Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
Now you done it, don't you think thier ribs are gonna get tender from all that pokin? :)
Scuse me; but, it isn't about how many times the word shows up. It's about what each of those individual references has to say on the topic. Which pretty much obliterates the notion that it's all about love and then we can do whatever we please. You aren't a hippy by chance are you?
From the other thread.
I was not aware of any Ignatian forgeries. Here is an excerpt of an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
CollectionsThe oldest collection of the writings of St. Ignatius known to have existed was that made use of by the historian Eusebius in the first half of the fourth century, but which unfortunately is no longer extant. It was made up of the seven letters written by Ignatius whilst on his way to Rome; These letters were addressed to the Christians
· of Ephesus (Pros Ephesious);
· of Magnesia (Magnesieusin);
· of Tralles (Trallianois);
· of Rome (Pros Romaious);
· of Philadelphia (Philadelpheusin);
· of Smyrna (Smyrnaiois); and
· to Polycarp (Pros Polykarpon).We find these seven mentioned not only by Eusebius ("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi) but also by St. Jerome (De viris illust., c. xvi). Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius
· to Mary of Cassobola (Pros Marian Kassoboliten);
· to the Tarsians (Pros tous en tarso);
· to the Philippians (Pros Philippesious);
· to the Antiochenes (Pros Antiocheis);
· to Hero a deacon of Antioch (Pros Erona diakonon Antiocheias). Associated with the foregoing is
· a letter from Mary of Cassobola to Ignatius.It is extremely probable that the interpolation of the genuine, the addition of the spurious letters, and the union of both in the long recension was the work of an Apollonarist of Syria or Egypt, who wrote towards the beginning of the fifth century. Funk identifies him with the compiler of the Apostolic Constitutions, which came out of Syria in the early part of the same century. Subsequently there was added to this collection a panegyric on St. Ignatius entitled, "Laus Heronis". Though in the original it was probably written in Greek, it is now extant only in Latin and Coptic texts. There is also a third recension, designated by Funk as the "mixed collection ". The time of its origin can be only vaguely determined as being between that of the collection known to Eusebius and the long recension. Besides the seven genuine letters of Ignatius in their original form, it also contains the six spurious ones, with the exception of that to the Philippians.
In this collection is also to be found the "Martyrium Colbertinum". The Greek original of this recension is contained in a single codex, the famous Mediceo-Laurentianus manuscript at Florence. This codex is incomplete, wanting the letter to the Romans, which, however, is to be found associated with the "Martyrium Colbertinum" in the Codex Colbertinus, at Paris. The mixed collection is regarded as the most reliable of all in determining what was the authentic text of the genuine Ignatian letters. There is also an ancient Latin version which is an unusually exact rendering of the Greek. Critics are generally inclined to look upon this version as a translation of some Greek manuscript of the same type as that of the Medicean Codex. This version owes its discovery to Archbishop Ussher, of Ireland, who found it in two manuscripts in English libraries and published it in 1644. It was the work of Robert Grosseteste, a Franciscan friar and Bishop of Lincoln (c. 1250). The original Syriac version has come down to us in its entirety only in an Armenian translation. It also contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters. This collection in the original Syriac would be invaluable in determining the exact text of Ignatius, were it in existence, for the reason that it could not have been later than the fourth or fifth century. The deficiencies of the Armenian version are in part supplied by the abridged recension in the original Syriac. This abridgment contains the three genuine letters to the Ephesians, the Romans, and to Polycarp. The manuscript was discovered by Cureton in a collection of Syriac manuscripts obtained m 1843 from the monastery of St. Mary Deipara in the Desert of Nitria. Also there are three letters extant only in Latin. Two of the three purport to be from Ignatius to St. John the Apostle, and one to the Blessed Virgin, with her reply to the same. These are probably of Western origin, dating no further back than the twelfth century.
The Controversy
At intervals during the last several centuries a warm controversy has been carried on by patrologists concerning the authenticity of the Ignatian letters. Each particular recension has had its apologists and its opponents. Each has been favored to the exclusion of all the others, and all, in turn, have been collectively rejecte d, especially by the coreligionists of Calvin. The reformer himself, in language as violent as it is uncritical (Institutes, 1-3), repudiates in globo the letters which so completely discredit his own peculiar views on ecclesiastical government. The convincing evidence which the letters bear to the Divine origin of Catholic doctrine is not conducive to predisposing non-Catholic critics in their favor, in fact, it has added not a little to the heat of the controversy. In general, Catholic and Anglican scholars are ranged on the side of the letters written to the Ephesians, Magnesians, Trallians, Romans, Philadelphi ans, Smyrniots, and to Polycarp; whilst Presbyterians, as a rule, and perhaps a priori, repudiate everything claiming Ignatian authorship.
The two letters to the Apostle St. John and the one to the Blessed Virgin, which exist only in Latin, are unanimously admitted to be spurious. The great body of critics who acknowledge the authenticity of the Ignatian letters restrict their approval to those mentioned by Eusebius and St. Jerome. The six others are not defended by any of the early Fathers. The majority of those who acknowledge the Ignatian authorship of the seven letters do so conditionally, rejecting what they consider the obvious interpolations in these letters. In 1623, whilst the controversy was at its height, Vedelius gave expression to this latter opinion by publishing at Geneva an edition of the Ignatian letters in which the seven genuine letters are set apart from the five spurious. In the genuine letters he indicated what was regarded as interpolations. The reformer Dallaeus, at Geneva, in 1666, published a work entitled "De scriptis quae sub Dionysii Areop. et Ignatii Antioch. nominibus circumferuntur", in which (lib. II) he called into question the authenticity of all seven letters. To this the Anglican Pearson replied spiritedly in a work called "Vindiciae epistolarum S. Ignatii", published at Cambridge, 1672. So convincing were the arguments adduced in this scholarly work that for two hundred years the controversy remained closed in favor of the genuineness of the seven letters. The discussion was reopened by Cureton's discovery (1843) of the abridged Syriac version, containing the letters of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Romans, and to Polycarp. In a work entitled "Vindiciae Ignatianae" London, 1846), he defended the position that only the letters contained in his abridged Syriac recension, and in the form therein contained, were genuine, and that all others were interpolated or forged outright.
This position was vigorously combated by several British and German critics, including the Catholics Denzinger and Hefele, who successfully de fended the genuineness of the entire seven epistles. It is now generally admitted that Cureton's Syriac version is only an abbreviation of the original.
While it can hardly be said that there is at present any unanimous agreement on the subject, the best modern criticism favors the authenticity of the seven letters mentioned by Eusebius. Even such eminent non-Catholic critics as Zahn, Lightfoot, and Harnack hold this view. Perhaps the best evidence of their authenticity is to be found in the letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, which mentions each of them by name. As an intimate friend of Ignatius, Polycarp, writing shortly after the martyr's death, bears contemporaneous witness to the authenticity of these letters, unless, indeed, that of Polycarp itself be regarded as interpolated or forged. When, furthermore, we take into consideration the passage of Irenaeus (Adv. Haer., V, xxviii, 4) found in the original Greek in Eusebius (Hist. eccI., III, xxxvi), in which he refers to the letter to the Romans. (iv, I) in the following words: "Just as one of our brethren said, condemned to the wild beasts in martyrdom for his faith", the evidence of authenticity becomes compelling. The romance of Lucian of Samosata, "De morte peregrini", written in 167, bears incontestable evidence that the writer was not only familiar with the Ignatian letters, but even made use of them. Harnack, who was not always so minded, describes these proofs as "testimony as strong to the genuineness of the epistles as any that can be conceived of" (Expositor, ser. 3, III, p. 11).
So it seems that there is a bit of controversy surrounding the letters of Ignatius.
-ksen
65 posted on 4/1/02 12:20 PM Eastern by ksen
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You overstate your case.
According to your own post,
the best modern criticism favors the authenticity of the seven letters mentioned by Eusebius. Even such eminent non-Catholic critics as Zahn, Lightfoot, and Harnack hold this view. Perhaps the best evidence of their authenticity is to be found in the letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, which mentions each of them by name. As an intimate friend of Ignatius, Polycarp, writing shortly after the martyr's death, bears contemporaneous witness to the authenticity of these letters, unless, indeed, that of Polycarp itself be regarded as interpolated or forged.
Here is the crux of the issue, as usual:
Each has been favored to the exclusion of all the others, and all, in turn, have been collectively rejected, especially by the coreligionists of Calvin. The reformer himself, in language as violent as it is uncritical (Institutes, 1-3), repudiates in globo the letters which so completely discredit his own peculiar views on ecclesiastical government. The convincing evidence which the letters bear to the Divine origin of Catholic doctrine is not conducive to predisposing non-Catholic critics in their favor...whilst Presbyterians, as a rule, and perhaps a priori, repudiate everything claiming Ignatian authorship.
So in summary,
NO, there is no controversy whatsoever among Christians as to the authenticity of the individual Ignatian letter I quoted except among those unwilling to accept the blatantly obvious witness of history and desire to replace real, valid history with their own fallacious hystories made up out of whole cloth to support their new false doctrines of the reformation.
Just as Martin Luther attempted to remove James from the New Testament, because it refutes his new novel interpretations, and successfully removed Old Testament books (like 2 Maccabees, which refutes his rejection of purgatory,) so the reformers and their heirs attempt to discredit Ignatius, because his letters PROVE the early Church believed universally in the Real Presence, the hierarchy, the authority of men to lose and bind, and the CATHOLICITY of all early Christians.
Of course, that's what this entire thread is about, and your efforts to cast doubt upon the letter of Ignatius that I quote is just more of the same revisionist deception that the original story above completely disproves.
66 posted on 4/1/02 12:57 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
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From the Catholic Encylcopedia article above:
We find these seven mentioned not only by Eusebius ("Hist. eccl.", III, xxxvi) but also by St. Jerome (De viris illust., c. xvi). Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius
It seems like the only things we can be sure of about the original seven epistles are their titles.
-ksen
67 posted on 4/1/02 1:11 PM Eastern by ksen
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You seem to be purposely misrepresenting what your own post says, or at the very least you are simply reading it incorrectly in your zeal to find anything to refute the words of Ignatius, because they undermine your entire theological framework and understanding of Christianity. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume the latter is probably the case.
Here is the next paragraph from the Catholic Encyclopedia, and the obvious source of the obsession of Calvinists and others to try to impugn the authenticity of the Ignatian letters:
Contents of the letters
It is scarcely possible to exaggerate the importance of the testimony which the Ignatian letters offer to the dogmatic character of Apostolic Christianity. The martyred Bishop of Antioch constitutes a most important link between the Apostles and the Fathers of the early Church. Receiving from the Apostles themselves, whose auditor he was, not only the substance of revelation, but also their own inspired interpretation of it; dwelling, as it were, at the very fountain-head of Gospel truth, his testimony must necessarily carry with it the greatest weight and demand the most serious consideration. Cardinal Newman did not exaggerate the matter when he said ("The Theology of the Seven Epistles of St. Ignatius", in "Historical Sketches", I, London, 1890) that "the whole system of Catholic doctrine may be discovered, at least in outline, not to say in parts filled up, in the course of his seven epistles". Among the many Catholic doctrines to be found in the letters are the following: the Church was Divinely established as a visible society, the salvation of souls is its end, and those who separate themselves from it cut themselves off from God (Philad., c. iii); the hierarchy of the Church was instituted by Christ (lntrod. to Philad.; Ephes., c. vi); the threefold character of the hierarchy (Magn., c. vi); the order of the episcopacy superior by Divine authority to that of the priesthood (Magn., c. vi, c. xiii; Smyrn., c. viii;. Trall., .c. iii);the unity of the Church (Trall., c. vi;Philad., c. iii; Magn., c. xiii);the holiness of the Church (Smyrn., Ephes., Magn., Trall., and Rom.); the catholicity of the Church (Smyrn., c. viii); the infallibility of the Church (Philad., c. iii; Ephes., cc. xvi, xvii); the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smyrn., c. viii), which word we find for the first time applied to the Blessed Sacrament, just as in Smyrn., viii, we meet for the first time the phrase "Catholic Church", used to designate all Christians; the Incarnation (Ephes., c. xviii); the supernatural virtue of virginity, already much esteemed and made the subject of a vow (Polyc., c. v); the religious character of matrimony (Polyc., c. v); the value of united prayer (Ephes., c. xiii); the primacy of the See of Rome (Rom., introd.). He, moreover, denounces in principle the Protestant doctrine of private judgment in matters' of religion (Philad. c. iii), The heresy against which he chiefly inveighs is Docetism. Neither do the Judaizing heresies escape his vigorous condemnation.
Here then we see why you must believe, erroneously, that the quote I posted is a forgery. For to believe the Truth is to become Catholic.
68 posted on 4/1/02 2:48 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
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Again, you are drawing conclusions far too broad from the paragraph you post. This paragraph refers only to the long recension.
Of later collections of Ignatian letters which have been preserved, the oldest is known as the "long recension". This collection, the author of which is unknown, dates from the latter part of the fourth century. It contains the seven genuine and six spurious letters, but even the genuine epistles were greatly interpolated to lend weight to the personal views of its author. For this reason they [i.e., the "long recension" itself, not the originals] are incapable of bearing witness to the original form. The spurious letters in this recension are those that purport to be from Ignatius
69 posted on 4/1/02 2:54 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
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See the references to Ignatius' Letters in this excerpt regarding St. Polycarp. I think it pretty much lays our current "debate" to rest. All that remains is for you the reader to act on this TRUTH:
St. Polycarp Martyr (A.D. 69-155).
Our chief sources of information concerning St. Polycarp are: (1) the Epistles of St. Ignatius; (2) St. Polycarp's own Epistle to the Philippians; (3) sundry passages in St. Irenaeus; (4) the Letter of the Smyrnaeans recounting the martyrdom of St. Polycarp.
The Epistles of St. Ignatius
Four out of the seven genuine epistles of St. Ignatius were written from Smyrna. In two of these -Magnesians and Ephesians- he speaks of Polycarp. The seventh Epistle was addressed to Polycarp. It contains little or nothing of historical interest in connexion with St. Polycarp. In the opening words St. Ignatius gives glory to God "that it hath been vouchsafed to me to see thy face". It seems hardly safe to infer, with Pearson and Lightfoot, from these words that the two had never met before.
The Epistle of St. Polycarp to the Philippians
The Epistle of St. Polycarp was a reply to one from the Philippians, in which they had asked St. Polycarp to address them some words of exhortation; to forward by his own messenger a letter addressed by them to the Church of Antioch; and to send them any epistles of St. Ignatius which he might have. The second request should be noted. St. Ignatius had asked the Churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia to send a messenger to congratulate the Church of Antioch on the restoration of peace; presumably, therefore, when at Philippi, he gave similar instructions to the Philippians. This is one of the many respects in which there is such complete harmony between the situations revealed in the Epistles of St. Ignatius and the Epistle of St. Polycarp, that it is hardly possible to impugn the genuineness of the former without in some way trying to destroy the credit of the latter, which happens to be one of the best attested documents of antiquity. In consequence some extremists, anti-episcopalians in the seventeenth century, and members of the Tubingen School in the nineteenth, boldly rejected the Epistle of Polycarp [the only credible intellectual position, if you honestly reject Ignatius, but one which no individual today impugning Ignatius makes--p2brc.] Others tried to make out that the passages which told most in favour of the Ignatian epistles were interpolations.
These theories possess no interest now that the genuineness of the Ignatian epistles has practically ceased to be questioned. The only point raised which had any show of plausibility (it was sometimes used against the genuineness, and sometimes against the early date of St. Polycarp's Epistle) was based on a passage in which it might at first sight seem that Marcion was denounced: "For every one who does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is antichrist; and whosoever does not confess the testimony of the cross, is a devil, and whosoever perverteth the oracles of the Lord (to serve) his own lusts, and saith there is neither resurrection nor judgment, this man is a first-born of Satan." St. Polycarp wrote his epistle before he had heard of St. Ignatius' martyrdom. Now, supposing the passage just quoted to have been aimed at Marcion (whom, on one occasion, as we shall presently see, St. Polycarp called to his face "the first-born of Satan"), the choice lies between rejecting the epistle as spurious on account of the anachronism, or bringing down its date, and the date of St. Ignatius' martyrdom to A.D. 130-140 when Marcion was prominent. Harnack seems at one time to have adopted the latter alternative; but he now admits that there need be no reference to Marcion at all in the passage in question (Chronologie, I, 387-8). Lightfoot thought a negative could be proved. Marcion, according to him, cannot be referred to because nothing is said about his characteristic errors, e.g., the distinction between the God of the Old and the God of the New Testament; and because the antinomianism ascribed to "the first-born of Satan" is inapplicable to the austere Marcion (Lightfoot, St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp, I, 585; all references to Lightfoot (L), unless otherwise stated, will be to this work).
When Lightfoot wrote it was necessary to vindicate the authenticity of the Ignatian epistles and that of St. Polycarp. If the former were forgeries, the latter, which supports - it might almost be said presupposes- them, must be a forgery from the same hand. But a comparison between Ignatius and Polycarp shows that this is an impossible hypothesis. The former lays every stress upon episcopacy, the latter does not even mention it. The former is full of emphatic declarations of the doctrine of the Incarnation, the two natures of Christ, etc. In the latter these matters are hardly touched upon. "The divergence between the two writers as regards Scriptural quotations is equally remarkable. Though the seven Ignatian letters are many times longer than Polycarp's Epistle, the quotations in the latter are incomparably more numerous, as well as more precise, than in the former. The obligations to the New Testament are wholly different in character in the two cases. The Ignatian letters do, indeed, show a considerable knowledge of the writings included in our Canon of the New Testament; but this knowledge betrays itself in casual words and phrases, stray metaphors, epigrammatic adaptations, and isolated coincidences of thought...On the other hand in Polycarp's Epistle sentence after sentence is frequently made up of passages from the Evangelical and Apostolic writings...But this divergence forms only part of a broader and still more decisive contrast, affecting the whole style and character of the two writings. The profuseness of quotations in Polycarp's Epistle arises from a want of originality...On the other hand the letters of Ignatius have a marked individuality. Of all early Christian writings they are pre-eminent in this respect" (op.cit., 595-97).
70 posted on 4/1/02 3:44 PM Eastern by Dr. Brian Kopp
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Was Paul in error then?
Rom 13:9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Paul couldn't be any clearer, he sums up the visible signs of love for your neighbors as fullfillment of this part of the 10 commandments.
Christ himself equates love of God as keeping God's commandments.
Do you have a better definition of love father?
Is it supported by the Greek? Well in fact yes it is. The greek word translated in the Vulgate as gratia (grace) is Charis. In Ephesians 1:6 the Greek word Charis is the same word Translated by KJV as Grace (Strongs concordance # 5487). All same same. To work that hard to change Gods word cannot be good, no matter what you think of the Pope
So the RC's are going to try a new approach, your going to declare your self the church of love after all these years.
You have an up hill battle, because I know of no one, who that term would come to mind when they hear your name.
It is different though, but your history is against you. (^g^) JH
No, never a hippie!
Which pretty much obliterates the notion that it's all about love and then we can do whatever we please.
It is all about love, Havoc. Every bit of it -- from creation right the way through to the last verses of Revelation. Christian love is never about people doing whatever they please. Love is a very different motivation than obedience. But this is one of those points that are very difficult for Catholics and Calvinists to discuss or perhaps Catholics and Bible-only Christians. Obedience alone as a motivation for following Christ is not the fullness of the Gospel or of our faith in Christ. Loving Jesus is the motivation for following him and walking in his Spirit. Obedience is what is required of a slave or even of a young child. But Love is what unites and moves friends who walk together on the Way that is Jesus Christ himself.
Yes, I do. Look at Jesus' crucified upon the cross and see how much He loves us.
LOL to you. Catholics and Protestants have such different vocabularies that there are times when we have to strike out into another country. The language of love is the language of the mystical theology of the Catholic Church. It rarely enters into a discussion of theology with Protestants, but it is the very place where we might come to understand each other better.
I recommend The Ascent of Mount Carmel by St. John of the Cross to get a taste of it. For some Protestants its language may be as wild as science fiction, but it will share something more substantial about the heart of Catholic faith in Jesus -- more so than the Scholastic language we usually employ.
Fun playing what was it.. whack-a-mole with the recurring propaganda. Crops up again every few hundred posts like someone thinks they hit us with the flashy thingy from men in black and left us oggling three day old egg noodles having been told were rednecks at a hawg roast and that's prime rib. I better stop before I begin looking like I'm an ewok who stumbled into a Dennis miller nightmare rant and died from the glee of simmering the putrified remanes of a gold plated faux droid god over the flames of eternal passion derived from considering the sight of Bill Clinton being stuck in a cell for eternity gagged and bound with Ken Starr to read him Letterman's Top ten reasons why His legacy is best summed up by the sound of a toilet flushing.
I think I've had too much sugar tonight. But that's just my opinion.... LOL
I take it then that you do believe Paul was in error when he defined love of neighbor as:
Rom 13:9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
And you disagree with Christ himself when he said:
Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.
And with John when he said:
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, whenever we love God and keep His commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.
I'm not trying to be pushy here, I'm just genuinely curious if you really disagree with what's being said here.
OK, who are you? I know your not Catholic, because I have never heard them use that........... l-o-v-e-.... word before.
You don't spend a lot of time at airports do you?
Please, we give up, tell us who you really are. JH
I also am a follower of Jesus Christ, and am a real father of seven, and while we're on the subject, why do you allow people to call you "father", you are familiar with Mt 23:9 aren't you?
JH
I normally read the New Testament in Arabic because of my work. For example, in the Arabic translation of "Joh 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me. And he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him." if I were to translate back into English it would read "He who holds fast to what I have taught you and thereby lives out my teaching, he is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me, My Father will love, and I will love him and manifest myself to him." This sense is really throughout the New Testament in Arabic, Hebrew or the very old Syriac and Chaldean lectionaries in Aramaic and Chaldean.
I know this must sound like it is coming from another planet, but it is a way of thinking that is as old as the Negev. In short, the New Testament references to obeying or obedience to commandments could just as easily be translated differently -- as they in fact are in most Semitic and north African languages. And I would underscore that the Torah of God is not so much a legal code for men as it is a divine instruction to God's people that is fulfilled and manifested in earnest in Jesus Christ.
WS: another one for you as well.
The ignation letters with or without the controversy prove nothing more than that someone believed the things he said. It does not prove they are christian teachings, that the author was christian or that the teachings are in any way consistant with scripture as it exists. Nor does it prove that the people who believed those things were christians rather than the miscreant followers of false doctrines that were being warned of already at the time the NT was being written by people who were Christians and were consistent with one another though somehow not with whoever it is purporting to be ignatius in that letter or the others.
You see scholarship doesn't just look for a name and accept blindly what's attached to the name, it looks also at whether what it claims to be stands up in light of what is already known. In the case here the known is pre-existing scripture. It's like finding a letter purporting to be from einstein that says E=M^5 - C. And dated six days after his death. It shows someone had a passing enough knowledge of the subject to get some elements right; but screwed the pooch by getting half of it wrong. The half that's wrong voids the entire relevance of what was gotten right. The date, what's wrong and the end result are not important to some, though. The wrong half is what's strived after placing the face and the appearance of propriety above the truth in order to establish credibility for the junk. Ie the argument - Look, Ignatius wrote it real early and people believed this - and look, it looks like he's christian so this must mean christians believed this. So let's all just ignore everything else on the subject and interject everything he says without considering whether the content is worth the paper it's written on. And accept it on it's face as proof positive of someone's otherwise unsupported claims. See the consideration as to whether it supports you is a ways down the list. Before that comes things like, are the teachings in line with scripture, regardless of who wrote it or when.
Finally, let's underscore something even more disengenuous that comes from the translator. In english, that should say "universal church" not "catholic church". It is an adjective, not a noun. The fact that it is not fully translated out allows people to interject it and run off at the mouth that it's a noun as much as specifically changing the first letter to a cap. It's called intellectual dishonesty.
It is the same with John 14:21 and 1John 5. He who loves God keeps the commandments.
Just my 2 cents.
If Paul had gone directly against the word of Christ, he to would have been wrong, but he didn't of course, and he had never read the book of Matthew at the time, unlike you have.
JH
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