Skip to comments.LIVE THREAD!(THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW: 3PM-6PM PST) Tuesday NOVEMBER 15, 2005: Listen via web or radio!
Posted on 11/15/2005 3:07:35 PM PST by MNJohnnie
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Sure, Hugh, veto the DEFENSE bill because the senate asked for quarterly reports, and expressed the view that as Iraq can defend itself, we should back off.
If we are going to veto this bill, it should be because of the REAL disaster, the "anti-torture" amendments.
You know, in this debate over this amendment, we got a Democrat Senator, Senator Lieberman, to make a SPEECH on the floor where he said that he supported the war, that he was proud of his vote, that the attacks on the Bush administration about misleading were a bunch of crock.
He said that the Democrat's amendment hurt our troops, emboldened our enemy, and confused our allies.
Every one of us can take Lieberman's quotes and use them for the next month to repudiate the democrat's proposals for the war, and show them for the political small-minded politicians they are.
But instead, the rabid right wants to take the 50 caliber guns and aim them at our own troops, calling this a horrible capitulation.
Fight the war, not the battle.
The other thing, as listening to the top of the hour news right now. The Dems are reporting this as forcing the White House to report to them. The fact that THE WH ALL READY DOES THIS is NOT being reported.
everything you say would make sense if the MAJORITY OF AMERICA GOT THE FACTS!
Sad point is... MOST of AMERICA doesn't pay attention....they hear bits, not even the facts- just "moods" and "feelings"
THis is another step in the direction of the Lib ultimate goal...... Vietnam mentality and defeat....
It's not US you need to convince.. is the MAJORITY of AMerica... and you an't reach them....
But guess who can... NYT, CNN, WASH COMPOST, etc...
We cannot have an elected body that takes votes based on their propaganda value. That is what our enemy, the democrats, do.
We need to do what is right, or what at least looks rational, whether the left can claim a victory or not.
Let the administration fight it's battles, and do it's spin. Donald Rumsfeld addressed this today better than I ever could. I just heard the official "news" about this amendment on this station. Nothing about "resounding defeat for the administration", or about "repudiation", or "victory for the anti-war crowd".
No, just that the Senate asked the white house to provide quarterly progress reports and define a success strategy for the war. Sure, they already HAD a success strategy, but it won't hurt the administration to actually let us all know what that is.
We shouldn't pick fights for the sake of propaganda. The democrats are too good at that game -- they will present reasonable amendments, we'll force our side to reject them because of the "propaganda", and in 2006 all the public will see is a republican party that rejects common-sense ideas for partisan political purposes.
The public relations war is not TODAY. It is every day leading up to the next election.
I agree that this was a crappy thing to do while the president was out of town. But rather than get upset at it, simply point out that the democrats forced this when they knew the president wasn't around, because they were afraid to do it while he was here.
There is nothing wrong with spin. It's how you win elections in the real world.
How did the McCain amendment affect previous anti-torture statute and treaty? Torture is illegal under UCMJ, US Statutes, and international anti-torture treaty that SU signed onto in 1994. The country has a policy of not using "cruel and unusual" measures.
So what is the effect of the McCain amendment (S.AMDT.1977, IIRC), besides "present PR"?
Senator Coburn coming up soon. He is the man.
"WHERE WERE YOU?"
Here is what Captain Ed said (is he not with us anymore?):
Senate GOP Plays Smart Tactics, Not Surrender (Updated)
Several CQ readers point out this article in today's New York Times, angry at what appears to be yet another Republican surrender to the Democrats on the national stage. The GOP has introduced a measure that will require the White House to publicly lay out a victory in Iraq and some sort of plan for the phased withdrawal of troops afterwards:
In a sign of increasing unease among Congressional Republicans over the war in Iraq, the Senate is to consider on Tuesday a Republican proposal that calls for Iraqi forces to take the lead next year in securing the nation and for the Bush administration to lay out its strategy for ending the war. ...
The proposal on the Iraq war, from Senator Bill Frist, the majority leader, and Senator John W. Warner, Republican of Virginia, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, would require the administration to provide extensive new quarterly reports to Congress on subjects like progress in bringing in other countries to help stabilize Iraq. The other appeals related to Iraq are nonbinding and express the position of the Senate.
The plan stops short of a competing Democratic proposal that moves toward establishing dates for a phased withdrawal of troops from Iraq. But it is built upon the Democratic approach and makes it clear that senators of both parties are increasingly eager for Iraqis to take control of their country in coming months and open the door to removing American troops.
The Senate will debate two different bills. This measure comes in response to a Democratic proposal that would set a specific timetable for troop withdrawals, a bad idea that doesn't take into account Iraqi troop strength or on-the-ground status of the insurgency and native forces. Republicans want to stay ahead of the Democrats in war management, and this keeps the GOP in the lead.
It isn't unreasonable to have Congress call for some accounting from the White House on the status of Iraq, given the 150,000 troops currently deployed on a police mission there. It doesn't have to be a net negative for Bush to come to the Senate to present his side of the story; as the events this past week have shown, the President can use that kind of platform to correct many distortions of his record and the state of the effort in Iraq. Given the frustration many in the GOP feel with the White House in communicating all the good that our intervention has created, it sounds like a very good idea indeed, one that might be cast as a long-overdue bullhorn.
The second part of the GOP effort, however, does seem more like surrender:
The Senate is also scheduled to vote Tuesday on a compromise, announced Monday night, that would allow terror detainees some access to federal courts. The Senate had voted last week to prohibit those being held from challenging their detentions in federal court, despite a Supreme Court ruling to the contrary.
Senator Lindsey Graham, the South Carolina Republican who is the author of the initial plan, said Monday that he had negotiated a compromise that would allow detainees at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, to challenge their designation as enemy combatants in federal courts and also allow automatic appeals of any convictions handed down by the military where detainees receive prison terms of 10 years or more or a death sentence.
It depends on the manner of the capture of these detainees as to whether they should have access to federal court and how much jurisdiction those courts should be given. Those captured in open battle against American troops, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, should have none. We do not want to treat battlefield captures as arrests, and have defense attorneys issuing subpoenas to American soldiers for courtroom testimony. Terrorists captured under these circumstances should either be shot on capture -- as provided by the Geneva accords -- or handled strictly within the military.
I can see a point in making a distinction for those caught by the CIA and FBI, however. Those do not qualify as enemy combatants in the manner of the detainees described above, and really fall into the category of espionage/sabotage agents, which traditionally have had their cases heard in civilian courts. If the Lindsay Graham measure allows for strict secrecy on agents and methods, and only allows access to the appellate system for its public review and not fact-finding, then it could be an acceptable compromise.
I would hesitate in reading either as a capitulation in any circumstance. The former looks like an excellent tactical play on behalf of the White House by the Republican caucus, while the latter -- in light of the Supreme Court ruling which it hopes to replace -- may be the best retrieval possible of a bad situation.
UPDATE: CQ readers strongly disagree with me, as does Hugh Hewitt and most of the conservative blogosphere on this point. Well, I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again, but bear with me for a moment on this.
I will grant everyone that in this hyperpartisan atmosphere, any attempt to find a middle ground looks like surrender, and very well might be surrender. However, I think when readers check out the entire NYT article, John Warner's assurance that the Republican version of this bill will set no timetables for withdrawal marks an important difference. It respects the executive's prerogrative to run the war, but also preserves the people's prerogative to have the executive report on its progress on a regular basis. In this case, with the Iraqi government talking about the withdrawal of American troops next year, it doesn't sound unreasonable for the White House to consult Congress in such a manner.
Many of us have felt a huge amount of dissatisfaction with the communication from the White House on the great work our men and women in Iraq do on a daily basis. This would give an excellent forum for the Bush administration to highlight all of that as well as to continually drive home the goals for the Iraq phase of the war on terror, which they have generally only done when they could no longer avoid doing so for political reasons.
I am no great fan of the Senate GOP leadership, but when faced with an increasingly skeptical public, a more or less silent White House, and the Democratic initiative to force a timetable from Bush, this might be the best of a bad situation. At least, as I wrote above, it doesn't have to be a net negative.
I urge people to read through the excellent comments disagreeing with me from the CQ community. If nothing else, it proves that Captain's Quarters is no echo chamber. Be sure to check out Hugh's post for contact information if you want to protest the Republican action in the Senate.
Where was I when? I decided to work hard this afternoon as Rush was on vacation and the boring host was on. I got a lot accomplished.
I hear the trees.........
THey just had a toilet paper party.... Rush out, Tony out, Bush out of the country, etc.....
The sane people took a breather, and the loons toilet papered the WHOLE ASYLUM!
BTW, note what Ed Morrisey (Captain Ed) says was the REAL capitulation today. It wasn't the Warner amendment, it was the GRAHAM amendment.
I think THAT is what most of the left is really happy with. They are just projecting onto the Warner amendment.
But in any case, I don't care how excited they are today. Let's see how they feel next week when they realise that this amendment does NOTHING, that it codifies what the administration's plan is, that it puts democrats on record as AGREEING with the administration plan.
Sorry... I was just repeating the show! LOL!!
Sorry.... glad you got a lot done today...
I am continually amazed after dozens of out right lies by the Dinosaur Media supposedly "Conservatives" take the Media polls seriously! Sir, Please explain to me how increasing Democrat/Independent sample by 1/3 "improves" the polling data? Yet that is what the Dinosaur Media started doing in 2in Spring of 2005. Why did the Dinosaur Media polls switch to interviewing anyone over 18 instead of "Likely Voters" Why do they only interview 26% Republicans when the last election clearly shows we are a 50-50 nation?
Wonder why some "Conservatives" are so desperate to ignore reality and carry the Dinosaur Media's propaganda line? This is a completely stupid PR disaster. It should of NEVER been allowed on the floor. We RUN the stupid place and our stupid Senators keep bowing to the DNC's spin lies. Try as hard as you can to spin this, it does NOT change the facts. This is a gutless surrender by people who SHOULD know better to the Dem Propaganda machine.
George Allen = SELLOUT!
Buckshot breaks the windows.
Does anyone on the Republican Senate apologists side bother to THINK or is it just more of the stupid Knee Jerk "We must punish Bush" nonsense from the 100%ers????? Because this hurts Bush it must be a GOOD idea? WAKE up! This hurt OUR PR and Fund raising. NO amount of rationalization or excuse making changes that reality.
Sorry but this desperate need to ignore reality rather then ACTUALLY hold the Republican Senate to account and demand LEADERSHIP from the Senate is just nonsense. There is NO way to dress this up as a win for us. It is a surrender to the Demo spin lies about Iraq. It give stature and political credibility to the Dems attack on the Iraq policy.
Been listening as soon as Simone came on in place of the Great One. HH is pi$$ed with a passion.
Coburn on now..
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