Posted on 02/24/2006 8:40:59 AM PST by conserv371
Right now there is huge debate going on about whether the church will go through the tribulation. After studying some passages that seem to convincingly lean toward a pre-trib rapture. First of all, Jesus in Luke 17:26, states that "And as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of Man." We learn of two key individuals during that time Enoch and Noah. Enoch who some have seen as a type of the church is translated before the Flood while Noah is delivered through the world-wide judgment.
We also find in Luke 12:37-40 gives evidence it could happen at second or third watch like a thief and to be ready since the Son of man comes at an hour when you don't think He will come. Jesus further exhorts that servants may start treating fellow servants harshly and getting drunk. The lord will come in a day when he looks not for him and at an hour when he is not aware. This seems to suggest some semblance of peace since drunkeness occurs in this case with ease. In fact, the servant has said in his heart, "My lord delays in his coming"; These give the appearance of a lack of persecution going on world-wide since the servant is not watching. With persecution, there would be no time for drunkeness since people would be hiding for their lives.
James states in 5:8b "for the coming of the Lord draws near."
In I Thess. 5:2, the Apostle Paul states that "the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night." What does a professional thief do? He plunders the house without the occupants waking up until morning to find their valuables gone. Again there is calm while the robbery is taking place. Furthermore Paul states, they shall say Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them, as birth pains upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. This seems to indicate there is a them and us. Sudden destruction on them but you are not surprised. In vs. 9, 10 he states "For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. The tribulation is the wrath of the Lamb so why would the Jesus put wrath of His spiritual body after His physical body experienced God's wrath.
Also, in II Thess. we find that the Holy Spirit with whom believers are sealed with is prevent the mystery of iniquity to work fully. The Holy Spirit must be taken out of the way before the wicked one "Anti-christ" is revealed. All mention of the churches goes silent after chapter 3 of Revelation while the man of peace (Anti-christ)on the white horse shows up in Rev. 6. The last church (Laodicean church) is not looking for the rapture. Also, Christ states to the church of Philadelphia that he will keep them from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. (Tribulation)
No, the truth is we must watch and be ready for Christ's imminent return. I believe the rapture will be a cataclysmic event that make the world beg for a ruler of peace to calm down the world. God likes to have major events to display His power so it would seem likely that the Tribulation will begin with the vanishing of Christ's spiritual body which states in Romans 11:25 requires the fulness of the Gentiles be come in before it happens which is when God will take away the blindness of Israel. Right now, when a google search is done, one can see many people turning to christ. The harvest rate is accelerating. Jesus at Rev. 22:20 says, "Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
But then we know that this is not really the first ressurection...What about when Jesus went to Hell and unlocked the gates that were holding the Old Testament Saints...The place that was called Paradise...
The first ressurection has many parts to it...
The harvest of the Saints has three parts...The 'Firstfruits', the "Harvest", and the 'Gleanings'...Makes for a good bible study...
Notice: we will meet him in the air...This is totally different than when 'all' eyes shall see him when he (and we) show up again at the end of the tribulation...
People will be saved during the tribulation...That ressurection will be the gleanings of the crop...All are 'parts' of the first ressurection, the ressurection of the church...
Really??? And where's the Lord going to be for that 1000 years??? He will be on earth to rule as the King of Kings with His Saints (us) at His side...
No matter what the arguments are, my ready answer is: God will do what God wants to do, how he wants to do it, in his time and in his way. And no matter how many hours we argue over it, nothing can change that fact.
I just want to be ready.
Amen, FRiend!
To conserv371, blue-duncan, others;
Thank you for starting this thread. Considering my much limited understanding, I think we are in agreement. At least I am able to fit a few more pieces of the "puzzle" together using your/my interpretation of Scripture.
To GrandEagle, bremenboy, others;
Don't even joke about being a heretic, because you are obviously not. Let us also agree that which of us is wrong, it is we and our lack of total knowledge of God's Word that is wrong and that God's Word is right.
We may be "opposites". I was raised in a church that never mentioned a "rapture" or a "millennium". I literally stumbled into this way many years ago and am still excited over it. Allow me to add a couple of verses to ponder upon:
1 Thessalonians ch5 vs 9-11: "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. Who died for us, that,whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."
Luke ch21 vs28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."
Are we told to stockpile food? To build bomb shelters?
Nope. We're told to "look up", and to "fear not". Interesting. I wonder what Paul means by a mystery when he writes in 1 Corinthians ch15 vs 51 where it is written, "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
What is this "mystery"? Is something revealed here we did not know before?
Either way FRiend, avoid the temptation to view the "rapture crowd" as slightly less informed. What if we are right? {You'll be in for a pleasant surprise!} What if we are wrong? What if someday we look out our window and find ourselves in the middle of the tribulation?
Well then I suggest we are going to need people like you praying earnestly for us, since undoubtedly many will have their faith shaken.
I've ranted long enough. Let me say that I appreciate all the opinions.
I said today I was taking a break and just read, but then I decided to type this up for you
After the Apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 about the catching up of the Saints, both living and dead, he immediately tells us in 1 Thessalonians chapter 5, verses 1-2, that this catching up of the Saints is what Jesus taught about, that He would come as a thief in the night.
"But the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night"
Verse 4, "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief."
Paul then refers to the Great Tribulation
Verse 8 "But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation."
Verse 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
The Apostle Paul clearly teaches us in this chapter, that those who are left behind are appointed unto God's wrath, but not those who are of the day. This agrees with Jesus' teachings in Matthew chapters 24 and 25
God Bless
These passages imply we won't be surprised by that day. They don't say we won't experience that day.
Paul then refers to the Great Tribulation
Verse 8 "But let us who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for a helmet, the hope of salvation."
Verse 9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
The wrath doesn't begin until the 1st Bowl of wrath.
The Apostle Paul clearly teaches us in this chapter, that those who are left behind are appointed unto God's wrath, but not those who are of the day. This agrees with Jesus' teachings in Matthew chapters 24 and 25.
Agreed, but that wrath (God's wrath) begins at the 1st bowl, not before.
Question
Is the rapture before or after the seven-year tribulation?
Answer
It's become kind of popular today, in the last two or three years, to believe in the rapture occurring at the end of the tribulation. There has been three positions, historically, "pre-trib," "mid-trib," and "post-trib." What that means is the rapture occurs at the end of the tribulation: "post-tribulation;" the middle of the tribulation: "mid-tribulation;" the beginning of the tribulation: "pre-tribulation." Now if you wanted to catalog me I would have to claim to be a "pre-tribulationist"--I believe the Church will be taken out before the tribulation.
Now if you would like a full-length answer on that we have a series of tapes on that very subject, so I am not going into that other than to just give you two reasons, that I believe, are the most difficult arguments for a "post-tribulationalist" to deal with. If a person comes along, and this is popular today, there are a lot of people who want to go through the tribulation. We have got some sort of a martyr-complex. You know in a mechanized society, and a very high-powered society, and a very easy kind of existence, a lot of people kind of think that it is neat to go through the tribulation. They see the movie about "A Thief in the Night" and they can see themselves running from the beast and all this intrigue. Now I am saying this truly, because this is happening in the minds of--not the educational people, not the theology people, so much as it is a popular kind of a thing. I think Hal Lindsey's books, which took a firm pre-tribulational stand, forced some theologians out of the woodwork to write on a post-tribulational position. So you have the theological battle, and it is going on, on those two positions, but you have this new popular thing, and sometimes I will listen to those Christian television programs and they are talking about, "Well, you know I am not convinced that we are going to be taken out. I think we may go through....oh......." And it is all very dramatic.
Listen folks. I don't want to be there--it doesn't sound good to me at all. If I had my choice of being here with the beast or being in heaven with Jesus--it isn't even a question! Aside from that emotional argument which doesn't hold water--that's just me.
There are two primary things that you have to deal with if you are going to take a post-tribulation position:
1. The sheep and goat judgment. In Matthew, chapter 25, at the end of the tribulation period--Matthew 25, you have a judgment occurring. We know that it is at the end of the tribulation because it discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. We know that the "abomination of desolation" occurs in the tribulation (24:15 and all these things and so forth), and then verse 31 of Chapter 25, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory." Now what's that? That's not the rapture is it? That has got to be the Second Coming to set up the Kingdom--"when he comes in His glory to sit on His throne."
Now the post-tribulation position says this--watch--that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return--you go through the tribulation and then "up and back." There is a big problem with that and it is this: if all the regenerate people go up and come back, then how come when Christ comes back the first thing He does is separate the sheep from the goats--who are the sheep? See? who are the sheep? They can't be Christians because there aren't any left--they all got raptured. But if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the sheep at the end of the tribulation--understand?
So if you jam it all at the end--I see that as the major problem of the post-tribulational view--where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment, because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back, then there aren't any sheep left--it's not going to be a problem to say, "You sheep come over and go into my kingdom, and you goats here..."--there aren't any sheep left, they have already been raptured and glorified and all set. That's the first problem.
2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1. The second problem, and I think that they have to face if they take a post-tribulation view is 2 Thessalonians 2:1--these are primary arguments--there are many others, but these are just ones that I'll give you quickly. 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and I think maybe that these are the two best arguments against a post-tribulation position. Some of you don't even know what I'm talking about--you just relax and do whatever you want and we will be back in a minute.
2 Thessalonians 2:1, "Now we beseech you brethren,” now listen, “By the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.” "Jesus is coming,” says Paul to the Thessalonians, “and we will be gathered together unto him.” Episunagoge, gathering together. Its used one other time in the New Testament, that’s Hebrews 10:25. And in Hebrews 10:25 it says “forsake not the sunagogoge, the assembling of yourselves together.” It is a word reserved in the New Testament for gathering together of believers. So, the Thessalonians Christians were saying, "Oh, are we already in the time of trouble, is it already too late. And he says Now wait a minute, we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus and our, our specific gathering together to him, don’t be shaking let no man deceive you." And then he says, "I believe that after will come the day of the Lord. And then the falling away and the man of sin is revealed and all of that." But I see is the primary event the gathering together, a special gathering together, a special coming together of the church, a unique one separate from anything else. And I think Thessalonians 2:1 has a great amount of weight towards that end.
So, my belief is that the church does not go through the tribulation. And again I I would say that that’s just putting it together the best way I can, it’s a very difficult problem. There are many other reasons that I have tried to share with you and I stand on that ground and we’ll find out sooner or later. And I feel like Dr. Saucy who said, “I know there are some errors in my Theology, I just wish I knew where they were.” And there will be some somewhere and we’ll see whether that works out.
Your using Matthew 24 to contradict the rapture, you will be successful.
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
It appears that here, the evil ones are taken away and the good are left behind. Contrast this to Revelation 14
Rev 14:15-20 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
Here the good are taken away and the evil are left behind. If we do not distinguish these two events it is easy to understand why there is so much confusion. In Matthew 24, the evil ones are taken to judgment. In Revelation 14 the evil ones are left behind for judgment. Try to place these two events on a timeline as you see fit.
The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture came about to try to fit many pieces of scripture together. Just like any creed or doctrine, it fails when people cannot remember how it came about.
Joseph was a type of Christ. He came to rule Egypt, second only to Pharaoh in power. That Christ will reveal himself to Israel was prefigured in Joseph revealing himself to his brothers. Do you think it is significant that he sent all of the gentiles out of the room first?
Seven
"Surely I come quickly."
"Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus."
"Give me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,"
(till Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven)
That is lovely. I've never seen it before. Thank you so much for sharing it here.
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance,
I also will keep you from the hour of testing,
that hour which is about to come upon the whole world,
to test those who dwell on the earth."
The Word of The Master, Jesus, Revelation 3:10
Congrats to you for seeing the fallacy of the rapture theory.
As you are probably aware, the theory was propounded by a delusional sick woman who after getting better said it felt like an evil dream to her. Iirc, this was approx the year 1840, her name was Margeret MacDonald, iirc. Prior to this there was no such teaching as the rapture. There will be many who will fall for the "first jesus to come". Problem is that he is the wrong one. In closing, God never lets his children shirk from a fight, he expects his children to fight evil, not fly away from it.
hehe- I'm not even a pre-millenialist, much less pre-trib!
I prefer the view that we are here to occupy this territory until He comes. Dominion and authority, not failure and escapism.
I know I know. Flame away! :)
Matthew 25
"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Five of them were foolish and five were wise. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.
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