Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Split Between English and Scots Older Than Thought
The Scotsman ^ | 11APR04 | Louise Gray

Posted on 04/11/2004 6:50:11 PM PDT by WoofDog123

The ancient split between the English and Scots is older than previously thought, an Oxford don said today.

Traditionally the difference between the English and Scots, Welsh, Irish and Cornish was attributed to the foreign influence of invading forces such as the Anglo-Saxons, Celts and Vikings settling in different areas of Britain hundreds of years ago.

But Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University, believes the difference originates much further back in history.

In a book tracing humankind from its origins in Africa 80,000 years ago, Prof Oppenheimer develops a theory of the original inhabitants of Britain.

The professor of clinical sociomedical sciences at Oxford University said the Celts of Western Scotland, Wales, Ireland and Cornwall are descended from an ancient people living on the Atlantic coast while Britain was still attached to mainland Europe, while the English are more closely related to the Germanic peoples of the interior.

As evidence he cites genetic data showing the Celts are more closely related to the Basque people of south west France and the Celts of Brittany and Spain, while the English are closer to the Germans descended from the Anglo Saxons.

In the past the split was attributed to “migration, invasion and replacement”, but Prof Oppenheimer said the difference was established long before Britain was even an island.

He said: “The first line between England and the Celts was put down at a much earlier period, say 10,000 years ago.”

The professor, who is speaking at the Edinburgh Science Festival tonight, said Britons are descended from the original settlers, rather than later invasions, and as such were already split by the western divide.

He said: “The English are the odd-ones-out because they are the ones more linked to continental Europe.

“The Scots, the Irish, the Welsh and the Cornish are all very similar in their genetic pattern to the Basque.”

However, the professor did say later invasions will have influenced the developing cultures in different areas of Britain.

He said: “The people themselves may have been more conservative about their movement but accepted new cultures coming in at different dates.”

The revelations are all part of Prof Oppenheimer’s controversial theory, expanded in his book The Real Eve: Modern Man’s Journey Out of Africa, that humans migrated from Africa and populated the planet.

The professor will speak about his theory in a talk entitled Out of Eden at the Apex International Hotel in the Grassmarket tonight


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Unclassified; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anglosaxons; archaeology; caledonia; celts; economic; geneology; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; pict; pictish; picts; vikings; worldhistory
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last
"As evidence he cites genetic data showing the Celts are more closely related to the Basque people of south west France and the Celts of Brittany and Spain, while the English are closer to the Germans descended from the Anglo Saxons."

The only surprise here is that the basque are genetically related to the celts. The rest of this stuff is easily deduced from the last couple of thousand years of history.

The west vs east proposal doesn't make clear where in the east of britain they are surprised to find germanic genes, though what I have read in other articles says that celtic genes are more common in England itself than was previously expected. From northumbria south was heavily settled by A-S tribes, danes, etc., from the 5th century onward. The pictish areas of scotland are not mentioned. What about any of this (besides basque-celtic genetic link) is a surprise at all? Obviously the celts would be genetically related to each other (brittany received its current celts from wales and cornwall celts running from anglo-saxons, etc).

What part of any of this is a surprise given the linguo-ethnic map of the roman empire in circa 400, and the known subsequent migrations?

1 posted on 04/11/2004 6:50:12 PM PDT by WoofDog123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
If 't aina Sco'ish, IT'S CRAP!
2 posted on 04/11/2004 6:52:06 PM PDT by Benrand
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Implicit is the idea that the different ethnic or nationality groups in UK maintain separate breeding circles.

This would tend to support the contention of each side of the divide that the other's womenfolk are either elephants or shrews.

3 posted on 04/11/2004 6:54:46 PM PDT by muawiyah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
I dinna ken Basque (ancestry from Inverness on my Dad's side).
4 posted on 04/11/2004 6:55:14 PM PDT by Zuben Elgenubi
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123; Gvan; Welsh Rabbit; ecurbh; dennisw; Michael2001; Wally_Kalbacken; Corin Stormhands; ...
celtic anthropology ping
5 posted on 04/11/2004 6:55:22 PM PDT by risk
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123

6 posted on 04/11/2004 7:02:29 PM PDT by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Tax-chick
Tomorrow ...
7 posted on 04/11/2004 7:02:50 PM PDT by Tax-chick (See baby pictures on the Tax-chick page!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Some years ago the goodwife and I undertook our first tour of Scotland, following business in the north of England. Upon arrival in Berwick-upon-Tweed (from which my Scottish forebears sailed to America -- an unusual point of departure), she was told by a local that, despite Berwick being in English hands for 700+ years, "We're still Scottish here!"
8 posted on 04/11/2004 7:04:50 PM PDT by Eala (Sacrificing tagline fame for... TRAD ANGLICAN RESOURCE PAGE: http://eala.freeservers.com/anglican)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam; Fedora; JimSEA
Ping!
9 posted on 04/11/2004 7:05:09 PM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
I'm sort of interested in where the surrender/appeasment gene came into the mix.
10 posted on 04/11/2004 7:07:19 PM PDT by wagglebee
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
"What part of any of this is a surprise given the linguo-ethnic map of the roman empire in circa 400, and the known subsequent migrations?"

With a little more time to type now, for those who aren't already familiar with it, I will put some more info on the historical migrations which make the current ethnic picture.

The Welsh and Cornish are the ethno-linguistic remnants of the apparently dominant celtic group in southern britain at the end of the roman period. Their were extended at least up into the cumbrian mountains (the name is derived from the same name the welsh give themselves, Cymru, or the language, Cymraeg,). Cornish and Welsh were basicly identical languages with very few changes over the roughly 1300 years of geographical separation until cornish became extinct under an English language-cleansing programme. Bretons actually immigrated from western britain during the germanic invasion period. I am not sure if there is any concensus on whether the language spoken by the various tribes the romans found in their invasion 54AD(?) was a p-celtic language or not, though I assume so. The romans apparently didn't take much interest in documenting the languages of subject peoples. One such tribe, the Pritani, would become the source of the name of the island Britain (p-celtic p-->b mutation)

I don't know what the ethnic composition of western scotland was before the Irish invaded, but the language of scots gaelic, Manx (extinct, Isle of Man) and Ireland were very similar with a common root. Western Scotland saw the establishment of small Irish kingdoms, eventually merging and politically conquering the Pictish kingdom of the East of scotland about a thousand years ago.

There are virtually no remaining traces of the Pictish language aside from some placenames, but it is generally assumed to be p-celtic (like welsh, cornish, etc.) One scholar wrote a work arguing it was finno-ugric, related to the language of finland, estonia, hungary. I would think genetic studies could clear this up once and for all in the east and northeast of scotland. Maybe there have already been some.

Large-scale (west) germanic immigrationinvasion into eastern and southern britain began in the 5th century, pushing out or assimilating/enslaving the remaining romano-celtic population, with nothing but placenames to attest to the celtic language's past presence. Scandinavian immigration began in the late 9th century to the north and eastern parts of england, and added to the ethnic mix, also altering the english language in a number of ways in those areas. This language would become the dominant dialect of english.

Aside from the basque connection, I am not sure where the article is pointing out a status-quo that was older than what I have listd above.
11 posted on 04/11/2004 7:13:59 PM PDT by WoofDog123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
I think the basque and celtic languages have some overlap as well.
12 posted on 04/11/2004 7:41:06 PM PDT by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
YEC INTREP - I have a book based on excellent research that traces the original inhabitants of the British Isles directly back to Japheth!
13 posted on 04/11/2004 7:57:05 PM PDT by LiteKeeper
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Ragin' Willie
14 posted on 04/11/2004 8:03:12 PM PDT by olde north church (Victory has a 1000 fathers, defeat is an orphan.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
So the English are related to Germans. Duh!!! It's called Angle"s Land, after the invasion/migration of north german Angles and Saxons into Britain in the late fifth and early sixth century. This is the source of the Legend of Arthur, who was probably a Celtic chieftain rallying the tribes after the departure of the Legions in 410 had left the Celtic Britons on their own. So complete was the Anglo Saxon triumph that some say there is not a place in England that bears a Celtic name, nor a word in English that remains from the Gaelic of the Celts. Is it so hard to believe that the descendants of these invaders would dominate the land genetically?
15 posted on 04/11/2004 8:31:36 PM PDT by xkaydet65 (" You have never tasted freedom my friend, else you would know, it is purchased not with gold, but w)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TigerLikesRooster; WoofDog123
English And Welsh Are Races Apart

9,000 Year Old Cheddar Man still has relatives living in the area he occupied in his life, 9,000 years ago.

16 posted on 04/11/2004 9:00:10 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Basque

(Why are the Basque so fascinating?)


17 posted on 04/11/2004 9:08:36 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: blam; SunkenCiv
BUMP N Ping
18 posted on 04/11/2004 9:22:29 PM PDT by ValerieUSA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: xkaydet65
"So complete was the Anglo Saxon triumph that some say there is not a place in England that bears a Celtic name, nor a word in English that remains from the Gaelic of the Celts. Is it so hard to believe that the descendants of these invaders would dominate the land genetically?"

There are like a whopping 2 or 3 loanwords surviving into modern english. Crag is one, i think but am not sure tor is another.

On the otherhand, placenames (romano-british, in any event) DID survive in good part, though sometimes with addition of an OE suffix, i.e. cester. many anciently-sited cities, most rivers, etc., have kept elements of their historical names (either roman , maybe pre-roman), often very recognisable. Placenames, of course, are the LAST language artifact to change, and many european place-names go back with some mutation as far as we have recorded history, despite howevermany invasions, ethnic replacements, conquests, etc., went on.

As far as the genetic issue, surprisingly there is a decent mix of celtic genes in the english population, much more than had been expected based on the apparent total eradication of romano-celtic culture. I think I saw the article on FR a couple of months ago, or if not on archaeologica.org. I cannot remember the details now, but it implied a decent % of celtic breeding stock (women or slaves or whatever) remained in the saxon/anglish areas.
19 posted on 04/11/2004 9:22:37 PM PDT by WoofDog123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
For those of us who wear the tartans with pride, we knew this all along because of the differences between P Gaelic and Q Gaelic...The tales of our origins are very clear and it is always nice to see that someone other than us finally understands....
20 posted on 04/12/2004 12:28:11 AM PDT by jnarcus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jnarcus
What about your eastern brethren, the former pictish areas? What did they speak prior to the irish immivasion in the dark ages? Most seem to think it was a p-celtic language due to the names of some pictish leaders adn places, but with nothing but carved stones to go by....
21 posted on 04/12/2004 3:26:26 PM PDT by WoofDog123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Stones last other forms of writing typically are affected by the environment....And Ogham is considered a written laguage of great age...I refer to both P and Q which really seems to break more along a north and south line on the Great Isle...And just for fun compare the Ogham to some of the cuniform types of writing that have been found on various mud slabs from Phoenician times....
22 posted on 04/12/2004 11:16:20 PM PDT by jnarcus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
The DNA testing done to date has confirmed that the people of the Pictish regions of Scotland, i.e., the NE, are genetically 95% similar to the Basques, which makes the Pictish NE probably the "purest" 'proto-basque' population of the British Isles, given that apart from a few anglicised Briton and Flemish merchant immigrants the people of NE Scotland are the same as they always have been. Indigenous, as it were. My own NE Scottish DNA testing is 95% matched to the Basque population of the Pyrenees. It should be noted that Columba, the gaelic speaking Irishman, needed an interpreter to prosleytize the Picts...perhaps they were speaking a Basque derivative as recently as the early middle ages. As well, genetically, the Western Norwegian Vikings who settled Orkney and Sheltand, are quite distinct -- more paleo, and probably more proto-basque themselves -- from the other Scandinavian vikings, namely the thoroughly indo-European Danes and Swedes and Vandals and Goths....
23 posted on 04/12/2004 11:35:19 PM PDT by JohCol (The DNA results are in on ALL of Scotland: the Picts were proto-Basques...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: JohCol
That is very interesting; off the top of my head, the implication seems to be that the picts, like the basques, are the remnant of a widespread migration across western europe before recorded history. It isn't impossible that they were actually one of the first wide migrations since the ice melted; i.e. stone age.

I didn't know that about colomba needing an interpreter; I am not sure if he would have needed one for a p-celtic language, or if he even spoke/understood p-celtic enough to do his work. The lack of almost any pictish language remnants is a real mystery. How it disappeared quietly with no visible trace baffles me.

Do you know of any other ethnic groups with high %-correlation to basque dna?
24 posted on 04/13/2004 8:43:20 AM PDT by WoofDog123
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
The Irish are, like the Scots, and the Welsh, and the Bretons, strongly genetically matched with the Basques. But then, so are people of all the regions first populated by the 'proto-basques' who descended from the Pyrenees aftger the last Ice Age: Northern Spanish, and Portuguese; Western and north western French, and, Icelanders, seeing as how they are largely a blend of Western Norewgians (likely more Basque themselves than the rest of Scandinavia) and British Islanders.
As for the original divide, it seems likely that groups that over-wintered in the Balkans, and later moved into Germany also moved in to England, and so were related to who were to become Anglo-Saxons, long before we knew who the Angles et al were; meaning that the proto-basques likely lived next to small groups of non-proto-basques, the latter were 'stranded' on the Island, and were subsequently 'celticised' during the first invasions from teh Contintent, and then, subsequently, 'Teutonicized' BY THEIR OWN GENETIC KIN once again -- the Anglo-Saxons. That is why so many Britons were so easily absorbed in to the Anglo-Saxon society and why you can very seldom tell them apart...not because anglo-saxons conqured Britons, but because the Britons, to a considerable degree, were ALREADY very much like the Anglo-Saxons, and their continentalist kin, the Celts.
25 posted on 04/13/2004 9:12:25 AM PDT by JohCol (The DNA results are in on ALL of Scotland: the Picts were proto-Basques...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123; *Gods, Graves, Glyphs; A.J.Armitage; abner; adam_az; AdmSmith; Alas Babylon!; ...
Gods, Graves, Glyphs
List for articles regarding early civilizations , life of all forms, - dinosaurs - etc.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this ping list.
26 posted on 04/13/2004 10:17:51 AM PDT by farmfriend ( Isaiah 55:10,11)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: farmfriend
btt
27 posted on 04/13/2004 10:40:38 AM PDT by Ciexyz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: blam
Professor Stephen Oppenheimer of Oxford University is the author of "Eden in the East: The Drowned Continent of Southeast Asia" and he has done a lot on the post Ice Age Flooding.
28 posted on 04/13/2004 11:25:40 AM PDT by JimSEA ( "More Bush, Less Taxes.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: JimSEA
Thanks. On your recommendation, I will place an order friday evening.


29 posted on 04/13/2004 4:27:37 PM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
THANK YOU FOR ONE OF THE MOST THOUGHT-PROVOKING ARTICLES I'VE SEEN ON FR. I di'na ken.
30 posted on 04/13/2004 9:26:27 PM PDT by rightofrush (right of Rush, and Buchanan too.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
Perhaps bagpipes were invented sooner than we think, which would easily explain the split.
31 posted on 04/13/2004 11:40:11 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123; blam; farmfriend
A thought occured to me over night.

When's the last time you've seen a red-haired Basque?

32 posted on 04/14/2004 10:57:15 AM PDT by rightofrush (right of Rush, and Buchanan too.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: rightofrush
RedHeads 'Are Neanderthal'
33 posted on 04/14/2004 11:15:36 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: rightofrush
The Curse Of The Red-Headed Mummy
34 posted on 04/14/2004 11:20:23 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: rightofrush
The Art Of Being A Redhead

Lady Godiva c. 1898

35 posted on 04/14/2004 11:25:31 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: blam
Nice link.
Nice picture of the village of Elanxobe, my grandfathers home. I used to climb those hills, and play in the harbor as a boy. There are moray eels along the breakwaters.
The place is worth a visit if you are ever in Bilbao.
36 posted on 04/14/2004 11:40:09 AM PDT by buwaya
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: buwaya
Guggenheim-Bilbao
37 posted on 04/14/2004 11:46:38 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: blam
A very pretty lady, but again I ask: when was the last time that you saw a red-headed Basque?
38 posted on 04/15/2004 10:54:28 AM PDT by rightofrush (right of Rush, and Buchanan too.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: blam
Chinese red-heads --> Sythians --> Celts?
Idaho has the highest population of Basques in the US, and I've never seen a red-headed Basque.
39 posted on 04/15/2004 11:00:21 AM PDT by rightofrush (right of Rush, and Buchanan too.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: rightofrush
"when was the last time that you saw a red-headed Basque?"

I've only know one guy that I knew to be Basque...he was not red-headed so, I've never seen a red-headed Basque. Incidently, the incident of red-headedness in Libya is the same as it is in Ireland.

40 posted on 04/15/2004 11:43:39 AM PDT by blam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: blam
The reason the incidence of red hair in Ireland and Libya is the same is because the two peoples are very much relatied -- from proto-Basques. The Basques are notoriously blue eyed, and do have some red hair; I have seen a Basque with reddish hair, but not out right orange-red like you find in Ireland. At any rate, the blue-eyed Basque element is what accounts for the blue eyes and blonde hair found in a large percentage of the Berbers of North Africa -- NOT from the Vandals as is so erroneously and popularly believed. In short the Libyans are largely proto-Basque-Hamitic, with Arabic overlay; the Irish are proto-Basque, separated from Basques-proper by several thousand years in a more northern environment which accounts for the more fair skind and hair among the Micks, who also, obviously have a minor, continental celtic overlay. It has often been remarked upon how closely the many Libyans resemble many Scots...
41 posted on 04/29/2004 12:08:09 AM PDT by JohCol (The DNA results are in on ALL of Scotland: the Picts were proto-Basques...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123; blam
The only surprise here is that the basque are genetically related to the celts

Not really, the Basque have been surrounded by Celtic folk for thousands of years. Its no surprise that, while they maintained their language, they interbreed with the neighbouring regions.
42 posted on 04/29/2004 12:21:42 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: WoofDog123
BEsides which, the Celts moved into Europe only around 3000 BC or later, in consistance with other Indo-European migrations from Central Asia-Persia-India
43 posted on 04/29/2004 12:23:00 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: JohCol; WoofDog123
I would think that the Picts are not related to the Celts at all.
44 posted on 04/29/2004 12:26:27 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Benrand
If 't aina Sco'ish, IT'S CRAP!

ROFL! My wife has this on a sweatshirt we got in Canada 10-12 years ago and it's still her favorite.

45 posted on 04/29/2004 12:26:43 AM PDT by Heatseeker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: JohCol
That is why so many Britons were so easily absorbed in to the Anglo-Saxon society

Are you sure? Most history shows that the Britons were pushed back by the invading GErmanics and moved into Cymru (Wales) and Cornwall. Their land was occupied by the Angles or Saxons or Friesians
46 posted on 04/29/2004 12:28:27 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: rightofrush
The term Scythian seems to have been a generic Sumerian-Akkadian word for Barbarians. The Scythians also seem to have consisted of a wide range of tribes -- Slavic, Germanic, etc.
47 posted on 04/29/2004 12:32:20 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: JohCol
Ghaddafi in a kilt?????
48 posted on 04/29/2004 12:32:42 AM PDT by Cronos (W2K4)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: JohCol
bttt
49 posted on 04/29/2004 12:37:15 AM PDT by nopardons
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: JohCol
Note also there was a Viking kingdom based in Dublin during the early middle ages which might account for some of those blond locks. ;)

As for the Celts-as-Basques thing, when one considers the great antiquity of the "tin route" (the trade route out of the central Mediterranean, around/stopping off in Iberia, and ending in Cornwall and vicinity) it seems fairly reasonable.

That said, I think more DNA testing and statistical analysis is required.

50 posted on 04/29/2004 1:11:56 AM PDT by Heatseeker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-65 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson