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Mysterious deep-space object raises questions on Solar System's origins
PhysOrg ^ | December 13, 2005 | AFP

Posted on 12/14/2005 10:12:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv

Astronomers working in Canada, France and the United States said they had found a small deep-space object, nicknamed Buffy, that challenges mainstream theories about the evolution of the Solar System. The rock lies in the Kuiper Belt, the name for the flock of objects beyond Neptune's orbit that are believed to be leftover rubble from the Solar System's building phase and are the source for many comets... Measuring between 500 and 1,000 kilometers (300 to 600 miles) across and taking about 440 years to make just one circuit of the Sun, Buffy is remarkable not for its size -- around half a dozen identified Kuiper Belt objects are bigger -- but for its location and orbital tilt... Buffy has an almost perfect circular orbit and encircles the Sun at an extreme tilt, at 47 degrees to the orbital plane of the planets as they swing around the Sun... Buffy is the temporary name given by the team for the object, whose official designation by the Paris-based International Astronomical Union (IAU) is 2004 XR 190. Its orbit is in a relatively narrow range of between 52 and and 62 astronomical units (AU) from the Sun (an AU is a standard measurement, being that of the distance between the Earth and the Sun, of approximately 150 million kilometers, or 93 million miles). By comparison, another "extended scattered disk" member called Sedna swings out to as far as 900 AU before coming as close to the Sun as 76 AU.

(Excerpt) Read more at physorg.com ...


TOPICS: Astronomy; History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: astronomy; buffy; catastrophism; godsgravesglyphs; origins; planetx; xplanets

Archaeologica · Mirabilis · Texas AM Anthropology News · ArchaeoBlog
Archaeology magazine · Biblical Archaeology Society · Archaeology Odyssey · post a topic


1 posted on 12/14/2005 10:12:30 AM PST by SunkenCiv
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To: tricky_k_1972; KevinDavis; 75thOVI; AndrewC; Avoiding_Sulla; BenLurkin; Berosus; CGVet58; ...
Astronomy and Catastrophism topic, not going to do a GGG ping, just ping a few people who may be interested.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

2 posted on 12/14/2005 10:15:04 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: RadioAstronomer

ping


3 posted on 12/14/2005 10:21:35 AM PST by saganite (The poster formerly known as Arkie 2)
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To: SunkenCiv
nicknamed Buffy

Well, gag me with a spoon.

4 posted on 12/14/2005 10:27:53 AM PST by atomicpossum (Replies should be as pedantic as possible. I love that so much.)
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To: SunkenCiv

5 posted on 12/14/2005 10:54:35 AM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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Astronomers poised to apply novel way to look for comets beyond Neptune
EurekAlert | 7-Jan-2003 | Anne Stark
Posted on 11/07/2005 10:41:04 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1517866/posts

Giant Kuiper Belt planetoid Sedna may have formed far beyond Pluto
Physics Org (http://www.physorg.com/) | January 24, 2005 | Southwest Research Institute
Posted on 10/22/2005 1:05:39 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1507383/posts

Tenth Planet Has a Moon!
Space and Earth science | October 03, 2005 | E-Mail Newsletter
Posted on 10/22/2005 9:33:39 PM PDT by vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1507542/posts


6 posted on 12/14/2005 11:04:55 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv
Kuiper Belt, .. believed to be leftover rubble from the Solar System's building phase

I think it's the remains of a planet that broke apart, perhaps due to a collision.

7 posted on 12/14/2005 12:34:39 PM PST by aimhigh
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To: SunkenCiv
believed to be leftover rubble from the Solar System's building phase

I didn't know the contractor for my master suite project had been doing business back then.

8 posted on 12/14/2005 1:52:15 PM PST by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: SunkenCiv

One possibility, the discoverers say, is that, in the infant days of the Solar System, the nascent Neptune lay much closer to the Sun.

Hmmmm...as did the Earth when the earth year had only 10 months of 30 days. Wonder what might have bumped into it?


9 posted on 12/14/2005 5:00:11 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: martin_fierro

10 posted on 12/14/2005 5:06:48 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Tribune7

Nice moonlets


11 posted on 12/14/2005 5:40:25 PM PST by hattend (Dang, it's cold up here.)
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To: RightWhale; Brett66; xrp; gdc314; sionnsar; anymouse; NonZeroSum; jimkress; discostu; The_Victor; ..

12 posted on 12/14/2005 7:37:30 PM PST by KevinDavis (http://www.cafepress.com/spacefuture)
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To: aimhigh; atomicpossum; Fred Nerks; martin_fierro; steve-b
aimhigh: I think it's the remains of a planet that broke apart, perhaps due to a collision.
Perhaps a minor planet / asteroid.
steve-b: I didn't know the contractor for my master suite project had been doing business back then.
And he's still not done.
Fred Nerks: One possibility, the discoverers say, is that, in the infant days of the Solar System, the nascent Neptune lay much closer to the Sun.
I thought you'd like that. :')
martin_fierro: [image of The Monolith]
I guess we'd better attempt no landing there...
atomicpossum: Well, gag me with a spoon.
Oddly enough, as I searched for older topics using Google, I found at least one page which claimed that FReepers hate Buffy the Vampires Layer. I don't, although I do think the show is abysmally stupid.
13 posted on 12/14/2005 10:34:17 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv

Buffy the Vampires Layer...LOL!


14 posted on 12/14/2005 10:39:56 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: Fred Nerks

> as did the Earth when the earth year had only 10 months of 30 days. Wonder what might have bumped into it?


Nothing. What has happened is that the sun has lost considerable mass over the last 5 billion years, whereas the planets have not lost much in the way of kinetic energy or angular momentum WRT their orbits. So as the sun lost mass, the planets sloooowly drifted out. A process which will continue.


15 posted on 12/15/2005 6:33:24 AM PST by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: orionblamblam; Fred Nerks

Bodies in prograde orbits enjoy a transfer of momentum from the rotation parent body, and migrate outward. However, that is a slow process. It hasn't anything to do with any loss of mass of the Sun. Also, the atmosphere of Jupiter is enriched in noble gases, and members of the team which discovered that suggested that it indicated an origin for Jupiter that lay past the outer planets today.


16 posted on 12/15/2005 9:15:47 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: Fred Nerks

Hey, I steal from the best. ;') Actually, I adapted that from some sitcom joke, but forgot to put in the possessive apostrophe. :'o


17 posted on 12/15/2005 9:16:57 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv

>Bodies in prograde orbits enjoy a transfer of momentum from the rotation parent body, and migrate outward. However, that is a slow process. It hasn't anything to do with any loss of mass of the Sun.

True. Nevertheless, the sun has lost considerable mass, and this process has *also* led to the outwards progression of planetary orbits. There is also photon pressure and the solar winds; while trivial forces compared to the mass of the planets, nevertheless over billions of years, some effects can be seen.


18 posted on 12/15/2005 9:18:25 AM PST by orionblamblam (A furore Normannorum libra nos, Domine)
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To: SunkenCiv
Buffy has an almost perfect circular orbit and encircles the Sun at an extreme tilt, at 47 degrees to the orbital plane of the planets as they swing around the Sun...

This is very odd. Circular is no big deal; neither is a 47 degree inclination. It's the combination of the two that need an explanation.

19 posted on 12/15/2005 9:24:25 AM PST by r9etb
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Spitzer Sees the Aftermath of a Planetary Collision
Universe Today | Jan. 10, 2005 | Dolores Beasley and Gay Yee Hill
Posted on 01/13/2005 8:50:18 PM PST by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1320521/posts

Red Planet's Ancient Equator Located
Scientific American (online) | April 20, 2005 | Sarah Graham
Posted on 04/24/2005 8:18:25 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1390424/posts


20 posted on 12/15/2005 9:40:49 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: r9etb

I do wonder why the article calls it almost perfectly circular, since it ranges from 52 to 62 AU, about 20 per cent. The Moon is on an elliptical orbit where there's about 5 per cent difference between apocenter and pericenter. :')


21 posted on 12/15/2005 9:44:09 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv
I do wonder why the article calls it almost perfectly circular, since it ranges from 52 to 62 AU, about 20 per cent.

If those are the elements (52x62 AU), then the eccentricity works out to about 0.08, which is resonably circular -- close enough to zero so that my toolkit of "near-circular approximations" would work just fine.

The question is, how do you get an orbit that circular with an inclination that high? It's hard to think of a "capture" scenario that would work; and it's likewise hard to think of a scenario where something huge knocked this guy out of the ecliptic plane. Either way, you'd expect to see a highly elliptical orbit -- something with an eccentricity over 0.5.

There'd have to be some long-term and regular perturbation to circularize it ... but what would it be?

22 posted on 12/15/2005 9:55:34 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

:') Escape from orbit around something else? Or, it's been out there quite a while, and has had a few bumps, a brute force, monkeys and typewriters method, during encounters with other minor planets. Also, I think the article said it was an oblong piece of rock, so perhaps a very high early rotation rate altered the orbit to what is seen today (and therefore the rotation rate is low today).


23 posted on 12/15/2005 10:19:03 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv
:') Escape from orbit around something else?

Would lead to significant eccentricity with respect to the sun, probably.

Or, it's been out there quite a while, and has had a few bumps, a brute force, monkeys and typewriters method, during encounters with other minor planets.

But this is unlike other bodies in similar orbits....

Also, I think the article said it was an oblong piece of rock, so perhaps a very high early rotation rate altered the orbit to what is seen today (and therefore the rotation rate is low today).

That would probably require a long-term stay by a nearby large body, though (think about the moon's rotation, which slowed to what it is now by gravity gradient/tidal forces). Not to mention that a slowdown in rotation would not, in itself, have any bearing on the orbit of the body. The orbit and rotation would have had to have been affected by the same perturbing force.

24 posted on 12/15/2005 10:50:41 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
But this is unlike other bodies in similar orbits...
...each of which has a unique orbit. :') Also, there are more to be discovered, and eventually this "Buffy" oddball could be known as just the first of a whole family of similar objects. That has definitely happened before.
25 posted on 12/15/2005 11:00:58 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: KevinDavis

Hi.

Please add me to your space ping list.


26 posted on 12/15/2005 11:01:36 AM PST by fanfan (" The liberal party is not corrupt " Prime Minister Paul Martin)
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To: aimhigh

If that is debris from a collision or planetary explosion, there has not been time since the sun was created for the debris to spread over 100 AU.


27 posted on 12/15/2005 11:05:03 AM PST by RightWhale (Not transferable -- Good only for this trip)
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To: SunkenCiv
...each of which has a unique orbit. :') Also, there are more to be discovered, and eventually this "Buffy" oddball could be known as just the first of a whole family of similar objects. That has definitely happened before.

That's certainly possible -- which is why they say its discovery raises questions about the origin of the solar system. As current theory has it, the solar system originated from a spinning ball of gas, which is why everything we know about is pretty close to the ecliptic. To find a bunch of bodies in near-circular, off-ecliptic orbits would suggest some other mechanism.

I say "near-circular" for a reason: highly elliptical bodies would be in orbits that should take them close enough to us for easy observation, and we'd probably already know about them.

28 posted on 12/15/2005 11:22:31 AM PST by r9etb
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To: SunkenCiv

"Also, the atmosphere of Jupiter is enriched in noble gases, and members of the team which discovered that suggested that it indicated an origin for Jupiter that lay past the outer planets today."

Jupiter was once a comet? Paging Cark Sagan...paging Carl Sagan...


29 posted on 12/15/2005 1:15:20 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: Fred Nerks
;')
Jupiter's Composition Throws Planet-formation Theories into Disarray
by Robert Roy Britt
Nov 17 1999
Examining four-year-old data, researchers have found significantly elevated levels of argon, krypton and xenon in Jupiter's atmosphere that may force a rethinking of theories about how the planet, and possibly the entire solar system, formed. Prevailing theories of planetary formation hold that the sun gathered itself together in the center of a pancake-shaped disk of gas and dust, then the planets begin to take shape by cleaning up the leftovers. In Jupiter's current orbit, 5 astronomical units from the sun, temperatures are too warm for the planetesimals to have trapped the noble gases. Only in the Kuiper belt -- a frigid region of the solar system more than 40 AU from the sun -- could planetesimals have trapped argon, krypton and xenon.

While lead researcher Tobias Owen does not put much stock in the idea that Jupiter might have migrated inward to its present position, other scientists on the team say the idea merits consideration. Owen expects the probes will find similarly high levels of noble gases in Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Hints of these gases have even been found in the thick atmosphere of Venus, another planet now begging more study.

30 posted on 12/15/2005 10:24:46 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: r9etb

Definitely.


31 posted on 12/15/2005 10:25:48 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv

"Hints of these gases have even been found in the thick atmosphere of Venus, another planet now begging more study."

Finally!


32 posted on 12/16/2005 2:14:25 AM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: Fred Nerks

I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence, or perhaps incompetence or fraud. ;')


33 posted on 12/16/2005 10:41:22 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv

"I'm sure it's just a huge coincidence, or perhaps incompetence or fraud. ;')"


Dr Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, now there's someone who could tell us...but she died in 1979. (pity, I was hoping she would live long enough to apologise.)


34 posted on 12/16/2005 4:37:20 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: SunkenCiv; USF

Speaking of coincidence, I ran across this last night whilst browsing through WIC...page 195

'In the second half of the second millenium and in the beginning of the first millenium, Venus was still a comet; and though a comet can have a circular orbit - there is such a comet in the solar system -

(The Schwassmann-Wachmann comet, the orbit of which is between the orbits of Jupiter and Saturn.)


35 posted on 12/16/2005 4:45:18 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: SunkenCiv; USF

On the Net: The Venus Tablets.

http://www.kronia.com/library/journals/ventablt.txt


36 posted on 12/16/2005 4:52:21 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Read THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free pdf download - link on My Page)
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To: Fred Nerks
Thanks for that Ammizaduga link.
Google

37 posted on 12/16/2005 10:31:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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To: SunkenCiv

One is just an extremely rare accident.
Wake me when there are two.


38 posted on 12/17/2005 1:06:11 AM PST by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (Give Them Liberty Or Give Them Death! - IT'S ISLAM, STUPID! - Islam Delenda Est! - Rumble thee forth)
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To: r9etb

Coincidence?

If an object typically has an elliptical orbit of some random eccentricity, sometimes the major and minor axes just work out to be nearly equal.

Wake me when we see a statistical distribution.


39 posted on 12/21/2005 3:33:45 PM PST by Netheron
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide

Great minds think alike. I should have read to the end before posting.


40 posted on 12/21/2005 3:35:00 PM PST by Netheron
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To: Netheron
If an object typically has an elliptical orbit of some random eccentricity, sometimes the major and minor axes just work out to be nearly equal.

Huh?

The problem is not one of "randomness," it's one of orbital mechanics.

41 posted on 12/21/2005 4:42:12 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb

So two bodies can't have a gravitational interaction which throws one off of the plane of the ecliptic and just 'happens' to also have a circular orbit?

We've only got one body here to go on. If it was an entire accretion disk remnant (lots of co-planar bodies in circular orbits) off of the plane of the ecliptic, then we'd have a major theory malfunction.


42 posted on 12/21/2005 5:30:08 PM PST by Netheron
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To: Netheron
So two bodies can't have a gravitational interaction which throws one off of the plane of the ecliptic and just 'happens' to also have a circular orbit?

It could happen -- but the sticking points are that for the orbit to be as circular as this, the perturbing body must:

1. have been about the same distance from the sun when the conjunction occurred (the new orbit has to include the point of close approach);
2. have a pretty circular orbit (else it would probably have been spotted by now);
3. has got to be fairly large.

So where is the perturbing body?

We've only got one body here to go on. If it was an entire accretion disk remnant (lots of co-planar bodies in circular orbits) off of the plane of the ecliptic, then we'd have a major theory malfunction.

True. It's an odd duck -- and there's no good answer to how it got the way it is. Now that they've found this guy outside of the ecliptic they might try to find others. If they do, then indeed there's a major theory malfunction. If not, then they've got to explain this guy's orbit.

43 posted on 12/21/2005 7:00:26 PM PST by r9etb
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System of three stars harbors newfound world
MSNBC.MSN.com | July 13, 2005 | By Michael Schirber
Posted on 07/15/2005 4:08:14 AM PDT by eagle11
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1443405/posts


44 posted on 12/28/2005 1:48:13 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("In silence, and at night, the Conscience feels that life should soar to nobler ends than Power.")
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Catastrophism

45 posted on 03/26/2006 8:23:52 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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Comet's course hints at mystery planet [ from 2001 ]
Govert Schilling | last updated February 5th, 2002 | Govert Schilling
Posted on 08/18/2006 5:36:59 PM EDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1686125/posts


46 posted on 10/20/2006 11:44:51 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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· X-Planets ping list · join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark ·

47 posted on 10/20/2006 11:46:53 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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Crisis In The Cosmos?
Science News Online | 10-13-2005 | Ron Cowen
Posted on 10/13/2005 8:15:33 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1502092/posts


48 posted on 10/23/2006 10:23:39 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Dhimmicrati delenda est! https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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