un-related tribes. Given enough time, those genes, and words, could make the trip all the way across Eurasia and back!

40 posted on 09/26/2007 11:59:35 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: blam

I figured Finland, but maybe that’s too obvious? :-)


41 posted on 09/26/2007 12:02:42 PM PDT by Larry Lucido (Hunter 2008)
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To: G8 Diplomat
“Hungarian has changed so much over the years that it hardly sounds like Finnish.”

Well, one has to wonder what came first, the chicken or the egg.
Since this part of Europe was overrun by all sorts
of invaders...Romans, Turks, even the French, I can understand how pockets of ethnicity and language might have developed.
I should correct my statement about Karelo-Finish being closest to Hungarian.
I recall it being said that Hungarian was second only to Karelo-Finish in the difficulty of learning the language.

42 posted on 09/26/2007 12:15:33 PM PDT by AlexW (Reporting from Bratislava, Slovakia. Happy not to be back in the USA for now.)
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To: blam
Thanks, always a chance to learn:

In Swedish and Finnish universities, Licentiate's degree equals completion of the coursework required for a doctorate and a dissertation formally equivalent to half of a doctoral dissertation, likened to a MPhil degree in the British system.

The licentiate is particularly popular with students already involved in the working life, such that completing a full doctor's dissertation while working would be too difficult. The Licentiate's degree is called a filosofie licentiat in Swedish and filosofian lisensiaatti in Finnish (Licentiate of Philosophy), teologie licentiat and teologian lisensiaatti (Licentiate of Theology) etc, depending on the faculty.

Furthermore, the requisite degree for a physician's license is lisensiaatti; there is no Master's degree. (The degree lääketieteen tohtori "Doctor of Medicine" is a traditional "professors degree", or a research doctorate, with Licentiate as a prerequisite.)

43 posted on 09/26/2007 12:18:18 PM PDT by ASOC (Yeah, well, maybe - but can you *prove* it?)
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To: inkling
Yet more evidence of the Coming Finnish Hegemony! But do not fear, citizens of Earth. Ours will be an empire of fine furniture design and introspection. If you build us enough saunas, we shall treat you well.

If we don't, y'all gonna finish us off?

44 posted on 09/26/2007 1:01:10 PM PDT by GoLightly
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To: blam

It is possible and very likely people of different or mixed race abandon their own language and speak whatever the language of the area. I find it is fascinating that America, England, and Australia common language is English but their accent is totally different. The tone came about just 200-300 hundred years. The American and Australian accent did not exist before that.

Another example: It it like the people of North Eastern Thailand. The people there are Lao of Isan (30 million of them). They are not the same or speak same language as the people of central Thais or Bangkok Thais. Just across the Mekong river is the country Laos PDR (6 million people). They and Isan people speak the same language. But Lao of Isan have some Thai accent and use many Thai words as well.


45 posted on 09/26/2007 1:19:54 PM PDT by Rangerstar
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

The Magyars settled in their present-day homeland in A.D. 896.


46 posted on 09/26/2007 1:23:38 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: blam
New Zealand, I think


47 posted on 09/26/2007 1:25:39 PM PDT by william clark (DH4WH08 - Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: blam
The Finnish word for 100 is sata, the Estonian word is sada, and the Hungarian word is szaz (pronounced "sahz"). The lower numbers don't have any resemblance to Indo-European numbers, but this one looks like it may have come from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family. The Avestan word for 100 is satem and I believe the Sanskrit word is very similar, maybe satam. There were Iranian tribes such as the Scythians on the south Russian steppe in ancient times and the ancestors of the Finno-Ugric speakers may have gotten the word from them, if they hadn't learned to count to 100 before.
48 posted on 09/26/2007 1:30:00 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: blam

From Sawbucks!

You get two Finns from a Sawbuck.


49 posted on 09/26/2007 1:37:41 PM PDT by Beckwith (dhimmicrats and the liberal media have .chosen sides -- Islamofascism)
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To: blam
Saami Anonymous Project

Project Background:

The Saami's genetic distinctiveness from other European populations have made them some of the most genetically mapped indigenous populations and they are NOT as believed in classical theories and popular myth of Siberian and Asian origin, but are genetically Europeans.

Their genetics shows signs of strong foundereffects and genetic drift due to their isolation and small non-expanding population. The Saami mtDNA and Y-chromosomal are totally dominated by the maternal hg V and U5b1b1, and the paternal hg I1a and N3a.

Today the Saami culture as seen in language is quickly dimishing and is only alive in some remote locations in the far north. In recorded history the Saami culture where found almost all over Fenoscandia influencing the early Nordic and Finnish cultures in the south.

This projects goal is to gather genetic data found within the Saami areas as well as genetic footprint outside these areas combining it with geneological depth. You may join if a) your a Saami b) suspect your Saami from family oral or written history c) DNA result strongly suggest your your direct father or mother line was a Saami.

The suggested immigration route for Saami Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups:


50 posted on 09/26/2007 2:25:12 PM PDT by blam (Secure the border and enforce the law)
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