Skip to comments.An Argument for the Cometary Origin of the Biosphere
Posted on 09/06/2004 8:16:38 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
Abstract: The young Earth appear to have been bombarded by comets for several hundred million years shortly after it was formed. This onslaught, perhaps involving hundreds of millions of comet impacts, is currently the best explantion for the origin of the Earths oceans, atmosphere and organic molecules. Although historically a controversial idea, there is now a considerable amount of physical and chemical evidence supporting the theory. Comet scientist Armand Delsemme reviews the evidence and argues that comets from the vicinity of Jupiter contributed the bulk of the constituents found in Earths biosphere.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanscientist.org ...
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The Big Splash:
A Scientific Discovery That Revolutionizes the Way We View the Origin of Life,
the Water We Drink, the Death of the Dinosaurs, the Creation of the Oceans,
the Nature of the Cosmos, and the Very Future of the Earth Itself
by Louis A. Frank
with Patrick Huyghe
Sigwarth and I analyzed over 10,000 images and learned a good deal about the black spots in the process. Our interpretation of the events continued to involve meteor impacts into Earth's upper atmosphere.By counting the spots in our images we were able to estimate the rate at which these objects appeared. This was the simplest measurement to do. We saw ten holes per minute on the daylight side of Earth. So we doubled that figure to obtain the rate of these objects over the entire face of Earth. There had to be about twenty such objects entering the atmosphere every minute. That was an alarming number of objects.
| In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. And God saw the light, that [it was] good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
Then God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters." Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament; and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. So the evening and the morning were the second day.
Then God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry [land] appear"; and it was so. And God called the dry [land] Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that [it was] good. Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb [that] yields seed, [and] the fruit tree [that] yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed [is] in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, the herb [that] yields seed according to its kind, and the tree [that] yields fruit, whose seed [is] in itself according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good. So the evening and the morning were the third day.
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; "and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. [He made] the stars also. God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that [it was] good. So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens." So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good. And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth." So the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, [each] according to its kind"; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that [it was] good.
Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His [own] image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
And God said, "See, I have given you every herb [that] yields seed which [is] on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed; to you it shall be for food. "Also, to every beast of the earth, to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for food"; and it was so. Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed [it was] very good. So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Genesis 1:1-31 NKJV)
Works for God, works for me...and it fits all the evidence too.
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Genesis is the best explanation of mankind and our ecosystem.
Actually, a cometary origin fits better with Odin slaying the Frost Giant.
There is also the "Deep Hot Biosphere" model to consider. Impacts release so much energy that their main role in biology may be in providing mutations for life in situ, altering chemical environments, or delivering water to the Earth's surface. Microbes and amino acids etc which hypothetically may reside on a comet would be unlikely to survive the crash.Life's Far-Flung Raw MaterialsA growing number of investigators, including our team at the Astrochemistry Laboratory at the National Aeronautics and Space Administration Ames Research Center, now believe that some important raw materials needed to build life also hitched a ride from space. Some of these extraterrestrial organic molecules formed leaky capsules that could have housed the first cellular processes. Other molecules could have absorbed part of the sun's ultraviolet radiation, thereby sheltering less hardy molecules, and could have helped convert that light energy into chemical food.
by Max P. Bernstein,
Scott A. Sandford and
Louis J. Allamandola
Findings on FullerenesThe soccer-ball-like nature of fullerenes, carbon molecules made up of 60 or more atoms, has intrigued scientists since the molecules were discovered in 1985. Among other things, their cagelike structure can trap gas molecules within Some scientists speculate that fullerenes in celestial objects like meteors or asteroids could have brought not only carbon but gases to Earth to play a role in the origin of life... [A] team of researchers has now found evidence of even larger molecules, with up to 400 carbon atoms, in samples of the Allende meteorite.
New York Times
Seeing as how this commentary was written by a member of the biosphere, I would argue for the biospheric origin of the commentary rather than the other way around.
HA! HA! HA! I just NOW understood your tagline! LOL! Oh...I'm slow today! That's great :-)
well, if you would like to get into the nitty gritty of which stories it fits, keep this in mind: to have a story survive would mean SOMEONE witnessed the story (or we had more advanced scientific research back then, which would still make for a Young Earth, as they all believed in one)
i think the simple fact that all but the Chinese got in on this type of Creation shows you something. you can either assume they all knew each other at one point, and made small changes over time (small, despite it being "tens of thousands of years") or they all witnessed something similar.
My entire point being that to say one story has more basis to reality than another is a bit premature at this point and may miss a greater truth altogether. A frozen ice comet has more to do with the Norse mythos of Ymir, a frost giant, than it does with the "firmament" being divided by divine edict.
As for who witnessed some of these events. In most of them, aren't they handed down by the Gods themselves? In all likelyhood, they were either made up from whole cloth, or mutated over generations from events that were old when our ancient myths were young.
Until we figure out a way to peer back through time and witness events first hand, all we can do is guess.
From Olde Neppy eh! ...and where did that organic material come from¿
I'm not trying to make the original post fit a "story". I simply posted the truth of Creation as given by God.
Just because it's the Truth, doesn't mean it wasn't paraphrased. Science and Genesis do not contradict each other, especially when you take into account just how abstract Greek is.
example: 7 days may not be the translation we were to understand, as a "yom" is simply a period of time, so it was 7 periods of time, not 7 days.
yom preceded by a number is ALWAYS a 24 hour period of time.
The Bible is clear: 6 literal days. Believe God's Word or not, that's what it clearly says.
So, God spoke to you personally and told you this? Or does the Bible say the Bible is true?
If you want to open that can of worms, fine by me.
The Bible says the Bible is true, but then again, the Nazi's thought they were true too.
I believe in God simply because I do. It is not only how I was raised, but how the world makes sense to me. Science does not refute it, despite many people saying otherwise. The idea that the Bible is Truth comes to me not from the Bible, but from my understanding of the World and how it works. They dont contradict.
yom preceded by a number is ALWAYS a 24 hour period of time.
ernt, wrong. yom preceded by a number is ALWAYS from a starting point to an ending point. there is a type of "yom" in the hebrew faith that is 2 days strung together, but it is a single "yom"
I have all faith in God and His Word. I also have faith God knew what we could understand and what we couldn't at a period of history where "0" wasn't even a concept.
Not particularly, no. The issue of blind faith is the main reason why I quit coming to FR's religious threads. Too easy to stir up bad feeling amongst the different breeds of "faithful".
Norse heathenism appeals to me because of the emphasis on honor, family, and living a good life. Instead of focusing on tangential details like if the entirety of existence came into being in six days, or from the body of an otherworldly creature.
Neither creation myth really adds anything to the basic moral precepts. Those that DO get all a flutter over it, are normally those who will argue endlessly about the glass in the windowpane, and never really look out the window.
Plain reading of Scripture conveys a literal 6 days of creation.
Only when you buy into evolutionary myth and try to factor that nonsense into Scripture do you start jumping through hoops to force God's Word to fit junk "science".
Yom with a number IS a 24 hour day... and everywhere else in Genesis where it is used it is never questioned. Only in the account of Creation to people start mangling the Bible.
I have faith the God conveyed what we needed to know, period. And "0" wasn't an issue.
What we needed to know may not have actually been within our grasp (nor is yet)
The ones who dont dispute the meaning of words in the Bible never have talked to someone who has translated it themselves.
Science is not a threat to God, and God is not a threat to science. As for the evolution myth, who's to say God didn't use evolution as a mechanism for making Man? Care to explain the large voids in generations that the Biblical geneology makes? They look like the same gaps in evolutionary links to me.
Saying God created things before Man is not blasphmey, it's simply an understanding that God is just now opening up to us.
How would you have felt if you just followed some guy who was raised in Egyptian palaces for 40 years, and watched him come from the mountain and say "Oh, by the way, there used to be creatures that existed before us, they were hundreds of times our size and well adapet at survival. They didn't make it, what do you think our chances are of getting out of here alive are?"
I agree with you, Norse mythos has an appeal (as does Celtic)
However, as you pointed out: HOW we got here has little to do with WHY we got here, or WHAT we are doing about it now.
Live life to the fullest, love others, and learn. West, Christian, East. All have a place. If you are drawn by the virtue, check out Daoism. A focal point for them is: all things hold the Truth somehow. You'll learn how to see things and how they relate while being different on the skin.
Of course, then there is the psychology aspect of religion. What is God (mostly) to YOU? Is God Truth? Beauty? Strength? Wisdom? Life? Love? Fun? Technology? Intellegence? Understanding?
Personally, I go for Truth. And as they say, the truth will set you free.
Earth Impact Database
Your analogy breaks down when any amount of logic is applied. First you're saying God lied to us -- God cannot lie. Second, you're still misuing the term "yom" which clearly means one literal day. I've researched the Hebrew on this point and it IS not debatable.
You are right that science is not a threat to God. Science supports Creation without exception. Evolution is not science, but a theory attempting to explain the evidence that is in existance. Creation is another explanation that fits the evidence. However, Creation never has to be altered as new evidence is discovered -- it simply fits. Evolutionary theory has to be altered -- which some say points to its validity because it's "flexible". But Clinton and Kerry are flexible with the truth too.
There are no 'voids' in generations -- not sure what you're talking about there. And saying God created things before man IS blasphemy, because it goes against what God Himself says. You're also saying that death existed before the fall in the Garden of Eden -- which too goes against God's revelation through Moses.
God was there at Creation, He was an eyewitness to the entire process and therefore in a position to reveal honestly what happened.
You are clinging to an explanation fabricated by man and trying to shoehorn God's Truth into it. Instead you should start with God's Truth and work from there. Things fit much more nicely and nothing is left out.
The question isn't how could God have made everything as he said in Six Days -- but why would He take so long? He's infinite. He could have done it in a blink.
I think a little more study is in order on your part to see how Creation in Six Days fits all the evidence we have. If you truly appreciate Science, you would be willing to do this.
"First you're saying God lied to us -- God cannot lie."
two things wrong here: one, I did not say God lied to us, i said he explained it in simple terms, and would prefer we lived our lives, rather than wonder about things like that.
two: God can do anything. He's God.
"There are no 'voids' in generations "
read up and come back to me. i believe there are something like 8 people unaccounted for between Abraham and Jesus.
"God was there at Creation, He was an eyewitness to the entire process and therefore in a position to reveal honestly what happened. "
Jesus is God, yes? Jesus spoke in stories to convey ideas in a simplified manner. Why are you fighting that God may have as well?
" Instead you should start with God's Truth and work from there. Things fit much more nicely and nothing is left out. "
nothing left out by my theory as well. God created life, and set into motion on a time scale we cant comprehend. and yes, evolution is a theory. a theory that can be explained by simply realizing that not everything in the Bible is literal.
"I think a little more study is in order on your part to see how Creation in Six Days fits all the evidence we have. If you truly appreciate Science, you would be willing to do this."
I have seen the evidence for both cases. perhaps if you sdtudied some of the origins of the Bible, you would feel more like i do.
"The question isn't how could God have made everything as he said in Six Days -- but why would He take so long? He's infinite. He could have done it in a blink. "
so what is a day to God? couldnt a day be several millinia?
A day is a day is a day.
A literal "day" is measured as 24 hours, period (despite other definitions not in effect here).
So no -- to God a day is a day. What He can achieve in that time span compared to us is a different matter. But regardless He told us in no uncertain terms that He did it in the span that we call a literal 24 hour day.
You are spinning far worse than Kerry is in this election in order to make your "point".
Im sorry, i forgot, you know exactly how God feels and what makes Him tick.
Nevermind the fact that the Bible states that to Him short period of time can be an eternity, and many generations can be the blink of an eye.
Read up, then come back to me.
and by the way, yes, a LITERAL day is a 23.7 hour day. we are talking about FIGURATIVE days.
But God refers to LITERAL days, as has been demonstrated. Figurative "days" only come from OUTSIDE the Bible in terms of Creation.
I'll just have to agree that you're wrong on this point. Hopefully you will open your eyes to the truth. Jesus taught Genesis as accurate and literal -- I see no reason for us to create some fanciful explanation when the explanation God provides is perfect and fits all the evidence. There is NO evidence supporting old earth ideas -- there are only theories that first reject Christianity and then create a "logical" timeline.
You clearly need more study.
You have to agree that i'm wrong? huh? doesnt "agree" normally entail two or more people coming to the same conclusion on a given subject?
And in truth, Jesus simply taught. He did not to my knowledge say "the Word is literal about the Creation of Man." He did, however make many parables that came from a blend of Eastern and Socratic teachings.
There is NO evidence supporting old earth ideas -- there are only theories that first reject Christianity and then create a "logical" timeline.
Im sorry, but the idea of an old earth came from Darwin's teachings of evolution. Darwin was a devout Christian from my understanding. Along the lines of Karl Marx wasnt a Marxist (in his own words)
My study is on going, but I feel it is far more than yours. You see, i have this habit of researchign things when my ideas come to question. My original idea was as yours. I researched. It is now changed to what it is based on an honest search for truth.
You regressed, I progressed. I was originally into all the Big Bang evolution nonsense... Then tried to compromise with evolution and the Bible... Then I matured into an understanding of what the Bible really says and how it is not in conflict with science.
It shows how good our God really is -- rather than the weak God evolutionist supposedly worship.
"You regressed, I progressed."
opinions, not facts.
I worship the same God you do, my dif is, I feel my God is capable of making evolution, whereas you seem to set a limit on His ability.
Nice spin... Is this Hugh Ross?
Sorry, I don't limit God as you do, requiring Him to take millions of years to do what He said took six days. Best to go with what He said instead of some anti-God "scientists"
I find it quite humorous that your most frequent response is about spin, and yet you yourself said God COULDN'T LIE.
I'm not limiting God here, all I'm doing is taking into account Man's very limited working knowledge of the World back in around 900 B.C. (When the Torah was actually turned into a written text by a few Hebrews who knew different variations of an oral tradition, and thus wrote it down by committee.)
You are simply assuming Man's logic is infallible, I am saying we have much to learn. Our correcting ourselves on that does not make us on the wrong track, it makes it obvious we aren't God, so we dont know the full truth yet.
And BTW, it isn't very becoming to keep turning a theological discussion into a political rib. Or do you simply assume politics and religion are one and the same?
As for the "limiting God to Millions of years" bit: Why would I limit God to anything at all? He's perfectly capable of having formed existance in the past 2 hours, and simply leaving us with memories of a false past. My problem is, it doesn;t fit all the evidence, and why would God leave evidence to support otherwise? Why would you limit God to 6 days? Why not 18 minutes and a coffee break?
You've misread what I said in an earlier post -- I made it quite clear God could have created all in a blink of His eye -- I refuse to limit God.
I see the bud of your problem is that you don't accept God's Word as Truth. You may say you do, but you don't. God inspired all of the Bible and preserved it for all generations. What is there is what He wanted to be there. So the literal 24 hour days in the Bible come FROM GOD through Moses. It's not Moses personal understanding of events that is recorded.
Again, six literal days fits all the evidence that we have. There is nothing to honest scientists that refutes Biblical Creation. Yet the evolutionary model has to keep changing to adapt to new evidence that flies in the face of what was taught before.
You said I am "simply assuming Man's logic is infallible" when in fact nothing is further from the truth of what I'm saying. Man IS fallible -- and when we take man's ideas (Evolution) and try to cut and paste God's Truth to fit the flawed ideas of man, then we have a problem.
If I bring up politics, it's for example -- and just as valid as using any other analogy.
"I refuse to limit God."
You misread my post, you limited God by saying He could not lie. You also will not accept that God, as well as creating things in the blink of an eye, can create things over long periods of time.
I do accept God's Word as Truth. What I don't blindly accept is the words of men held in Mesopotamia away from their own tribes for a couple generations.
Yes, God inspired the Bible, but don't you think it's possible for Man to screw it up somewhere along the line? Man wrote it down after all. Or did you forget the fact that there is more than one language the Bible is written in?
Moses didn't record the events, his followers did. The Hebrew tribes had an oral tradition until about 900 B.C., Moses was around in the 1,200's I believe, I'll have to check my notes.
And yes, Man's logic is fallible. BTW, you're of Man. So was the hand that put Genesis to paper. And the one after it and the one after it and so on. If you've ever played a game of telephone, you will know that it will change, even if the general message remains, something changes.
I accept the Word of God as Truth. I also accept the Word of God may have been simply put into Man's context for simpliciy's sake.
If you feel that putting politics in is for example, then I have this to say: The KKK and the Nazi Party use(d) literal quotes from the Bible to excuse their hatred. Slavery was backed by parables in the New Testament. The Church has a history of waging war to convert or kill those that would not believe.
Myself, I believe God and my relationship to Him is between myself and Him. And when I am married, He will be a part of that as well. However, organized religion is a human device, and should be recognized as such. I do not mean to discredit the MANY good and great things from the Church over history, but keep in mind, even the Pope is fallible.
"Again, six literal days fits all the evidence that we have."
How about the fact that physics is a property God gave existance? I feel God gave us that for a reason. How does your view that we've been around for only 5000 years fit into the idea of stars that have died 10,000 years ago? Why would God have things like that there?
I believe earth is between 6000 and 10000 years old.
However, the dating methods which label the dying stars from 10,000 years ago are based on flawed theories and assumptions. That year label is applied by man -- there are no birth and death records of stars.
You've twisted my words (again). I have never said God could NOT create things over a long period a time, only that He said He did not. He says six literal days and since there is no reason to doubt His word, I won't do it.
You seem to doubt the inerrancy of Scripture which is the root of your confusion.
As for the Klan and Nazi's, they took texts out of context -- something I am not doing here -- so you comparison is a mere insult and not relevant.
Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't avail us anything if you aren't interested in changing your views.
And the birth and death records are based on Mathematics, a human observation of God's principles.
Mathematics calculated using values for variables that are ASSUMED to have been constant for the entire period of time, which is not proveable or even truly assumable.
"Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't avail us anything if you aren't interested in changing your views."
what are you talking about? my views were once your veiws. i changed because of information; you stayed because of stubborness (or lack of information)
I am interested in changing my views, why do you think I changed them in the first place? I used to feel as you do, but I didn't like the whole idea of being out of sync with information.
"As for the Klan and Nazi's, they took texts out of context -- something I am not doing here -- so you comparison is a mere insult and not relevant. "
same can be said for your political ribs, where were you going with this?
"Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't"
yeah, you're right, i shouldn't be discussing this with you while you are so uninformed of world history.
seeing as they apply now, why would God have them work NOW but not then?
More insults and disingenuous comments. Or have you just not read anything?
I stated very clearly that I USED to hold the evolutionary position and upgraded to the Creationist position because the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of it. You seem to have taken my seat on the short yellow bus.
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