Avian Flu Surveillance Project

Various ^ | May 9, 2005 | Vanity

[Dog Gone]

Some folks suggested that we begin a thread similar to the Marsburg Surveillance Project for monitoring developments regarding Avian Flu.

The purpose is to have an extended thread where those interested can post articles and comments as this story unfolds.

If we're lucky, the story and this thread will fade away.

[Iowa Granny]

thanks

[Judith Anne]

We need some lab or clinical trials on the usefulness of ordinary resveratrol supplements, not lab grade, nitrogen packed stuff

Good luck with that...I'm not sure, after the antioxidant exchange, if you're asking questions or if you have a broad knowledge base on supplements. I don't, as you must have guessed.

My guess is that resveratrol is less useful as a tnf-A or IL inhibitor than other supplements may be. For example, curcumin 95% standardized has been lab shown to have Cox inhibitor-like effects as far as inflammation is concerned, to have anti-inflammatory effects similar to the corticosteroids at some levels, and also to cause emptying of the gall bladder, so that people who have gall stones should probably not take it. Neither should pregnant or nursing women, because the effects at a high level on those populations aren't known. As far as toxicity, large doses apparently can be taken with no ill effects on the rest of the population who are not pregnant and have no gall stones.

But resveratrol, on the other hand, is found in high levels in, say, Pinot Noir wine, (or whatever wine) and rapidly degrades after the bottle is opened. In other words, (as you suggest) so far, it's unstable for practical use.

Let me go a little further and state that nobody here is prescribing. These are well-known substances that have had recent research showing that they MAY be helpful in case of various viral infection. No research has been done on any of them with H5N1 patients, to the best of my knowledge.

Some here have found what seems to possibly be helpful, through their own reading and use. I sincerely doubt that there is going to be a huge research effort anywhere in the world that is going to give us definitive answers on the use of supplements that possibly have antiviral action in an H5N1 pandemic.

What we are looking for is known supplements with antiviral action that are inexpensive and relatively easy to stock up for possible need. I bet very few care about the antioxidant levels, but I could be wrong.

And I DO apologize--I thought you were asking a question about antioxidants, and it's clear I was mistaken.

[ThePythonicCow]

And I DO apologize--I thought you were asking a question about antioxidants, and it's clear I was mistaken.

Heavens to mercy - no need to apologize. I DID ask a straightforward looking question about antioxidants. Unless you're some kind of mind reader, there was no way you could have guessed that I held some rather odd opinions on the subject.

Sorry I surprised you on that one. Take care and keep up the good work.

[Judith Anne]

Then all is well. Thanks. ;-D

[steve86]

CAUTION: My family has already had one incident with bleeding encouraged by turmeric/curcumin. I won't go into details, but the warnings about not taking curcumin with blood thinners like coumadin apparently have a real basis in fact. No coumadin was involved, just the potent thinning ability of curcumin itself. This was the 95% hot rod version. I assume that natural turmeric, like what JA takes, probably wouldn't do this.

[Judith Anne]

Appreciate the clarification. I hope that warning is on the supplement bottle. I've never seen one, but it should be.

[steve86]

The claim of one producer of resveratrol supplement, Longevintex, is that all the other supplements are nearly inactive, due to how easy it is to oxidize resveratrol.

There is a long history of proprietary herbal formulas that claim to render all the competitors obsolete, for one reason or another. I am skeptical and would like to see the results of independent testing as well. I remember in the 80s a friend of mine was selling a vitamin supplement that was "1000% more active" than the others. I don't believe the company is still in business.

[ThePythonicCow]

I am skeptical

Good idea. I for one am skeptical of all parties to this controversy.

[steve86]

I guess if we come down with H5N1 the proper procedure would be to drink a whole case of Pinot Noir, or swallow a whole bottle of supplement, just to get a microgram or two of resveratrol into the bloodstream. (don't try this at home).

I am especially skeptical of health websites that start out with a Flash presentation and ones where the president of the company writes the research reports.

Having said that, I guess the oxidation and liver metabolism issues are something to keep in mind.

[ThePythonicCow]

There are enough other cytokine storm inhibitors on 2ndreconmarine's list, available for lower cost, to keep me busy taking pills ;).

In any case, I wouldn't wait until I had the avian flu (H5N1) before taking these remedies. They seem to take days, if not weeks, to build up affect in some cases, and H5N1 can take you down in hours, by the worse case scenarios.

Here's where we have a -big- advantage over previous pandemics. Something like FreeRepublic.com can provide us better early warning, so we can start to take measures before it likely gets to us personally.

[steve86]

Infectious Disease 2005 May 15;191(10):1719-29. Epub 2005 Apr 13.
Palamara AT, Nencioni L, Aquilano K, De Chiara G, Hernandez L, Cozzolino F, Ciriolo MR, Garaci E.
Institute of Microbiology, University of Rome La Sapienza, Rome, Italy. annateresa.palamara@uniroma1.it
We have previously shown that the life cycles of several viruses are influenced by host-cell redox states. Reports of the antioxidant activities of the plant polyphenol resveratrol (RV) prompted us to investigate its effects on influenza virus replication in vitro and in vivo. We found that RV strongly inhibited the replication of influenza virus in MDCK cells but that this activity was not directly related to glutathione-mediated antioxidant activity. Rather, it involved the blockade of the nuclear-cytoplasmic translocation of viral ribonucleoproteins and reduced expression of late viral proteins seemingly related to the inhibition of protein kinase C activity and its dependent pathways. RV also significantly improved survival and decreased pulmonary viral titers in influenza virus-infected mice. No toxic effects were observed in vitro or in vivo. That RV acts by inhibiting a cellular, rather than a viral, function suggests that it could be a particularly valuable anti-influenza drug.

Why would they note in vivo if it was essentially impossible to get free resveratrol into the bloodstream?

[steve86]

Yes, we have started the regimen ahead of time also but the curcumin incident today left us a little dazed...

[ThePythonicCow]

With other blood thinners, I usually noticed a tendency to bruise more easily and clot more slowly, which I took as a sign to back off.

Without the details of this curcumin incident, it is difficult to know what level of risk it presented, even in this one case. Anecdotal evidence, even with the details, is difficult to base judgements on.

[ThePythonicCow]

No one, not even Longevintex, claims it is essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood. It was just a question of how hard it was to do this. Did you need intravenous injections of laboratory pure nitrogen packed resveratrol, or are some old pills bought for lowest cost a year ago and just rediscovered on the back of your medicine cabinet shelf just fine?

[steve86]

No one, not even Longevintex, claims it is essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood. "

Even though very small amounts of free resveratrol are measured in the blood circulation and living tissues of humans following oral consumption of resveratrol

There are numerous quotes of the above sort on the Longevintex web site. When they talk about "very small amounts" they are talking about billionths of a gram. I would say the point they are making is it is "essentially impossible to get resveratrol into the blood" from oral administration. I don't know if it is true or not, in real-world conditions, but that is what they are saying.

[steve86]

Anecdotal evidence, even with the details, is difficult to base judgements on.

All curcumin supplements do or should come with the blood thinning warning. Our incident just confirmed the well-known fact. It isn't exactly the first reported incident.

[ThePythonicCow]

Ok - true. I should have said "I wasn't claiming that it is essentially impossible", not "no one is claiming ..."

Just a minor <grin> difference ...

[steve86]

China reports two more bird flu outbreaks
Updated: 8:48 p.m. ET Nov. 28, 2005

BEIJING - China has confirmed two new bird flu outbreaks in poultry in the northwestern region of Xinjiang and in central Hunan province. (excerpt)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10243739/from/RS.4/

[EBH]

Corn, Soybeans May Fall on Concern Bird Flu Will Erode Feed Use

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=a0ls1DhYJH0E&refer=latin_america

Nov. 28 (Bloomberg) -- Corn and soybean prices may fall in Chicago for a third straight week as a deadly bird virus in Asia and Europe threatens to reduce poultry production and demand for animal feed, a Bloomberg survey shows. (excerpt)

---

And so, the economic ramifications begin...

[steve86]

Interesting map posted by AlaskaDenise on this Current Events thread "New Russian Recombinant from Tula", post #2.

"Yunnan to Mongolia to Novosibirsk to Tula"

http://www.curevents.com/vb/showthread.php?t=29687