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American Neanderthal?
ABC News ^ | 02-18-2000

Posted on 01/21/2002 5:30:59 AM PST by blam

American Neanderthal?

Unearthed Native American Could Help Solve Mystery

W A S H I N G T O N, Feb. 18 —The baffling 9,300-year-old Kennewick Man, whose skeleton was unearthed in 1996 in Washington state, looks so “European” because he had Neanderthal roots, a scientist said today.
The National Park Service said earlier this month it would allow a genetic analysis of the skeleton, which some Native American groups claim as an ancestor and want buried. It has intrigued researchers because the features seem to suggest a more Caucasian than Asian origin. Others say he looks like an Ainu — the aboriginal people of Japan who are often said to be physically closer to Europeans than Japanese.

Loring Brace, a specialist in bone measurements at the University of Michigan, says he has a simple explanation for this — both Kennewick Man and the Ainu, along with the people of Europe, descended from Neanderthals.
“I have long maintained that Neanderthals are obviously the ancestors of living Europeans,” Brace told a news conference held at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS).

A Controversial Theory

“To produce a modern European out of a Neanderthal, all you have to do is reduce the robustness,” Brace said. Scale down the heavy teeth, jaws and brow of the Neanderthal and you have a European, he said.

It is a controversial theory because most scientists believe that Neanderthals were an evolutionary dead-end, people who lived side-by-side with the Cro-Magnons who were the earliest Homo sapiens but who did not interbreed with them.

But Loring said his measurements that compare the skulls of people all over the world suggest a resemblance among peoples living in Europe, along the coastlines of Asia and into ancient North America.

He also found two distinct groups among the Native Americans. “It is clear there are two major groups and they are not closely related to each other at all,” Brace said.

One group physically more resembles East Asians, especially modern Chinese, while the second looks a lot like the Ainu.
“Some of the Plains Indians don’t look Native American at all,” Brace said.
He thinks they may have come from the same lineage as Kennewick Man did. Brace has not been allowed to examine the Kennewick remains, but thinks any measurements he could make would support his theories.

Studies May Back Up Theory

Some recent evidence tends to support Brace.
In October an international team of scientists tested Neanderthal bones found in Croatia in the 1970s and found they may be just 28,000 years old, which means they would have lived side-by-side with modern humans for several thousand years.

Erik Trinkaus, an anthropologist at Washington University in St. Louis, led that study and another one that a few months earlier suggested that the 24,500-year-old bones of a child found in Portugal showed characteristics of both Neanderthals and of modern humans.

Trinkaus said he believed this suggested humans and Neanderthals interbred, but Brace said it just as easily could have been an “intermediate” form of human evolving from Neanderthal into modern Homo sapiens sapiens.

Although just a few years ago everyone agreed no humans lived in the New World until about 11,000 years ago, and that everyone trekked together over the Bering Strait into Alaska, more and more evidence suggests that people started coming over in successive waves as long as 30,000 years ago.

David Meltzer, an anthropologist at Southern Methodist University, noted that huge ice sheets would have blocked any passage from the Bering Strait down through Canada until 11,500 years ago.

A settlement in Monte Verde, Chile has been dated to 12,500 years ago, which suggests people must have come either a different way, or long before the ice sheets formed.

Theodore Schurr of the Southwest Foundation for Biomedical research in San Antonio, Texas did genetic studies that found four separate lineages in the Americas, and using a “molecular clock” that tracks the rate of mutations in DNA, dates some of them back as far as 25,000 or 30,000 years ago.

Some seem to originate in southeastern Siberia, while one seems to have links with a relatively rare lineage found in a few modern Europeans.

A Common Root

Johanna Nichols of the University of California-Berkeley, who compared the structures of Native American languages to languages found elsewhere in the world, said some of the similarities when dated using a kind of linguistic clock, could date back to a common ancestral language 30,000 years ago.

One thing is clear, Meltzer said — when people did reach what is now the continental United States they spread fast, which meant they had to be astonishingly resourceful. “In the space of 500 years they completely covered the continent,” he said. “These folk had no neighbors.”

And most modern hunter-gatherers depend heavily on their neighbors for information about the landscape.

The early colonists of the Americas had no one to ask where to find water, food or herbs to cure their ills. And they had few sources of fresh genes. “You can only marry your sister so many times,” Meltzer said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: davidmeltzer; evolution; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals; preclovis
Repost of an old article. There are no skeletons/evidence of American Indians/Native Americans (as we know them today) that are older than 6,000 years old in the Americas.

There will be a one hour special, "Neanderthals On Trial", on PBS, 1-22-2002.

1 posted on 01/21/2002 5:30:59 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
"Scale down the heavy teeth, jaws and brow of the Neanderthal and you have a European, he said. "

Or the Junior Senator from New York.

2 posted on 01/21/2002 5:42:25 AM PST by billorites
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To: blam
One theory has it that Europeans derive larger noses, lighter skin, blonde hair, and more body hair -- among other adaptations for colder climates -- from Neanderthals. Presumably, the superior Cro-Magnon invaders killed the Neanderthal men and mated with the women.
3 posted on 01/21/2002 5:43:52 AM PST by Grand Old Partisan
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To: blam
The baffling 9,300-year-old Kennewick Man, whose skeleton was unearthed in 1996 in Washington state, looks so “European” because he had Neanderthal roots, a scientist said today.

Maybe it's baffling because there is something wrong with the ability to date these bodies. Or maybe it's baffling because Neanderthals aren't real.
4 posted on 01/21/2002 5:44:11 AM PST by AD from SpringBay
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To: blam
Try this out. When the first skull of was found in the Neandethal region, it was taken to a medical doctor who diagnosed the person as having severe ricketts, a bone deformity condition caused by a lack of vitamin D.
5 posted on 01/21/2002 5:47:29 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: blam
It is a controversial theory because most scientists believe that Neanderthals were an evolutionary dead-end...

There ya go - evolutionary "science" is a belief system.

6 posted on 01/21/2002 5:48:04 AM PST by ValerieUSA
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To: blam
American Neanderthal? So? I've been compared to a Neanderthal on various occasions ... ;)
7 posted on 01/21/2002 5:53:40 AM PST by BluH2o
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To: Blood of Tyrants
"Try this out. When the first skull of was found in the Neandethal region, it was taken to a medical doctor who diagnosed the person as having severe ricketts, a bone deformity condition caused by a lack of vitamin D."

Yup. The lack of a sufficent amount of vitamin D was the driving force for lighter skinned humans.

8 posted on 01/21/2002 6:01:42 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
But there IS evidence that there were humans here before 10,000 years ago...whatever their origin. I think the 'midland' man (who was really a woman) is one example. There were others somewhere in southern California. By the way, I see no conflict between evolution and religion. Am amazed by those who are threatened by that branch of academia which studies evolution.
9 posted on 01/21/2002 6:16:41 AM PST by Dudoight
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To: Dudoight
Yup. Check this out: Calico: A 200,000 Year Old Site In The Americas?
10 posted on 01/21/2002 6:20:48 AM PST by blam
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To: billorites
PLEASE! Let's not insult our ancestors! Besides, Neanderthal's did not have coffee-can ankles!
11 posted on 01/21/2002 6:24:26 AM PST by donozark
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To: blam
Fascintating info. Thanks. Keep us informed!!
12 posted on 01/21/2002 6:35:28 AM PST by Dudoight
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To: AD from SpringBay
Maybe it's baffling because there is something wrong with the ability to date these bodies. Or maybe it's baffling because Neanderthals aren't real.

A theory I've heard is that Neanderthals were actually modern man who happened to live several hundred years. As a result of the long lifespan and the diet they had, the bone above the brows and the jaws built up to form a sort of "flying buttress" of bone to assist in the chewing of the tough foods.

BTW--I agree with the date process. It's fatally flawed and doesn't give the correct date at all.

13 posted on 01/21/2002 6:37:05 AM PST by ShadowAce
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To: ShadowAce
The last I recall reading, the Neanderthals were around for about 250,000 years. I don't know what was their lifespan.
14 posted on 01/21/2002 10:55:00 AM PST by blam
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To: blam
Evening bump.
15 posted on 01/21/2002 3:37:11 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
Love these articles you post. You don't seem real big on ping lists but I would appriciate one thrown my way.
16 posted on 01/21/2002 3:38:55 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: blam
He's quite obviously French, not Neanderthal. From the LaBarre area I would guess...


17 posted on 01/21/2002 3:54:19 PM PST by Redcloak
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To: AD from SpringBay
Or maybe it's baffling because Neanderthals aren't real.

Huh? Are they a figment of our collective imaginations?

18 posted on 01/21/2002 4:02:39 PM PST by Junior
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs"
19 posted on 01/21/2002 4:02:50 PM PST by blam
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To: Blood of Tyrants
The first Neanderthal skeleton was of a middle-aged man with obvious problems. Later Neanderthal skeletons have included individuals without the physical problems of that first individual. Neanderthals have some definite physical differences from modern man, included different dentiture, and the angle at which the spinal cord enters the skull is different than Homo Sapien Sapien.
20 posted on 01/21/2002 4:09:01 PM PST by Junior
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To: blam;evolution
indexing
21 posted on 01/21/2002 4:11:53 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: farmfriend
Other articles relating to evolution.
22 posted on 01/21/2002 4:13:31 PM PST by farmfriend
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To: AD from SpringBay
What's baffling is the idiotic federal law that allows "native Americans" to seize and destroy scientific evidence (i.e. bones and artifacts) that are the only way to figure out how and when North America was populated.

When the Taliban destroyed ancient sculpture there was international outrage. When "native Americans" do it it's social justice.

23 posted on 01/21/2002 4:22:44 PM PST by BigBobber
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To: Redcloak
You talk about a dead ringer, that's amazing.
24 posted on 01/21/2002 4:23:16 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: farmfriend
More articles and links: Earliest Americans Seen As More Diverse
25 posted on 01/21/2002 4:54:50 PM PST by blam
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To: MissAmericanPie
Redheads 'are neanderthal'

BY A CORRESPONDENT

RED hair may be the genetic legacy of Neanderthals, scientists believe.

Researchers at the John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford say that the so-called “ginger gene” which gives people red hair, fair skin and freckles could be up to 100,000 years old.

They claim that their discovery points to the gene having originated in Neanderthal man who lived in Europe for 200,000 years before Homo sapien settlers, the ancestors of modern man, arrived from Africa about 40,000 years ago.

Rosalind Harding, the research team leader, said: “The gene is certainly older than 50,000 years and it could be as old as 100,000 years.

“An explanation is that it comes from Neanderthals.” It is estimated that at least 10 per cent of Scots have red hair and a further 40 per cent carry the gene responsible, which could account for their once fearsome reputation as fighters.

Neanderthals have been characterised as migrant hunters and violent cannibals who probably ate most of their meat raw. They were taller and stockier than Homo sapiens, but with shorter limbs, bigger faces and noses, receding chins and low foreheads.

The two species overlapped for a period of time and the Oxford research appears to suggests that they must have successfully interbred for the “ginger gene” to survive. Neanderthals became extinct about 28,000 years ago, the last dying out in southern Spain and southwest France.

26 posted on 01/21/2002 4:59:23 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
That is very interesting, the Bible speaks to me of two different creations of man. The sixth day man, hunter gatherers, made of grey clay, and then Adam and Eve, farmers, made from red clay.

The thing that distinguished Adam and Eve was the ability for their blood to come up into their face, in other words the ability to blush. I am always amazed at the similarities between scriptures and science, like in this instance speaking of two different types of man, but drawing two totally different conclusions.

27 posted on 01/21/2002 5:50:14 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie
"I am always amazed at the similarities between scriptures and science."

I agree. I can make them 'work' with each other. However, I never discuss religion on FR. (people always want to argue with me over evolution, I won't)

28 posted on 01/21/2002 6:18:49 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
I got into it once on an evolution thread in an attempt to make people think, but gave it up, it is one of those vain arguments.
29 posted on 01/21/2002 6:20:55 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: MissAmericanPie;blam;Gods, Graves, Glyphs;
I have never heard that story before, guess I am related to Adam and Eve then.

LOL!

To find all articles tagged or indexed using 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

Click here: 'Gods, Graves, Glyphs'

30 posted on 01/21/2002 7:17:10 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Thanks Ernest. Good morning bump.
31 posted on 01/22/2002 5:03:53 AM PST by blam
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To: Blood of Tyrants
That was in the 1800's. Forensic science has advanced considerably since then.
32 posted on 01/22/2002 5:09:22 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ShadowAce
?????

There are some problems with radiocarbon dating. The system assumes the percentage of radioactive carbon isotopes in the atmosphere is constant and this has recently been proved to be incorrect. Volcanic eruptions effect radiocarbon dating.

However, the basic PREMISE of the system is correct. We only need to make certain corrections to account for these discrepancies.

There are other problems which appeared in a recent study of the "Shroud of Turin". Apparently some material of organic origins like cloths and tapestries can acquire, over a long time frame, a heavy coating of bioplastic produced by organisms living on the original organic substrate, which can then skew the results to indicate a more recent dating. The solution is to remove the bioplastic before initiating the radiocarbon testing.

The studies I have read indicate ALL early hominid fossils demonstrate a very SHORT life span as well as numerous bone fractures and other kinds of skeletal damage which indicated a very dangerous, rough type of life. I never saw anything to indicate any early hominids lived for "hundreds" of years.

33 posted on 01/22/2002 5:19:11 AM PST by ZULU
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To: BigBobber
This is what happens when we let politics - politically correct politics - dictate scientific policy.
34 posted on 01/22/2002 5:20:42 AM PST by ZULU
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To: Redcloak
Since the actor is question is a left-wing liberal, a primitive connection is most possible.
35 posted on 01/22/2002 5:21:33 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
And doctor rarely, if ever, get the chance to diagnose ricketts, either. 150-5000 years ago, it was much more common.
36 posted on 01/22/2002 5:45:27 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants
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To: ZULU
There is a non-fiction book ("Buried Alive") written by a dentist who has performed several tests on Neanderthal skulls and jaws. I cannot remember the author's name, but was pretty convincing. Using several pieces of equipment, he came to the conclusion that the skulls of Neanderthals could not be produced in only 40 years (the common accepted lifespan of Neanderthals).
37 posted on 01/22/2002 5:46:51 AM PST by ShadowAce
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To: blam
'First Americans were Australian'

The first Americans were descended from Australian aborigines, according to evidence in a new BBC documentary.

The skulls suggest faces like those of Australian aborigines

The programme, Ancient Voices, shows that the dimensions of prehistoric skulls found in Brazil match those of the aboriginal peoples of Australia and Melanesia. Other evidence suggests that these first Americans were later massacred by invaders from Asia.

Until now, native Americans were believed to have descended from Asian ancestors who arrived over a land bridge between Siberia and Alaska and then migrated across the whole of north and south America. The land bridge was formed 11,000 years ago during the ice age, when sea level dropped.

However, the new evidence shows that these people did not arrive in an empty wilderness. Stone tools and charcoal from the site in Brazil show evidence of human habitation as long ago as 50,000 years.

The site is at Serra Da Capivara in remote northeast Brazil. This area is now inhabited by the descendants of European settlers and African slaves who arrived just 500 years ago.

But cave paintings found here provided the first clue to the existence of a much older people.

The costumes and rituals shown in rock art survived in Terra del Fuego

Images of giant armadillos, which died out before the last ice age, show the artists who drew them lived before even the natives who greeted the Europeans.

These Asian people have facial features described as mongoloid. However, skulls dug from a depth equivalent to 9,000 to 12,000 years ago are very different.

Walter Neves, an archaeologist from the University of Sao Paolo, has taken extensive skull measurements from dozens of skulls, including the oldest, a young woman who has been named Lucia.

"The measurements show that Lucia was anything but mongoloid," he says.

Walter Neves has measured hundreds of skulls

The next step was to reconstruct a face from Lucia's skull. First, a CAT scan of the skull was done, to allow an accurate working model to be made.

Then a forensic artist, Richard Neave from the University of Manchester, UK, created a face for Lucia. The result was surprising: "It has all the features of a negroid face," says Dr Neave.

Lucia's skull is 12,000 years old The skull dimensions and facial features match most closely the native people of Australia and Melanesia. These people date back to about 60,000 years, and were themselves descended from the first humans, who left Africa about 100,000 years ago.

But how could the early Australians have travelled more than 13,500 kilometres (8,450 miles) at that time? The answer comes from more cave paintings, this time from the Kimberley, a region at the northern tip of Western Australia.

Here, Grahame Walsh, an expert on Australian rock art, found the oldest painting of a boat anywhere in the world. The style of the art means it is at least 17,000 years old, but it could be up to 50,000 years old.

And the crucial detail is the high prow of the boat. This would have been unnecessary for boats used in calm, inland waters. The design suggests it was used on the open ocean.

Fantastic voyage

Archaeologists speculate that such an incredible sea voyage, from Australia to Brazil, would not have been undertaken knowingly but by accident.

Just three years ago, five African fishermen were caught in a storm and a few weeks later were washed up on the shores of South America. Two of the fishermen died, but three made it alive.

Walter Neves says the negroid people disappear 7,000 years ago

But if the first Americans had drifted from Australia, where are their descendants now? Again, the skulls suggest an answer.

The shape of the skulls changes between 9,000 and 7,000 years ago from being exclusively negroid to exclusively mongoloid. Combined with rock art evidence of increasing violence at this time, it appears that the mongoloid people from the north invaded and wiped out the original Americans.

Fuegean Cristina Calderon may be one of the few surviving descendants of the first Americans

The only evidence of any survivors comes from Terra del Fuego, the islands at the remotest southern tip of South America.

The pre-European Fuegeans, who lived stone age-style lives until this century, show hybrid skull features which could have resulted from intermarrying between mongoloid and negroid peoples. Their rituals and traditions also bear some resemblance to the ancient rock art in Brazil.

The identity of the first Americans is an emotive and controversial question. But the evidence from Brazil, and a handful of people who still live at the very tip of South America, suggests that the Americas have been home to a greater diversity of humans than previously thought - and for much longer.

38 posted on 01/22/2002 6:05:49 AM PST by blam
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To: ShadowAce
I wonder what was the basis of his conclusion that such bone development could not have occurred within 40 years? Bone growth rates in modern Homo sapiens - the kind of people who live indoors most of the year, work at a desk, and never have to bring their next meal with a hand axe?
39 posted on 01/22/2002 8:10:11 AM PST by ZULU
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To: ZULU
You may be onto something there.

The Neanderthal were almost certainly collectivists, like the British. This is strongly suggested by their inability to form large bands and tribal groups. Being collectivists, they would have had a hard time making efficient use of resources. This would translate into smaller bands; no more than a dozen individuals. A collectivist mindset would also explain the glacial pace of their stone tool development. Such a society would be more inclined to stifle innovation. Neanderthal tools remained nearly static in form for thousands of years.

Cro Magnon, on the other hand, was likely less burdened with these economic hadicaps. Their tool development was explosive compared to Neanderthal. They also were better at exploiting their environment and formed larger bands. This, in turn, would later allow individuals to pursue other forms of labor, such as metallurgy or the production of trade goods. Technical innovation was encouraged and further enriched the society as a whole.

The connection to modern Britain should be abundantly clear!

40 posted on 01/22/2002 8:14:46 AM PST by Redcloak
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To: blam;Grand Old Partisan;Blood of Tyrants;ValerieUSA;Dudoight ;
A Nova special just came on PBS (following the California Rep Candidates debate for Governor ) regarding the Neanderthal .

Anyone seen this?

41 posted on 01/22/2002 7:08:02 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"Anyone seen this?"

Shoot no. I've been alerting everyone to this program for a week and forgot that I had a meeting tonight and missed it. Was it any good?

42 posted on 01/22/2002 7:19:18 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
My wife and I watched and thought it was very fascinating!

Had as much to say about how the scientist preconceived notions influence how he interprets what he sees!

43 posted on 01/22/2002 7:59:36 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
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Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

44 posted on 07/20/2006 10:14:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Wednesday, June 21, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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45 posted on 10/06/2006 10:50:55 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (If I had a nut allergy, I'd be outta here. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: blam

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·

 
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Note: this topic is from 2002.

Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.
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46 posted on 12/22/2008 6:54:01 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile finally updated Saturday, December 6, 2008 !!!)
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