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German battlefield yields Roman surprises
CNN ^ | 2009 | unattributed

Posted on 05/13/2013 6:09:08 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Archaeologists have found more than 600 relics from a huge battle between a Roman army and Barbarians in the third century, long after historians believed Rome had given up control of northern Germany.

"We have to write our history books new, because what we thought was that the activities of the Romans ended at nine or 10 (years) after Christ," said Lutz Stratmann, science minister for the German state of Lower Saxony. "Now we know that it must be 200 or 250 after that."

For weeks, archeologist Petra Loenne and her team have been searching this area with metal detectors, pulling hundreds of ancient Roman weapons out of the ground. They paint a picture of a highly organized, technologically superior Roman army beset by Germanic tribes in a forest about 80 km (50 miles) south of the modern city of Hanover.

The hillside battlefield was discovered by relic-hunters illegally searching for souvenirs of more recent wars near the town of Kalefeld-Oldenrode. One of them brought some of the items he found to Loenne, who works for the local government...

"We believe the Germans ambushed the Romans here, but the legions quickly fired back with catapults and archers -- and then it came to a massive man-on-man onslaught," Loenne said.

The items unearthed so far include an axe, still sharp after nearly 1,800 years; horseshoes; shovels; spearheads; and dozens of arrowheads for a Scorpio, a cross between a catapult and a crossbow -- the ancient equivalent of artillery...

Researchers say the evidence suggests the tribesmen lured the Romans into the forest to keep them from making full use of those long-range weapons and draw them into hand-to-hand combat, outside of the formations the imperial troops had mastered. However, they believe the Romans ultimately prevailed...

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: germaniamagna; germany; godsgravesglyphs; kalefeld; lowersaxony; metaldetecting; oldenrode; romanempire; teutoburgforest

The quotes suggest an odd lack of understanding of Roman warfare.
Some of the artifacts are so well preserved that the scientists can already retrace some of the battle lines.

Some of the artifacts are so well preserved that the scientists can already retrace some of the battle lines.

1 posted on 05/13/2013 6:09:08 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; decimon; 1010RD; 21twelve; 24Karet; 2ndDivisionVet; ...

 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
The red dot on the map shows the location.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


2 posted on 05/13/2013 6:15:17 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv
"Quinctilius Varus, give me back my Legions!" Oh, wait...that was a different German ambush, a few hundred years earlier.
3 posted on 05/13/2013 6:16:38 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: SunkenCiv

‘an axe, still sharp after nearly 1,800 years”

http://www.johnspeedie.com/healy/bull.wav


4 posted on 05/13/2013 6:23:06 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: Flag_This

The consequences of the Varian disaster have been terribly exaggerated in the past 150-200 years to serve German nationalism.

http://www.google.com/search?q=teutoburg%20monument


5 posted on 05/13/2013 6:26:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv
If you ever listen to podcasts give Mike Duncan's The History of Rome a try. I'm just over halfway done and can't think of a better thing to listen to while I'm at work.
6 posted on 05/13/2013 6:32:12 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: SunkenCiv

lotta good thats done them


7 posted on 05/13/2013 6:34:14 PM PDT by bigheadfred ( barry your mouth is writing checks your ass cant cash)
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To: BenLurkin

You must be thinking about the blade Narsil.


8 posted on 05/13/2013 6:34:35 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: SunkenCiv
"The consequences of the Varian disaster have been terribly exaggerated in the past 150-200 years to serve German nationalism."

When you consider the loses the Romans just shrugged off during the 1st and 2nd Punic Wars, losing 2 or 3 legions does kind of pale in comparison.

9 posted on 05/13/2013 6:35:13 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: Sawdring

Thanks, I’ll try that. I need a soundtrack at work, and music is sometimes distracting, or the dynamics rise and fall too much to be convenient.


10 posted on 05/13/2013 6:35:59 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: GreyFriar

send link to Joe


11 posted on 05/13/2013 6:41:02 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: SunkenCiv

This vexes me. I am very vexed.


12 posted on 05/13/2013 6:42:04 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SunkenCiv

niiiice sitting there at work with some fantasy playing in your head


13 posted on 05/13/2013 6:42:38 PM PDT by bigheadfred ( barry your mouth is writing checks your ass cant cash)
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To: Flag_This

The Roman force was on the move with all its baggage and households (and camp followers), which is weird behavior. Perhaps the objective was to winter over in a less remote or more defensible location.

The adversary Arminius was from the Roman auxiliaries and had served Rome, but turned coat. He understood his enemy very well, and of course it was a surprise attack.

The punitive expedition to hunt him down along with his followers ran into an ambush, but discipline and formation held; Arminius thought he was on the verge of a second great victory (and massacre), and shouted taunts at the Roman commander. He wound up having to flee for his life, and his forces were either slaughtered or scattered.

A few years later, in hiding deep in barbarian territory, he was murdered by members of his own family, probably at the behest of Rome, and for cash.

Meanwhile, the Romans reoccupied the lost territory — it was hardly “The Battle That Stopped Rome” as the recent-years book claims. The modern understanding of the full extent of Roman occupation has continually been expanded to the east and north, during the postwar period, likely as a result of the changing needs of modern politics.


14 posted on 05/13/2013 6:45:35 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: bigheadfred

Heh, the same kind of use has been made of Boudicca by the UK — she was a bloodthirsty, mass-murdering nutjob who led 70,000 Celts from dozens of British tribes into an abatoir, and yet is held up as an anachronistic nationalist hero. Ridiculous.

France, under Napoleon III, conducted an investigation of one of the purported sites of the massive Battle of Alesia, which was the huge, final defeat for the Gallic tribes under Vercingetorix — but again, used as an anachronistic nationalist symbol.

WWII was made possible by the relative low losses of German soldiery in WWI. Had their losses in WWI been anything like is *still* churned out of British textbooks, Germany would never have been able to start, much less sustain, WWII.

Okay, yeah, that paragraph only makes sense in my overall milieu.


15 posted on 05/13/2013 6:51:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SkyPilot

They lied to me in Germania. If they lie to me, they don’t respect me.


16 posted on 05/13/2013 6:55:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: Sawdring

Thanks for that link!


17 posted on 05/13/2013 6:55:29 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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Canal of Drusus:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1181760/posts?page=3#3


18 posted on 05/13/2013 6:59:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv

gee i wonder how it wouldve turned out if some 6th century goat screwing pedophile claimed to be a prophet from god...


19 posted on 05/13/2013 7:01:13 PM PDT by bigheadfred ( barry your mouth is writing checks your ass cant cash)
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To: SunkenCiv

How dare you show your back to me! Slave, you will remove your helmet and tell me who you are!


20 posted on 05/13/2013 7:01:23 PM PDT by SkyPilot
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To: SkyPilot

I hadn’t watched it in years (kinda lost track of the DVD) then a few weeks back I found the BluRay super cheap at one of the warehouse clubs. I couldn’t believe how magnificent the transfer onto BluRay is. I’ve watched it a couple of times, the version with the extra footage.


21 posted on 05/13/2013 7:31:26 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I think Bill Clinton lost one of those.


22 posted on 05/13/2013 7:33:30 PM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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"Roman Empire" keyword, newest to oldest:
23 posted on 05/13/2013 7:38:20 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: blueunicorn6

LOL!


24 posted on 05/13/2013 7:39:11 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: bigheadfred

Yeah, what a reli- hey, wait a second...


25 posted on 05/13/2013 7:39:40 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Those Romans—they never let go of any land without a fight—they were tough monkeys! they didn’t give up there Empire without a few battles.


26 posted on 05/13/2013 7:42:52 PM PDT by Forward the Light Brigade (Into the Jaws of H*ll)
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To: Forward the Light Brigade

They didn’t take kindly to setbacks. :’)


27 posted on 05/13/2013 8:08:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: SunkenCiv

“Stwike Hewmann, Centuwion Maximus. Stwike him vewy wuffly!”
Meditations and Enunciations of Mawcus Auwelius


28 posted on 05/13/2013 9:59:23 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's founding fathers: All armed conservatives.)
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To: SunkenCiv
I agree the situation was much more fluid that is commonly believed. The history books suggest Verus was defeated, the Legions withdrew and the Romans threw up an Iron Curtain.

In reality, there would have been much trade and travel across the border. Rome was where the action, money and goods were and the "barbarians" had things to offer in exchange.

29 posted on 05/14/2013 1:40:25 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: SunkenCiv

...and music is sometimes distracting....

***
What? And listening to an informative podcast would not distract you from your work?

Thanks for the ping. This sounds like a great dig.


30 posted on 05/20/2013 5:16:47 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Restore us, O God of hosts; let your face shine, that we may be saved! -Ps80)
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To: Sawdring
"If you ever listen to podcasts give Mike Duncan's The History of Rome a try."

Thank you for posting that link. I've been listening the last few days - it's great.

31 posted on 05/20/2013 5:24:36 PM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: Flag_This; SkyPilot; SunkenCiv

When you get done or want to take a break listen to Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History as well. His Wrath Of The Khans series was great. His stuff is usually in 4 hour blocks instead of 25 minute shows.


32 posted on 05/20/2013 6:16:22 PM PDT by Sawdring
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To: SunkenCiv

In the book The Fifteen Decisive Battles of the World by Creasy mentions how the Germanic victory over Varius saved the Germanic civilization and eventually led to the modern (1800s) German Republic.

On a History Channel show not long back, the Germanic Victory over Varius showed how it led to the Nazis and the world would have been better off with Germany being Romanized.


33 posted on 05/01/2014 11:36:17 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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To: SunkenCiv

How in the world did I miss all this good stuff! Put me on your PING list!


34 posted on 05/01/2014 11:37:40 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Sometimes you need 7+ more ammo. LOTS MORE.)
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