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Mammoth Herds 'Roamed Fertile Bering Strait In Ice Age'
Ananova ^ | 6-5-2003

Posted on 06/04/2003 3:39:25 PM PDT by blam

Mammoth herds 'roamed fertile Bering Strait in Ice Age'

Huge herds of mammoth, wild horses and bison once roamed the land bridge between North America and Siberia, new evidence suggests.

Plant fossils have shown that 24,000 years ago, during the last Ice Age, dry grassland covered much of region.

The vegetation would have allowed large populations of mammals to survive all year round on the now-submerged landmass known as Beringia or the Bering Strait.

Scientists writing in the journal Nature said the animals would have been sustained by a diet rich in prairie sage, bunch grasses, and other grass-like plants.

Grant Zazula, from Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, and colleagues analysed plant fossils from three sites in Canada's frozen Yukon territory.

During the Ice Age, the area would have had vegetation similar to that in eastern Beringia.

The scientists concluded that the region would have borne a grass-dominated ecosystem known as "mammoth steppe".

They wrote: "This vegetation was unlike that found in modern Arctic tundra, which can sustain relatively few mammals, but was instead a productive ecosystem of dry grassland that resembled extant (present) subarctic steppe communities."

Story filed: 18:40 Wednesday 4th June 2003


TOPICS: Canada; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: age; ancienthistory; archaeology; bering; beringstrait; catastrophism; fossils; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; herds; history; ice; iceage; mammoth; mammoths; siberia; strait
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1 posted on 06/04/2003 3:39:25 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
Up your way.
2 posted on 06/04/2003 3:40:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I have seen their bones. The place is littered with them. The elephants were big in those days, but the horses were small. There were sabretooth tigers here, too: we have bones and hides uncovered by goldmining. There were muskox then, and still are, curious creatures. 24,000 years isn't much these days, as you no doubt know.
3 posted on 06/04/2003 3:45:54 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: blam
Where did the French poodles roam during the so-called ice age?
4 posted on 06/04/2003 3:46:33 PM PDT by Skyleader
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To: blam
Doesn't make sense. Glaciers as far south as central Ohio, all of Alberta and Saskatchewan buried under 2 miles of ice, and these big, waving fields of grasslands in the Bering Strait, what 15 degrees farther north? There's something they ain't telling us.
5 posted on 06/04/2003 3:53:12 PM PDT by djf
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To: blam
>Arctic tundra which can support very few mammals<
Thats not true cuz the DemoRATS told me so!! Why there is all kinds of critters there like,opossums, zebras, camels, aardvarks, pangolins, cookoo birds, galapagos tortoises, Do Do birds, colorful parrots, chimpanzees...etc...etc... thats why there's to be no drilling in Anwar!!!
6 posted on 06/04/2003 3:56:17 PM PDT by Coroner
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To: blam
Kinda make me think that there was "something different" about the Ice Ages.
7 posted on 06/04/2003 4:06:11 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: blam
sounds like Al Bundy's shoe store
at a two for one sale
9 posted on 06/04/2003 4:08:14 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: blam
Have you read Earth in Upheaval by Velikovsky?
10 posted on 06/04/2003 4:15:06 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: djf
There's something they ain't telling us.

The time line. Look at a time line. These events did not occur simultaneously.

I was once at that Dome near Tucson, where those environmentalist nut jobs locked themselves in for a year or so. As I was looking at the museum, there was a display which showed the earth temperature over a period of time going back tens of thousands of years (tree rings and Glacial ice core studies help to estimate the temperatures).

The entire curve was almost sinusodial in its pattern, with the mid point being taken as zero, the peaks were +3 F and the valleys were -3 F. Thus a swing of average temperature of 6 degrees determined warm periods from glacial periods.

As I was observing this with my wife, and two women in birkenstocks were standing next to us, I commented: "So the earth has had a period of temperature fluctuations for thousands of years. How can we be sure now that this period is one of global warming and not simply a continuation of the historical patterns?"

The two turned and looked at me, puzzled at such a question, then quickly walked away.

I was labled as a "non believer." I love to piss off the left with reasonable questions.

11 posted on 06/04/2003 4:15:49 PM PDT by Michael.SF. ('Any government that robs Peter to pay Paul, can always count on Paul's vote' - G. B. Shaw (mod.))
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To: Little Bill
"Kinda make me think that there was "something different" about the Ice Ages."

Does make one wonder, especially the Peri Rees(sp) map showing the land mass of the Anartica before modern times.

12 posted on 06/04/2003 4:19:33 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Piri Re'is was Admiral of the Turkish fleet. As such, he had the best navigational charts, and not just near Turkey. The Turkish Navy went far, wide and strong.
13 posted on 06/04/2003 4:23:12 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: Skyleader
French poodles do not, according to the most thorough scientific research, pre-date the great age of boudoirs: over or under-heated.
14 posted on 06/04/2003 5:02:54 PM PDT by ricpic
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To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2
Sure. Velikovsky is hilarious. Spent a lot of time in that book railing against the then new theory of Continental Drift. It's no longer a theory, of course, but established empirically observed fact.

I found his tales of bouncing planets fascinating and amusing. It's totally against the laws of celestial mechanics, but a good fantasy writer never lets reality intrude on his creation.

15 posted on 06/04/2003 5:15:15 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: stand watie
Food of the ancestors ping.
16 posted on 06/04/2003 5:18:19 PM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: blam
Piri Re'is Map...

No, I was thinking more about the Amur valley and Northern Siberia being a lot warmer during the Ice Ages than it is now, present temp on the level of the Ninth Bolga of Hell.

The Gulag Archipeligo mentions that prisioners working in a mine in Northern Siberia struck an "Ice Lens" full of frozen fish, which they ate with no harm to themselves. This and the frozen mammoth thing started me thinking that there was more to the Ice Ages than people are willing to admit.

17 posted on 06/04/2003 5:19:14 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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To: blam
The Piri Reis Map
Thereafter, the Piri Reis Map drifts into the Twilight Zone. It shows South America swinging far to the east. Given that the map so far has done fairly well in latitude, we can be sure the coastline is not Antarctica. Also, if the map draws on ancient knowledge to show things no 16th century explorer would have known, why is the coastline continuous? So why isn't there open water between South America and "Antarctica?" You can't seize on an accidental resemblance to a couple of bumps on the coast of Antarctica and blithely ignore the failure to show the Drake Passage!

And...where's Greenland? And what are those islands off the coast of S. America?

18 posted on 06/04/2003 5:22:13 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: Little Bill
"This and the frozen mammoth thing started me thinking that there was more to the Ice Ages than people are willing to admit."

OI don't think 'they' know any more than has already been published. I don't think anyone is keeping a secret.

19 posted on 06/04/2003 5:39:51 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Come on blam cut me some slack, you are becoming a Lyellist(sp).

If you look at the progression of man and the ecosphere that gave us the present distribution of Mankind, it wouldn't have happened on a close reading of modern text books. We would still be swinging from trees on the African savanna.

The Ice Ages Happened, Elephants graised on the Barents Sea, you can buy mastidon meat in San Francisco, roasted or for Kabobs. If you look at the distribution of Ice in the Northern hemisphere there could be no Ice Free zone to let the horses out, they would be frozen in Northern Sibera.

Why was Sibera so warm, flowers in the mouth of flash frozen Mastidon and Mass under a couple of hundred feet of Ice?

20 posted on 06/04/2003 6:00:04 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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To: blam
yec SPOTREP
21 posted on 06/04/2003 8:09:34 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
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To: Little Bill
"Come on blam cut me some slack, you are becoming a Lyellist(sp).

I don't know what that is.

22 posted on 06/04/2003 8:13:39 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Sir Charles Lyell

1797 - 1875 </p.

Sir Charles Lyell was born in Scotland on November 14, 1797 and died in London on February 22, 1875. He attended Oxford University at age 19. He was knighted for scientific accomplishment in 1848. He later became a Baron in 1864. He grew up the oldest of 10 children. Lyell's father was an active naturalist. Lyell had access to an elaborate library including subjects such as Geology.

When Lyell was at Oxford, his interests were mathematics, classics, the legal system (law) and geology. He attended a lecture by William Buckland that triggered his enthusiasm for geology.

Lyell originally started his career as a lawyer, but later turned to geology. His zoological skills aided in his extensive studies and observations throughout the world. He became an author of The Geological Evidence of the Antiquity of Man in 1863 and Principles of Geology (12 editions). Lyell argued in this book that, at the time, presently observable geological processes were adequate to explain geological history. He thought the action of the rain, sea, volcanoes and earthquakes explained the geological history of more ancient times.

Lyell rebelled against the prevailing theories of geology of the time. He thought the theories were biased, based on the interpretation of Genesis. He thought it would be more practical to exclude sudden geological catastrophes to vouch for fossil remains of extinct species and believed it was necessary to create a vast time scale for Earth's history. This concept was called Uniformitarianism. The second edition of Principles of Geology introduced new ideas regarding metamorphic rocks. It described rock changes due to high temperature in sedimentary rocks adjacent to igneous rocks. His third volume dealt with paleontology and stratigraphy. Lyell stressed that the antiquity of human species was far beyond the accepted theories of that time.

Lyell was married and his wife preceded him in death. He associated with many important people and went world wide when conducting his studies of geology. Charles Darwin became his dear friend and correspondent. Darwin is quoted saying, "The greatest merit of the Principles was that it altered the whole tone of one's mind, and therefore that, when seeing a thing never seen by Lyell, one yet saw it through his eyes."

23 posted on 06/04/2003 8:28:34 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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To: Little Bill
I think there are serious kinks in the uniformity theory. Read the Steen Mountain stuff, that enough to make yur hair stand on end!
24 posted on 06/04/2003 8:32:09 PM PDT by djf
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To: Little Bill
"Lyell stressed that the antiquity of human species was far beyond the accepted theories of that time."

I believe this is true today. ...and I'm a catastrophist.

25 posted on 06/04/2003 8:37:15 PM PDT by blam
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To: djf
Looks like the Scab Lands of Eastern Washington State.
26 posted on 06/04/2003 8:41:13 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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To: blam
Darwin and Lyell fed on and reinforced each other, I don't believe in evolution as it is presently defined, nor do I believe in the out of Africa theory, as you well know. Lyell and Darwin are two of the drag anchors holding back reasearch in human origins and dispersal.
27 posted on 06/04/2003 8:49:26 PM PDT by Little Bill (No Rats, A.N.S.W.E.R (WWP) is a commie front!!!!,)
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To: Little Bill
Ever hear of Hugh Auchincloss Brown?
28 posted on 06/04/2003 8:52:23 PM PDT by djf
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
I'm curious- have you actually read Earth in Upheaval? If so, what are your thoughts on the physical evidence that he presents in the book? (bones, etc.) I don't remember any bouncing planets in that book.
29 posted on 06/05/2003 3:40:05 AM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: Black Agnes
MMMMM,MMMMMM, good! Mammoth steak over an open fire!

our favorite!

free dixie,sw

30 posted on 06/05/2003 9:18:12 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. -Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Black Agnes
and ROAST camel with mixed veggies!

that's good too;almost as good as DOG ( to quote Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot: DOG's a good meal!)!

free dixie NOW,sw

31 posted on 06/05/2003 9:31:48 AM PDT by stand watie (Resistence to tyrants is obedience to God. -Thomas Jefferson)
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To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2
Earth in Upheaval was, as Velikovsky stated in the preface, a complilation of geophyscical data to substantiate the claims made in Worlds in Collision that his critics said were lacking. So Immanuel compiled a list of geophysical anomalies unexplained in 1948 and presumed they supported his mythology based fantasy previously published as Worlds in Collision.

The two books are complementary. Certainly I'm not going to forward an explanation of why a mamoth would die and freeze in the ice, rapidly enough to preserve it as edible, even though the animal had undigested grass in it's stomach. But it's certain the cause was neither Venus nor Mars bumping into the Earth's magnetosphere as proposed and altering the axis of rotation. And definitely not within human memory. Nope. Didn't happen. Sir Isaac Newton forbids it.

32 posted on 06/05/2003 11:49:01 AM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
If the earth did have a great flood on the scale of the Biblical flood, could that have affected the earth's rotation? What would covering the earth in water do to the reflectivity of the surface and the temperature of the earth?
33 posted on 06/05/2003 11:59:03 AM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: DannyTN
It doesn't matter. The Earth has never had a flood such at the described in early biblical mythology.
34 posted on 06/05/2003 12:23:27 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: Little Bill
Of course Mass was iced. The Kennedy's drink everything that way.
35 posted on 06/05/2003 12:32:08 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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To: Little Bill
Sure now and didn't Bill Clinton say "Better put some ice on that, honey?"
36 posted on 06/05/2003 12:33:52 PM PDT by Kenny Bunk
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To: blam
A catastrophist in the literal sense? Where God periodicaly destroys most life via world wide catastrophy and re-creates new life forms?

Interesting.

Catastrophism went out of favor in the mid 19th century. I've always been fascinated by that theory myself. Strictly speaking, there is NO EVIDENCE for creation just as there is NO EVIDENCE for evolution. Evolution is an excellent theory that would tie many things together and answer many questions, but there is no EVIDENCE. It seems to me there is a stronger argument for catastrophism than for evolution or creation.

Or were you kidding...
37 posted on 06/05/2003 12:50:34 PM PDT by IYAAYAS (Live free or die trying)
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
Mammoth Mummies
38 posted on 06/05/2003 12:57:08 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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To: djf
Doesn't make sense. Glaciers as far south as central Ohio, all of Alberta and Saskatchewan buried under 2 miles of ice, and these big, waving fields of grasslands in the Bering Strait, what 15 degrees farther north? There's something they ain't telling us.

Change in ocean currents, I would guess. Right now the North Atlantic is warmed by the Gulf Stream - but from what I have read about the Ice Ages, the circulation in the North Atlantic changed, blocking warm water from flowing northward. Hence the ice in Ohio and England. Likewise, a warm current could have kept Beringia ice-free.

39 posted on 06/05/2003 1:00:27 PM PDT by dirtboy (someone kidnapped dirtboy and replaced him with an exact replica)
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
"So Immanuel compiled a list of geophysical anomalies unexplained in 1948"

I don't know what your background is and I'm just a layman who reads a lot about this stuff (with what little free time I have). I would love to see Velikovsky debunked but at this point I'm still keeping an open mind. My first question to you is what, of the anomalies descibed in his book, are the explanations that we have today? Why in the world are there huge masses of mammoth bones (and other animals) piled up in Alaska and Siberia, shattered and mixed in with gravel and broken trees? What of the caves in England and the other anomalies in the book?

Another thing that bothers me is why don't we learn about these anomalies? Are they really anomalies if there is evidence across the globe? I don't have the book with me to pull examples so I'm just going by memory. I'm not a Velikovsky apologist but it is interesting to me that only in his books do I hear about evidence like this.

You sound like you know what you're talking about and you seem familiar with Velikovsky so I'd love to hear what you have to say- like I say I have an open mind.

40 posted on 06/05/2003 1:06:23 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: blam
Bump
41 posted on 06/05/2003 1:07:36 PM PDT by Fiddlstix (http://www.ourgangnet.net)
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To: IYAAYAS

This kind of catastrophism.

42 posted on 06/05/2003 1:29:52 PM PDT by blam
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To: IYAAYAS
...And this kind of catastrophism.

Did Asteroids And Comets Turn The Tides Of Civilization?

43 posted on 06/05/2003 1:32:55 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Carolina Bays?
44 posted on 06/05/2003 1:47:50 PM PDT by the-ironically-named-proverbs2
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To: stand watie
Osiyo
45 posted on 06/05/2003 1:53:42 PM PDT by gopheraj
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To: blam
WOW! Where was that taken?

So your talking natural catastrophism then. Excelent, I'm not sure the two types are mutualy exclusive though.

A general question for anybody: Considering most if not all of our absolute dating methods involve measurement of radioactive decay. Are there ANY conditions that can alter decay rates, such as magnetic fields or gravity or anything else?
46 posted on 06/05/2003 3:22:42 PM PDT by IYAAYAS (Live free or die trying)
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To: IYAAYAS
Are there ANY conditions that can alter decay rates

You can speed it up by concentrating a lot of the material in a small space. Half-life is dependent on each atom by itself, though, and represents the lowest rate of natural decay.

47 posted on 06/05/2003 3:27:11 PM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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To: IYAAYAS
"WOW! Where was that taken? "

Suprise. Those are called Carolina Bays, there are 500,000 of these along the east coast of the USA.

Carolina Bays

48 posted on 06/05/2003 3:30:05 PM PDT by blam
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To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2; IYAAYAS
Moses’ Comet

Mike Baillie
Discovering Archeology, July/August 1999

Moses called down a host of calamities upon Egypt until the pharaoh finally freed the Israelites. Perhaps he had the help of a comet impact coupled with a volcano. A volcano destroyed the island of Santorini in the Aegean Sea (between today's Greece and Turkey) around the middle of the second millennium B.C. Researchers Val LaMarche and Kathy Hirschboeck suggest the volcano might be associated with tree-ring evidence for several years of intense cold beginning in 1627 B.C. Could that form the basis for strange meteorological phenomena recorded in the biblical book of Exodus?

In the book of Exodus, which describes events a few hundred kilometers from Santorini, we read of a pillar of cloud and fire, a lingering darkness, and the parting of the Red Sea. An enormous column of ash must have hung in the sky over the eruption (the Israelites’ “pillar of cloud by day and fire by night?”), and the volcano doubtless caused a tsunami, or tidal wave (which could have drowned a pharaoh's army). The Exodus story is traditionally dated to either the thirteenth or fifteenth century B.C. Those dates, however, depend ultimately on identifying the “Pharaoh of the Oppression,” and historians have never proven to which ruler that infamous title referred. Many biblical scholars will disagree, but I suggest that a seventeenth-century B.C. date is not impossible.

The argument can be bolstered. Equally catastrophic meteorological conditions are recorded in the Bible for the time of King David. Psalm 18, in reference to David, speaks of terrifying events: “Earth shook and trembled. The foundations of the hills moved and were shaken. ... Smoke ... fire ... darkness ... dark waters ... thick clouds of the skies ... hailstones and coals of fire.” On some chronologies, David is placed 470 years after the Exodus. The spacing between the two disastrous events recorded in Irish tree rings at 1628 and 1159 B.C. is 469 years. The Exodus story includes dust, several days of darkness, hail, dead fish, undrinkable water, cattle killed by hail, water breaking out of rocks, the earth opening, the sea parting as in a tsunami, and so on. Someone looking at the Exodus story and knowing descriptions of other distant volcanic effects might offer the possibility that the Israelites escaped from Egypt under the cover of a major natural catastrophe. There may be veiled references to comets in the biblical narrative, leading to the possibility that the Santorini eruption itself may have been triggered by a bolide (comet or asteroid) impact. David Levy, co-discoverer of the comet that bears his and Jean Shoemaker's names, has argued that the description of the “angel of the Lord in the sky over Jerusalem with a drawn sword” (1 Chronicles 21) could be a reference to a comet. The Angel of the Lord was, of course, also present at the Exodus, as it was “traveling in front of Israel's army.” Further, there are indications that as the Israelites left Egypt, the night was as bright as midday. The nights over Europe were reported to have been daytime-bright after the only known modern bolide impact, the Tunguska explosion over Siberia in 1908.

These stories raise the question of whether comets recorded by the Chinese at the start and end of the Shang Dynasty, at very near the same dates, were the same as the comets that may be recorded in the Old Testament. I believe that we know the answer: In the last five millennia, several dynastic changes and dark ages have been the direct result of impacts and/or volcanoes. The consequences of such events must have been devastating, leading to apocalyptic imagery in religious writing and predictions of the end of the world. Zachariah of Mitylene lived through the environmental disaster that began about 540 A.D. In the mid-550s, he wrote in his twelve-volume records of the trials the world had survived: “In addition to all the fearful things described above, the earthquakes and famines and wars, ... there has also been fulfilled against us the curse of Moses in Deuteronomy."“ The curse included pestilence, consumption, fever, fiery blasts from the skies, mildew, a rain of powder and dust, and darkness. The curse of Moses must have seemed an appropriate description of life after the impact of a piece of a comet.

49 posted on 06/05/2003 3:37:46 PM PDT by blam
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To: the-ironically-named-proverbs2
Velikosky debunked? The moon in the sky is proof enough. According to IV, less than 5000 years ago the earth's axis was tilted by the intrusion of Venus. Yet the moon's orbit is perfectly stable in the equatorial plane of the Earth. The moon is still tidally locked to Earth, a situation that takes eons to establish. The moon's orbit is nearly circular (low eccentricity), another datum against recent interventions.

Let's look at Venus. It allegedly was expelled from Jupiter. Now Jupiter rotation period is about 10.5 hours, the shortest of the principal planets. It is beyond reason to assume that an expelled Venus would have a near zero rotation rate. Yet that is what we observe today. The alleged changes in Earth's rotations would not absorb all of Venus' angular momentum, so where did it go? What mechanisms exist to transfer angular momentum from Venus to Earth? Both Venus and the Earth have insignificant magnetic fields, nowhere near strong enough to repel a collision, as described in Worlds. Imagine defending yourself from steel jacketed bullets by waving a refrigerator magnet around.

And Venus now has the least eccentric orbit of any body in the solar system. How? It would require the application of considerable force at it's aphelion to change it's orbit from "earth crossing 50 year eccentric" to "near perfect circle" ("sort of eccentric" for Mars).

I'm not going to calculate the forces needed, but I do believe it would require changing the speed of the planet by approximately 7 miles per second or so. I don't think any body could survive the impact needed to effect that large of a change.

No, you won't see much debunking going on here. The "anomalies" Velikovsky noted certainly cannot be explained by presuming bumper car planets. Nope.

50 posted on 06/05/2003 4:06:29 PM PDT by Ten Megaton Solution
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