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Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins
NY Times ^ | August 6, 2002 | By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 08/11/2002 3:59:04 PM PDT by vannrox



August 6, 2002

Skulls Found in Africa and in Europe Challenge Theories of Human Origins

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Two ancient skulls, one from central Africa and the other from the Black Sea republic of Georgia, have shaken the human family tree to its roots, sending scientists scrambling to see if their favorite theories are among the fallen fruit.

Probably so, according to paleontologists, who may have to make major revisions in the human genealogy and rethink some of their ideas about the first migrations out of Africa by human relatives.

Yet, despite all the confusion and uncertainty the skulls have caused, scientists speak in superlatives of their potential for revealing crucial insights in the evidence-disadvantaged field of human evolution.

The African skull dates from nearly 7 million years ago, close to the fateful moment when the human and chimpanzee lineages went their separate ways. The 1.75-million-year-old Georgian skull could answer questions about the first human ancestors to leave Africa, and why they ventured forth.

Still, it was a shock, something of a one-two punch, for two such momentous discoveries to be reported independently in a single week, as happened in July.

"I can't think of another month in the history of paleontology in which two such finds of importance were published," said Dr. Bernard Wood, a paleontologist at George Washington University. "This really exposes how little we know of human evolution and the origin of our own genus Homo."

Every decade or two, a fossil discovery upsets conventional wisdom. One more possible "missing link" emerges. An even older member of the hominid group, those human ancestors and their close relatives (but not apes), comes to light. Some fossils also show up with attributes so puzzling that scientists cannot decide where they belong, if at all, in the human lineage.

At each turn, the family tree, once drawn straight as a ponderosa pine, has had to be reconfigured with more branches leading here and there and, in some cases, apparently nowhere.

"When I went to medical school in 1963, human evolution looked like a ladder," Dr. Wood said. The ladder, he explained, stepped from monkey to modern human through a progression of intermediates, each slightly less apelike than the previous one.

But the fact that modern Homo sapiens is the only hominid living today is quite misleading, an exception to the rule dating only since the demise of Neanderthals some 30,000 years ago. Fossil hunters keep finding multiple species of hominids that overlapped in time, reflecting evolutionary diversity in response to new or changed circumstances. Not all of them could be direct ancestors of Homo sapiens. Some presumably were dead-end side branches.

So a tangled bush has now replaced a tree as the ascendant imagery of human evolution. Most scientists studying the newfound African skull think it lends strong support to hominid bushiness almost from the beginning.

That is one of several reasons Dr. Daniel E. Lieberman, a biological anthropologist at Harvard, called the African specimen "one of the greatest paleontological discoveries of the past 100 years."

The skull was uncovered in the desert of Chad by a French-led team under the direction of Dr. Michel Brunet of the University of Poitiers. Struck by the skull's unusual mix of apelike and evolved hominid features, the discoverers assigned it to an entirely new genus and species — Sahelanthropus tchadensis. It is more commonly called Toumai, meaning "hope of life" in the local language.

In announcing the discovery in the July 11 issue of the journal Nature, Dr. Brunet's group said the fossils — a cranium, two lower jaw fragments and several teeth — promised "to illuminate the earliest chapter in human evolutionary history."

The age, face and geography of the new specimen were all surprises.

About a million years older than any previously recognized hominid, Toumai lived close to the time that molecular biologists think was the earliest period in which the human lineage diverged from the chimpanzee branch. The next oldest hominid appears to be the 6-million-year-old Orrorin tugenensis, found two years ago in Kenya but not yet fully accepted by many scientists. After it is Ardipithecus ramidus, which probably lived 4.4 million to 5.8 million years ago in Ethiopia.

"A lot of interesting things were happening earlier than we previously knew," said Dr. Eric Delson, a paleontologist at the City University of New York and the American Museum of Natural History.

The most puzzling aspect of the new skull is that it seems to belong to two widely separated evolutionary periods. Its size indicates that Toumai had a brain comparable to that of a modern chimp, about 320 to 380 cubic centimeters. Yet the face is short and relatively flat, compared with the protruding faces of chimps and other early hominids. Indeed, it is more humanlike than the "Lucy" species, Australopithecus afarensis, which lived more than 3.2 million years ago.

"A hominid of this age," Dr. Wood wrote in Nature, "should certainly not have the face of a hominid less than one-third of its geological age."

Scientists suggest several possible explanations. Toumai could somehow be an ancestor of modern humans, or of gorillas or chimps. It could be a common ancestor of humans and chimps, before the divergence.

"But why restrict yourself to thinking this fossil has to belong to a lineage that leads to something modern?" Dr. Wood asked. "It's perfectly possible this belongs to a branch that's neither chimp nor human, but has become extinct."

Dr. Wood said the "lesson of history" is that fossil hunters are more likely to find something unrelated directly to living creatures — more side branches to tangle the evolutionary bush. So the picture of human genealogy gets more complex, not simpler.

A few scientists sound cautionary notes. Dr. Delson questioned whether the Toumai face was complete enough to justify interpretations of more highly evolved characteristics. One critic argued that the skull belonged to a gorilla, but that is disputed by scientists who have examined it.

Just as important perhaps is the fact that the Chad skull was found off the beaten path of hominid research. Until now, nearly every early hominid fossil has come from eastern Africa, mainly Ethiopia, Kenya and Tanzania, or from southern Africa. Finding something very old and different in central Africa should expand the hunt.

"In hindsight, we should have expected this," Dr. Lieberman said. "Africa is big and we weren't looking at all of Africa. This fossil is a wake-up call. It reminds us that we're missing large portions of the fossil record."

Although overshadowed by the news of Toumai, the well-preserved 1.75-million-year-old skull from Georgia was also full of surprises, in this case concerning a later chapter in the hominid story. It raised questions about the identity of the first hominids to be intercontinental travelers, who set in motion the migrations that would eventually lead to human occupation of the entire planet.

The discovery, reported in the July 5 issue of the journal Science, was made at the medieval town Dmanisi, 50 miles southwest of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital. Two years ago, scientists announced finding two other skulls at the same site, but the new one appears to be intriguingly different and a challenge to prevailing views.

Scientists have long been thought that the first hominid out-of-Africa migrants were Homo erectus, a species with large brains and a stature approaching human dimensions. The species was widely assumed to have stepped out in the world once they evolved their greater intelligence and longer legs and invented more advanced stone tools.

The first two Dmanisi skulls confirmed one part of the hypothesis. They bore a striking resemblance to the African version of H. erectus, sometimes called Homo ergaster. Their discovery was hailed as the most ancient undisputed hominid fossils outside Africa.

But the skulls were associated with more than 1,000 crudely chipped cobbles, simple choppers and scrapers, not the more finely shaped and versatile tools that would be introduced by H. erectus more than 100,000 years later. That undercut the accepted evolutionary explanation for the migrations.

The issue has become even more muddled with the discovery of the third skull by international paleontologists led by Dr. David Lordkipanidze of the Georgian State Museum in Tbilisi. It is about the same age and bears an overall resemblance to the other two skulls. But it is much smaller.

"These hominids are more primitive than we thought," Dr. Lordkipanidze said in an article in the current issue of National Geographic magazine. "We have a new puzzle."

To the discoverers, the skull has the canine teeth and face of Homo habilis, a small hominid with long apelike arms that evolved in Africa before H. erectus. And the size of its cranium suggests a substantially smaller brain than expected for H. erectus.

In their journal report, the discovery team estimated the cranial capacity of the new skull to be about 600 cubic centimeters, compared with about 780 and 650 c.c.'s for the other Dmanisis specimens. That is "near the mean" for H. habilis, they noted. Modern human braincases are about 1,400 cubic centimeters.

Dr. G. Philip Rightmire, a paleontologist at the State University of New York at Binghamton and a member of the discovery team, said that if the new skull had been found before the other two, it might have been identified as H. habilis.

Dr. Ian Tattersall, a specialist in human evolution at the natural history museum in New York City, said the specimen was "the first truly African-looking thing to come from outside Africa." More than anything else, he said, it resembles a 1.9-million-year-old Homo habilis skull from Kenya.

For the time being, however, the fossil is tentatively labeled Homo erectus, though it stretches the definition of that species. Scientists are pondering what lessons they can learn from it about the diversity of physical attributes within a single species.

Dr. Fred Smith, a paleontologist who has just become dean of arts and sciences at Loyola University in Chicago, agreed that his was a sensible approach, at least until more fossils turn up. Like other scientists, he doubted that two separate hominid species would have occupied the same habitat at roughly the same time. Marked variations within a species are not uncommon; brain size varies within living humans by abut 15 percent.

"The possibility of variations within a species should never be excluded," Dr. Smith said. "There's a tendency now for everybody to see three bumps on a fossil instead of two and immediately declare that to be another species."

Some discoverers of the Dmanisi skull speculated that these hominids might be descended from ancestors like H. habilis that had already left Africa. In that case, it could be argued that H. erectus itself evolved not in Africa but elsewhere from an ex-African species. If so, the early Homo genealogy would have to be drastically revised.

But it takes more than two or even three specimens to reach firm conclusions about the range of variations within a species. Still, Georgia is a good place to start. The three specimens found there represent the largest collection of individuals from any single site older than around 800,000 years.

"We have now a very rich collection, of three skulls and three jawbones, which gives us a chance to study very properly this question" of how to classify early hominids, Dr. Lordkipanidze said, and paleontologists are busy this summer looking for more skulls at Dmanisi.

"We badly want to know what the functional abilities of the first out-of-Africa migrants were," said Dr. Wood of George Washington University. "What could that animal do that animals that preceded it couldn't? What was the role of culture in this migration? Maybe other animals were leaving and the hominids simply followed."

All scholars of human prehistory eagerly await the next finds from Dmanisi, and in Chad. Perhaps they will help untangle some of the bushy branches of the human family tree to reveal the true ancestry of Homo sapiens.




TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: black; crevolist; discovery; dmanisi; dna; evolution; gene; genealogy; georgia; godsgravesglyphs; history; homoerectus; homoerectusgeorgicus; human; man; mtdna; multiregionalism; oldowan; origin; origins; paleontologist; republicofgeorgia; science; sea; skull; theory
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To: Aric2000
Watch out, Gore got hold of a dictionary and has been reading it.

When he/she/it demonstrates some understanding of it, then I'll be impressed.

121 posted on 08/12/2002 7:21:59 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Aric2000
And you have explained the paradoxes? How fasinating, if god is so perfect, and that is indeed the word of god, then there should be NO paradoxes. If there are paradoxes, then god CANNOT be perfect, but god is perfect, therefore man must have created the bible and it CANNOT be the word of god. I love logic, now throw at me your circular logic and we'll really have some fun!!

If God is all powerful, then making the Universe et al should have required no effort. But He had to rest on the 7th day. Why would He have to rest? He's all powerful, so resting should not have been necessary. Also, after making these things, he saw them and saw that they were good. But shouldn't he have known that they would be good before he made them? Because he's all powerful, and should thus be able to see the results of his actions before doing them?

122 posted on 08/12/2002 7:36:31 AM PDT by Koblenz
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To: Koblenz
Careful, you'll really upset some people asking such common sense questions.

Remember, questioning religion is a no no, because that questions god, and without god there are no morals, and without morals, we will all die.

The no morals bit is the part I have a real hard time with.
123 posted on 08/12/2002 7:53:44 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: gore3000
exDemMom [To G3K]: Have you ever studied science?

G3K:Yup. Have you?

If you have proof of your assertion that you've studied science, post it here.

124 posted on 08/12/2002 7:58:33 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: medved
I tested this assumption with the tool count. According to the Binfords' research--done on North American Indians--each tibal adult has at least five tool kits with some eight tools in each of them. At every time 800 tools existed in a band of 20 adults. Assuming that each tool lasted an entire generation (15 female years), Combe Grenals 4,000 generations in 60,000 years should have produced some 3.2 million tools. By going closer to the actual life time of flint tools tens of millions of tools would have to be expected for Combe Grenal. Ony 19,000 (nineteen thousand) remains of tools, however, were found by the excavators.

According to estimates I've read, there were more than 3,000,000 Indians living in the U.S. at the time Columbus arrived. At 40 tools each, this means there should be 120 million tools for this group. If Indians had been here just 10 generations (150 years) the number of tools should approach 1 billion. Any idea how many have actually been recovered?

In my book "Wie alt ist das Menschengeschlecht?" [How Ancient is Man?], 1996, 2nd edition, I focused for Neanderthal man on his best preserved stratigraphy: Combe Grenal in France. Within 4 m of debris it exhibited 55 strata dated conventionally between -90,000 and -30,000. Roughly one millennium was thus assigned to some 7 cm of debris per stratum. Close scrutiny had revealed that most strata were only used in the summer. Thus, ca. one thousand summers were assigned to each stratum. If, however, the site lay idle in winter and spring one would have expected substratification. Ideally, one would look for one thousand substrata for the one thousand summers. Yet, not even two substrata were discovered in any of the strata. They themselves were the substrata in the 4 m stratigraphy. They, thus, were not good for 60,000 but only for 55 years.

So, for 55 years, this group, annually tracked in 2.75 inches of material? And there it lay? No erosion of whole layers of stuff? Continuous dragging stuff in and out and we don't gouge into last year's stratum, or the year before's? We're left with 55 distinct strata like so many rings on a tree? And this ended, what, 2000, 2500 years ago? How many strata have been layed down since the neanderthals lived there? 2000? 2500? Were they of equivalent dimension -- 2.75 inches each? Because if they were, that would mean a minimum of 450 feet of stuff piled on top of the 4.4 feet of neanderthal strata. Are the caves big enough to hold that?

125 posted on 08/12/2002 9:37:56 AM PDT by laredo44
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To: Gumlegs
“Studied science” = Random cutting and pasting text from Baltimore’s book.
126 posted on 08/12/2002 10:44:56 AM PDT by RightWingNilla
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To: RightWingNilla
"If you have proof of your assertion that you've studied science, post it here."

I'm just asking G3K to do what he/she/it demands others do. If G3K has studied science, I want proof. Not assertions, not links, not evidence ... proof!

127 posted on 08/12/2002 10:47:14 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: laredo44
The US has approximately 150,000,000 cars. Each car has approximately 4 tires of diameter 20 inches and width 5 inches. One eighth inch tread wears off each year from each tire under normal driving conditions. This leads to 150,000,000 * 2 Pi * 20 * 5 * 1/8 /1728 or about 6,800,000 cubic feet of tire dust deposited each year.

Why haven't people found the dust piles?
128 posted on 08/12/2002 11:08:30 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Is that what that stuff under the bed is?
129 posted on 08/12/2002 11:24:23 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: Gumlegs
Good luck!! Because it AIN'T gonna happen,

Everyone BUT G3000 has to back up their assertions to G3000's satisfacton.

/sarcasm on
How dare you think that he needs to back up his..../sarcasm off
130 posted on 08/12/2002 11:57:38 AM PDT by Aric2000
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To: PatrickHenry
Thanks for the ping. Here's another article to read on the nightly commute home. (I'm probably the most well-informed commuter there is.)
131 posted on 08/12/2002 3:45:00 PM PDT by stanz
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To: shirleyvalentine
a squeaky, er, Leakey one
132 posted on 08/12/2002 6:31:36 PM PDT by gusopol3
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To: Gumlegs
If you have proof of your assertion that you've studied science, post it here.

Seems to me that if I had not studied science it would be quite easy to refute my statements against evolution, yet there are numerous scientiific statements I have made on these threads which have gone completely unrefuted. Perhaps you and your friends will like to prove me wrong instead of hurling insults? I doubt it, but here it is:


There is no way one can examine the fossil data and come away with the conclusion that the fossil record supports evolution. A bird is not just a reptile with wings. Such a transformation takes much more changes than just transforming the front legs to wings (an awesome task in itself since each gradual change must be beneficial enough to compensate for the loss of the hands):

In addtion to the feather and the avian lung [quite unique and made for flight because the whole system works by absorbing air in a single direction - unique amongst all vertebrates] there are many other unique features in the biology of the birds, in the design of the heart and cardiovascular system, in the gastrointestinal system and in the possession of a variety of other relatively minor adaptations such as for example, the unique sound producing organ, the syrinx, which similarly defy plausible explanation in graudalistic terms. Altogether it adds up to an enormous conceptual difficulty in envisaging how a reptile could have been gradually converted into a bird.
From: Michael Denton, Evolution a Theory in Crisis, page 213.



Darwin collected evidence which supported his theory and ignored evidence which disproved it. That is why he ignored the platypus and did not talk about the most remarkable characteristic of the bat, the sonar. There was no answer for either so he swept that under the rug. He also had a fantastic ability for charlatanism, of seeming to prove something which in fact disproved his theory.

he cannot prove it, but please believe him.
All these causes taken conjointly, must have tended to make the geological record extremely imperfect, and will to a large extent explain why we do not find interminable varieties, connecting together all the extinct and existing forms of life by the finest graduated steps.

He cannot prove it but it's true:
We should not be able to recognise a species as the parent of any one or more species if we were to examine them ever so closely, unless we likewise possessed many of the intermediate links between their past or parent and present states; and these many links we could hardly ever expect to discover, owing to the imperfection of the geological record.

There is no proof but I believe I am correct:
it deserves especial notice that the more important objections relate to questions on which we are confessedly ignorant; nor do we know how ignorant we are. We do not know all the possible transitional gradations between the simplest and the most perfect organs; it cannot be pretended that we know all the varied means of Distribution during the long lapse of years, or that we know how imperfect the Geological Record is. Grave as these several difficulties are, in my judgment

In the future I will be proven right (like Miss Cleo?):
Species and groups of species, which are called aberrant, and which may fancifully be called living fossils, will aid us in forming a picture of the ancient forms of life. Embryology will reveal to us the structure, in some degree obscured, of the prototypes of each great class.

Contradicting what he said before of living fossils:
Judging from the past, we may safely infer that not one living species will transmit its unaltered likeness to a distant futurity.

Both sides prove me right:
it follows, that the amount of organic change in the fossils of consecutive formations probably serves as a fair measure of the lapse of actual time. A number of species, however, keeping in a body might remain for a long period unchanged, whilst within this same period, several of these species, by migrating into new countries and coming into competition with foreign associates, might become modified; so that we must not overrate the accuracy of organic change as a measure of time.

The future again:
In the distant future I see open fields for far more important researches.

If you have read through a few hundred pages of the above drivel, you will buy the garbage I am going to ask you to swallow now:
He who will go thus far, if he find on finishing this treatise that large bodies of facts, otherwise inexplicable, can be explained by the theory of descent, ought not to hesitate to go further, and to admit that a structure even as perfect as the eye of an eagle might be formed by natural selection, although in this case he does not know any of the transitional grades. His reason ought to conquer his imagination; though I have felt the difficulty far too keenly to be surprised at any degree of hesitation in extending the principle of natural selection to such startling lengths. from: Origin of the Species, Chapter 6


The whole fossil nonsense is garbage. For one thing the scarcity of fossils makes it impossible to be sure when the organism was around. The coelecanth was thought long gone hundreds of millions of years ago and it is still around. Likewise we cannot tell when it first came to be. Without knowing exactly when species first arose and when they ceased to exist lines of descent are impossible to ascertain.

The problem however is even bigger. The evidence is quite lacking in much that is needed to prove descent. For example:
1. What is the evidence that dinosaurs did not have purple skin? (this is needed because skin is almost an absolute requirement for proper classification - fish have scales, reptiles do not, mammals have fur, and birds have feathers).
2. What is the evidence that dinosaurs did not have mammary glands? (again this is absolutely necessary since the definition of a mammal is that it has mammary glands).
3. What is the evidence that dinosaurs had 2, 3, or 4 chambered hearts? (again this is necessary because different species have different hearts)
4. What is the evidence for dinosaur DNA? (again, this is necessary to tell us the relationships to different species).

The answer is that we do not have any such evidence. The answer is therefore that we cannot tell the descent of species from bones because bones do not give us the necessary information to even classify the organisms being studied, let alone to determine if they could have descended from one another.


Two exampes of species that disprove evolution:

    Platypus

Now the platypus certainly did not gradually evolve from any other living creature. The features it possesses come from many different vertebrate families including fish, reptiles, mammals and birds. There is absolutely no place in the 'evolutionary tree' to put this creature into.


FROM:   Euglena Note the eye.

Euglena is both a plant and an animal, in addition to which it even has an eye. Now it is clearly impossible for a creature to have descended from both a plant and an animal in either small gradual steps or large ones!



It is not lack of knowledge that disproves evolution, it is knowledge that disproves evolution. 

Essentially to get a new working gene, just one, you need what amounts to a miracle. You need:

1. a mutation which produces a duplicate gene.
2. that the duplicate gene does not hurt a vital part of the genome.
3. that the duplicate gene gets spread through the species at chances of 50% survival at each generation (note no selective advantage since the gene is just a duplicate at this point).
4. that the new gene acquires a mutation and then goes through 3 above to spread itself throughout the species again (again no selective advantage yet).
5. that it hits upon the correct helpful mutation by pure chance while going through 3 above after each try.

(Now the above alone should be enough to dissuade a reasonable person, one not blinded by faith in materialistic evolution, to say such a thing is impossible. The above is where we were some 50 years ago when DNA was discovered. Now we know more and the problem is worse.)

6. After all the above though, we still do not have a working gene! Now we need another miracle, we need the gene to:
a) be expressed in the cells where the new function, ability or whatever should go. Since there are some 3 billion cells in the human body finding which ones it should be expressed in is quite a task.
b. be connected to other processes in the organism that will tell it when to do its thing and when to stop doing it.
c. become part of the developmental program of the organism which tells the organism in what sequence each of the cell divisions is to take place. (we start with one cell and the program at each division has to determine what kind of cells to produce until we get a fully formed human being, the program does not stop there though, it continues running and telling the cells what to do until death).

Evolutionists believe however that all the above have happened - and not just once, but millions of times since the first single-celled organisms arose. Now who says that evolutionists do not believe in miracles?


If evolution were true then by looking at the differences in any gene for different species would give the same replica of the 'evolutionary tree'. However this is not so and what is most damaging to evolution is that the evolutionists doing this work know very well that it is not true. This one (PDF file) from Mammalian Genome presents a quite interesting example of evolution "science". First evolutionists tried to use mitochondrial DNA to show the relationships between the monotremes (platypus), the placentals (kangaroos) and the eutherians (all other mammals). The mtDNA did not give them the desired results "The value and accuracy of decades of morphological study have been discounted recently by mytochondrial DNA evidence". So of course the evos could not let that happen, so they had to try again. They then tried DNA hybridization. However, under this method also Darwinian theory was refuted "It is significant that apomorphies of the theran ancestors, such as the braincase, cranial nerve architecture, and reproductive physiology" had to be reclassified as convergences under these two tests. So of course they had to pick another test to get the results they wished - a totally new one called MP6/IG2FR!

Such is the way proofs of evolution are constructed - keep trying until you find a way. Different genetic tests give different results. That different tests give different evolutionary trees is a clear disproof of evolution. If all species descended from earlier species and each species in the different parts of the tree descended from another, then there needs to be in all genes the same order of descent and thus all the members of a family, an order, a taxa or whatever, need to have the same divergence in those genes as all other members of the family, order, taxa or whatever. That this is not true and that evolutionists need to "shop" the genes to use to prove their theory shows quite well that evolution is false. That they publicly announce this fraudulent method and that they are not thrown out for such unprofessional conduct shows quite well how totally bankrupt are those who work on evolution.


There are many examples of supposedly duplicate genes. However, none have been experimentally shown to add anything to the species. Specifically a new gene needs to be expressed, controlled and called on to act by the rest of the organism, it needs to be expressed. That there are so many apparent duplicates and yet no one seems to be able to experimentally get a new duplicate to work is clear proof against evolution. In fact, real scientists are loath to say that a duplicate does indeed work. The two citations, one from your buddy Lindsay who is an absolute joke and says anything is a fact without substantiation and the other from a magazine do not contradict my statements.

1) The duplication may be helpful right off the bat.
2) Parents in sexual species very frequently have more than one child. Mine did. If a lizard has 40 offspring in one litter, maybe 20 of them carry a given parental gene.

1. extremely doubtful due to what I said above. In addition, even if it gave a somewhat better survival ability it would have to more than double it to get above the 100% chance of replication needed for it to in any way become fixed in a species. (see below).
2. Number of children does not matter because it is a question of population genetics. You know quite well that I have totally demolished that argument since I have posted it more than once. Here it is again:

As I have been pointing out, family size does not matter so long as it is the same as the average family size of the species. You can use any number you like and you will see that the new trait will dissappear. Since you like big numbers we shall use ten children each generation in a rather small species of only 1000 individuals:

Generation 1: 1 mutant and 999 non-mutants
Generation 2: 5 mutants and 9995 non-mutants
Generation 3: 25 mutants and 99975 non-mutants
Generation 4: 125 mutants and 999875 non-mutants
Generation 5: 625 mutants and 9999375 non-mutants

We started with mutants as .1% of the population, we ended with mutants as .0625% of the population. So obviously the mutation is losing ground, not gaining it as evolution would require.

Evolution postulates that a population changes over time, but it stays integrated and fully functional even as it drifts or else it will die out.

What evolutionary theory postulates is proof of nothing. It is the truth of those postulates which is what these threads are about, so your statement above is meaningless. Science and logic argue against that postulate. That a whole species would coevolve gradually through a bunch of mutations without becoming separate is itself a logical argument against evolution.



133 posted on 08/12/2002 7:56:21 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: medved
Evolutionism isn't "science". It's basically an atheistic ideological doctrine...

I'm sorry, but you have totally lost me. Science is not religion, nor vice versa. You can't blame one of the primary theories forming the framework of biology today (as well as several other disciplines) for the actions of evil people; I seriously doubt Hitler or Stalin sat down and thought "We evolved! Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill people by the millions!" It just doesn't follow. I wonder if you are aware that some of the worst atrocities that ever occurred took place in the name of religion? The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind...

Galileo was excommunicated for his theory of heliocentricity, it was so threatening to religion. Yet millions of Christians (and other religious people) today accept without question the idea that the Earth, God's greatest creation, is not the center of the universe. Yet I only know because I have been told that the Earth travels around the sun; I have no objective proof of that whatsoever, nor can I prove it. At least, with evolution, there are supporting facts; evolutionary theory gives me the framework as a biochemist to make knowledgeable predictions and test them and see that they are true.

134 posted on 08/13/2002 12:11:42 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: gore3000
Yup. Have you? If so, tell me of one single major discovery in biology which has verified the theory of evolution.

PhD, Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, within a month or so. I think that qualifies as a science.

There is not a single discovery which verifies the theory of evolution. It's being a theory, it was developed on the basis of a lot of independent observations. I could go into details of how knowledge of evolutionary theory facilitates my own work, but it occurs to me that I did that a few months ago, and you totally misconstrued what I wrote and missed the point completely.

Mendellian genetics, DNA, and the complexity of the organism shown by the genome project show evolution to be impossible

Yes, of course, the very mechanism by which evolution occurs is absolute proof that it does not occur. < /sarcasm > On a side note, I wonder how it is that it took the genome project to show the complexity of the organism? It did not. In fact, if all you looked at is the DNA, you'd get a false impression of the simplicity of an organism: ggATCCATCATgg... all DNA sequences look pretty much like that.

I'll say it again: I feel for you. It really does appear that, to you, your faith is absolutely dependent upon believing the creation story. Therefore, the only way you can keep your faith is by ridiculing science and the scientific method.

Getting a PhD is a long and arduous task. Most experiments, especially in the first few years, do not work. Would you be surprised to know that, on more than one occasion, I have sat in church and prayed that my experiments would work? That many frustrated students set candles with pictures of Mary and Jesus near their work areas, because they want divine help? Of course I believe in evolution: it is the only theory which fits the known facts. Unlike you, I have not placed the existence of God into an either/or category, and I am perfectly comfortable with my faith.

135 posted on 08/13/2002 12:45:38 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Why haven't people found the dust piles?

In my neighborhood, the street sweepers come by once a week and clean the streets. (It's obvious: the neanderthals had street sweepers.)

136 posted on 08/13/2002 12:59:26 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: PatrickHenry
"But it doesn't do very much for the "theory" of Noah's Ark, does it?"

Oh ye of little faith.

Nam Vet

137 posted on 08/13/2002 1:21:05 AM PDT by Nam Vet
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To: gore3000
To just pick one of your factual inaccuracies:

As I have been pointing out, family size does not matter so long as it is the same as the average family size of the species. You can use any number you like and you will see that the new trait will dissappear. Since you like big numbers we shall use ten children each generation in a rather small species of only 1000 individuals:

Generation 1: 1 mutant and 999 non-mutants

Generation 2: 5 mutants and 9995 non-mutants

Generation 3: 25 mutants and 99975 non-mutants

Generation 4: 125 mutants and 999875 non-mutants

Generation 5: 625 mutants and 9999375 non-mutants

We started with mutants as .1% of the population, we ended with mutants as .0625% of the population. So obviously the mutation is losing ground, not gaining it as evolution would require.

Correction: A trait which confers neither a survival advantage nor disadvantage remains in the population at a constant frequency. Your numbers are wrong. In order to properly examine your example, we must make certain assumptions:

Assumption 1: One mutant in a breeding population of 1000. Individuals pair off and each pair has 10 offspring. Thus, 500 breeding pair have 5000 offspring, of which 5 are mutants. 5 of 5000 = 1 of 1000.

In the 3rd generation, 2500 pairs produce 25000 offspring, of which 25 are mutants.

Generation 4: 12,500 breeding pairs; 125,000 offspring and 125 mutants.

Generation 5: 62,500 pairs; 625,000 offspring and 625 mutants.

Notice how the mutant frequency remains the same through each generation.

Assumption 2: One mutant in a population of 1000. Each individual produces 10 offspring. In this case:

Generation 2: 10,000 offspring and 10 mutants.

Generation 3: 100,000 offspring and 100 mutants.

Generation 4: 1,000,000 offspring and 1000 mutants.

Generation 5: 10,000,000 offspring and 10,000 mutants.

Again, the mutant frequency remains constant at 0.1% in every generation.

Where your example went wrong is that your mutants were only reproducing as per assumption 1, but your population was expanding as per assumption 2.

138 posted on 08/13/2002 2:00:03 AM PDT by exDemMom
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To: exDemMom
I'm sorry, but you have totally lost me. Science is not religion, nor vice versa. You can't blame one of the primary theories forming the framework of biology today (as well as several other disciplines) for the actions of evil people;

The All-Time, Ultimate Evolution Quote

"If a person doesn't think that there is a God to be accountable to, then what's the point of trying to modify your behavior to keep it within acceptable ranges? That's how I thought anyway. I always believed the theory of evolution as truth, that we all came from slime. When we died, you know , that was it, there is nothing..."

Jeffrey Dahmer, noted Evolutionist

Basically, evolution and atheism provide no logical basis for morality. A Christian or a Jew could form a logically coherent argument against the reasoning which Dahmer cites above; an evolutionist could not. And please do not insult my intelligence by claiming to be a "Christian evolutionist", a Jewish nazi, or anything else like that from the realm of fairytales.

I seriously doubt Hitler or Stalin sat down and thought "We evolved! Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill people by the millions!"

Then you better read up on your history a bit, because that is precisely what happened. Newt Gingrich once said that the question of whether a man views his fellow man as a fellow child of God or as a meat byproduct of random processes and "natural selection" simply has to effect human relations. Hitler and Stalin were nothing more than evolutionists who were willing to follow the doctrine to its logical conclusions.

Social Darwinism, Naziism, Communism, Darwinism Roots etc.


139 posted on 08/13/2002 5:31:43 AM PDT by medved
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To: exDemMom
I seriously doubt Hitler or Stalin sat down and thought "We evolved! Therefore it is perfectly acceptable to kill people by the millions!" It just doesn't follow.

I remember hearing that Stalin credited "Origin of the Species" as the inspiration for giving up his faith while in the monestery.

I did a Google search for Stalin, Origin of the Species and found the story confirmed on several sites. Unfortunately all of them are anti-evolution, so I don't know if you would accept them as being authorititative.

The source they give for the story is "Landmarks in the Life of Stalin" by E. Yaroslavsky.

I agree that you can be a Christian and believe in evolution but there are those who use the theory as a excuse to reject the teachings in the Bible.

140 posted on 08/13/2002 5:36:29 AM PDT by Tribune7
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