Posted on 01/18/2013 11:45:12 AM PST by patlin
The Trinity is understandable, but the trick is not to read into Scripture.
FWIW, there also are plenty of verses indicating all of Creation was made by the Son.
I don't know, but in the first Batman comic book the Toyman copyrighted the alphabet and nobody could use it without his permission.
What an absurd question for anyone who considers themselves a Trinitarian.
In the beginning the Word WAS (John 1:1). Actually, that 'was' is in the imperfect tense indicating continuing action in the past i.e. at the beginning.
The word always was. Contrary statements are heresy.
What an absurd question for anyone who considers themselves a Trinitarian.
In the beginning the Word WAS (John 1:1). Actually, that 'was' is in the imperfect tense indicating continuing action in the past i.e. at the beginning.
The Word always was. Contrary statements are heresy.
I thought it was Open Source?
I would suggest a more careful study of Paul's life. If you want to say "Paul was not a disciple" then perhaps a more careful study of other disciples as well. John was well known in the rabbinical community (it was he who got Peter into the inner court) and his mother was pushing for both James and John's success. Matthew was a tax collector so he must have know how to handle finances. Peter (along with James and John) ran a successful fishing business so much so that he owned a house.
Sorry but I don't buy that these disciples were just county bumpkins and neither do historians. Many of Christ's disciples were educated for their times and moderately successful just like any working stiff today. What they gave up for the cause of Christ was real and tangible.
But I would agree that they were not "taught" the "right" way to think. It is ONLY when God illuminate our eyes that we can see the truth. But God does not do this for everyone.
If you accept Sola Scriptura then there is simply no way of denying the clear teachings of Christ that some things are hidden from some people while God reveals them to others. It simply states this.
Romans 1:20 says that EVERYTHING you want to know about the Divine Nature of the Godhead, can be seen in the things God has made.
Romans 1 also states that although everything you wanted to know about God has been visible BUT even though THEY KNEW GOD THEY DID NOT HONOR HIM AS GOD OR GIVE THANKS TO HIM. So their minds become darkened. That is our nature.
This is why people who grew up and NEVER heard the name Jesus can be saved
This is a first. I suppose next you're going to tell me that good meaning Muslims who never heard about Jesus can be saved?
I believe in Sola Scriptura ...
If so then you need to remember...
And if you truly believe you don't need "professional" men instructing you, then I would suggest you recall Ezra:
Neh_8:13 On the second day the heads of fathers' houses of all the people, with the priests and the Levites, came together to Ezra the scribe in order to study the words of the Law.
Only the word of God is infallible and inerrant. While you may not want to take stock in other people's interpretations, I'd be careful to ensure that your own are not tainted. There have been many, many heretics who believed they were correctly interpreting the truth.
I believe that to be more specific as to what Christians should do.
I do to, but the bigger question is, how does one define what it means to ‘walk humbly’ with ones God as there is no gate with the name of ‘Christian’ in the new Temple that comes down from the heavens. There are only 12 gates and upon them are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. (Eph 2:11-22)
Gentiles are considered part of Israel:
Rom_11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
As for which tribe we belong to, like everything else the 12 tribes of Israel were corrupt. God will reconstitute the 12 tribes. I don't mean to post such a long passage but it does explain it here:
Heb 7:2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.
Heb 7:3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
Heb 7:4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!
Heb 7:5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.
Heb 7:6 But this man who does not have his descent from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises.
Heb 7:7 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.
Heb 7:8 In the one case tithes are received by mortal men, but in the other case, by one of whom it is testified that he lives.
Heb 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.
Heb 7:11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.
Heb 7:13 For the one of whom these things are spoken belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
Heb 7:15 This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek,
Heb 7:16 who has become a priest, not on the basis of a legal requirement concerning bodily descent, but by the power of an indestructible life.
Heb 7:17 For it is witnessed of him, "You are a priest forever, after the order of Melchizedek."
Heb 7:18 For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness
Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath, Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.
Heb 7:27 He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Paul was the ONLY learned of the Disciples. The others were common men, fishers and such. FACT.
Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. It’s by Him people are saved. So I suppose you can KNOW who knows and follows another person? It’s Jesus who determines who is saved, not us. Not by reading a book, or attending church, or doing good works. We should NOT JUDGE, especially the eternal things.
I wonder why Jesus never taught on the 5 points. And why the Church was “lost” until the reform....Obviously it was not, it’s just that hypercalvinist reforms measure all things by the Reformation not the Resurrection.
There is nothing wrong with studying the things of God. What is wrong is somehow creating a special set of structure other than what scripture teaches.
This was done in Jesus’ day, in the Roman Catholic Church, and the Protestant Church today.
As I stated earlier, the Disciples DID NOT attend Seminary. They didn’t speak in “Religious” terms.
As far as a Muslim being saved, he must not continue to place his faith in Islam, and listen to the General Revelation. If the man never met a Christian, God would give him all the information he needs to be saved. However, it is the PRIVILEDGE of a Christian to share his faith with such a one. We are God’s ambassadors.
One last point: Just about all the true men of God have been called Heretics and put to death. By the “Church”.
God is not interested in the corruption we have made of religion. He is interested in us, our souls and our hearts, our worship and our repentance. He is not interested in our works, or our sacrifices. They are rags to a perfect God. It is by His grace we are allowed to contribute to the Kingdom.
Paul also states in Eph 2:11-22 that once we confess Yeshua as Messiah, we are no longer gentiles, but fellow citizens of Israel and partakeers of ALL the covenantS of promise that were made from the beginning. We are equal heirs amd sons and daughters of the house of God.
The term ‘gentile(s)/nation(s)s’ simply means one is who not of God’s covenant, old or new, so this also puzzles me as to why the ‘church’ still considers itself Israel,other than the fact that the early church fathers were anti0semetic and hated everything Jewish because it did not fit their plan of growth for the church.
So if we are sons and daughters and are to be working on being transformed to look like the Son according to the path given through Moses, why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?
Another point on the grafting in.
In the account of the Exodus & Wilderness journey we see a man named Caleb chosen as the one to lead the tribe of Judah. Caleb was not of Israeli blood, his father was a Canaanite. It was Caleb’s confessing Yahweh as God as Savior and following His Ways completely that deamed Caleb worthy to be called a ‘son’ and he was only one of two (Joshua being the other) of the original millions that left Egypt who actually entered into the promised land. These two represent ‘the remnant’ of the end days.
Narrow is the gate and few find it, Many are called but few are chosen. Why? Because it is easier to look like the ‘nations’ than to be ‘set-apart’ as to stand out from all others, including ones family which Messiah twice told us would happen so we must count the cost first. Are we willing to stand in the same position as Himself and all the disciples who were killed for standing steadfast in the covenant spoken at Mt Sinai by Yeshua Messiah to Moses. (Acts 7:37-39, Heb 3:7-4:13)
Hmmmmm.....
Total Depravity...
Joh 5:39-40 You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Luk_11:13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
Unconditional Election...
Joh 10:16 And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.
Joh_15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh_9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no guilt; but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
Don’t forget the good Doctor, Luke.
Good point. Along with Barnabus, Apollos, and Lydia. The list goes on.
I think we underestimate these wonderful people who sacrificed everything (including in many cases their lives) for the cause of Christ. Peter, James and John ran a successful fishing operation of which they tried to return to after Christ’s death. But in the end they heard the calling and gave up the security of their occupation to feed Christ’s sheep.
I'm not sure where you got your information (although this view does circulate among Catholics in particular). The early fathers were in fact Jewish fathers. These include Peter, James, John, Paul, etc. The first council (the Jerusalem Council) was comprised of Jewish fathers. When Protestants tried to figured out which books of scriptures were suppose to be included in the inerrant word of God, they went back to the Hebrew fathers for guidance. The idea that the earlier Gentile fathers were anti-semetics is nonsense. This comes from dispensationalists who attempt to discredit the idea that Gentiles have been grafted into Israel as is plainly stated in Romans 9. This is something early Gentile fathers taught as well as Paul.
Why does the church consider itself Israel? I can give you my understanding. The Israel of the scripture is a physical type for the spiritual church. It shows to the spiritual church all the good blessing of God as well as the consequences of sin. Part of Jewish believers (a remnant) made up Israel as well as Gentile believers (e.g. Caleb, Ruth, Rahab, etc.). This has been merged by God into the true Israel-the church, although there are still unbelievers (tares) within the framework of the church. It is not perfect-yet.
I believe the Old Testament to be woefully overlooked by today's church. These aren't "moral" stories but actual practice of living given to us by God. The OT acts of living are the doctrines of the NT put into the context of a living world. There are parallels between the physical Israel of yesteryear and the spiritual Israel of today.
why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?
I'm not sure what you are talking about when you state that we are to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter should act like. And certainly most of the Protestants on this board would not agree that we are taught from "church" doctrines. We are constantly arguing about "sola scriptura" (scripture alone).
How we should act is laid out in scripture. Do justice. Love kindness. Walk humbly with God. Love God. Love one another. This is what defines us as sons/daughters of God. These are doctrinal values of the New Testament. How they are applied in the context of the living world can be found in the Old.
Absolutely.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
One of "things that are made" are us. In other words, the divine nature can be perceived in us, in our bodies. So what does that reveal about the Godhead?
The biggest thing that jumps out about the human body is duality.
Two halves of a body. Two ears. Two eyes, two nostrils. Two feet. Two hands. Two arms. Two legs. Internally we have right brain and left brain. Two lungs. Two kidneys.
Duality in the body. The same thing occurs in most of animal world. How about sexes? Two sexes, male and female. In nature TWO, or duality, is the overwhelming number seen in creation.
In scripture it's the same. In heavenly realm there is never a "person" in the Godhead named "holy spirit". There is the father and the son:
Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.
Father and son. Two.
Heb_8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
In the book of Revelation there are many visions of heaven. We can see the father and son sitting on thrones. Surrounding the thrones are a host of angelic beings. But nowhere is there a person referred to or called the "holy spirit" in heaven...in the Godhead.
So if we filter out religion the overwhelming attribute of divinity is two, not three. Our bodies and nature practically scream it. We ARE without excuse.
Er....ok if that's what you believe but it is not scriptural.
Attributes of the Holy Spirit:
• He Teaches: John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (NIV)
• He Testifies of Christ: John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. (NIV)
• He Convicts: John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt [Or will expose the guilt of the world] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: (NIV)
• He Leads: Romans 8:14 Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (NIV)
• He Reveals Truth: John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (NIV)
• He Strengthens and Encourages: Acts 9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord. (NIV)
• He Comforts: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (KJV)
• He Helps Us in our Weakness: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (NIV)
• He Intercedes: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (NIV)
• He Searches the Deep Things of God: 1 Corinthians 2:11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (NIV)
• He Sanctifies: Romans 15:16 To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)
• He Bears Witness or Testifies: Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (KJV)
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (NIV)
• He Forbids: Acts 16:6-7 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. (NIV)
• He Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? (NIV)
• He Can be Resisted: Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (NIV)
• He Can be Blasphemed: Matthew 12:31-32 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (NIV)
• He Can be Quenched: 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. (NKJV)
Sure it is. The first disciples believed in the divinity of the father and the son. History and any good Catholic will tell you that the trinity doctrine was due to progressive revelation to their church. It was not official church doctrine until hundreds of years after the death of Christ.
That explains why Paul, in every letter he wrote that can be attributed to him, only sent greetings from the divine members of the Godhead, the father and son:
Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Tit 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.
Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
This would be quite an oversight if Paul believe there was a person called "the holy spirit" in the Godhead. But he didn't believe this because he knew that scripture doesn't record it.
There are many quotes by Paul (as well as our Lord) referring to the Holy Spirit as a person:
1Co_2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
Paul refers to the Spirit as a person and this person ("who") comes from God the Father. Paul signs off his letter to the Corinthians properly referring to all three:
This, btw, is WHY it is important to study the teachings of those who come before us as well as the scriptures; to avoid serious errors like this.
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