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Cave Drawings Reportedly 25,000 Years Old
Associated Press ^ | February 5, 2006 | Anon

Posted on 02/05/2006 7:34:22 PM PST by Pharmboy

PARIS -- Cave drawings thought to be older than those in the famed caves of Lascaux have been discovered in a grotto in western France, officials from the Charente region said Sunday.

A first analysis by officials from the office of cultural affairs suggests the drawings were made some 25,000 years ago, Henri de Marcellus, mayor of the town of Vilhonneur where the cave is located, told France-Info radio.

He said, however, that the date could only be confirmed by further investigations.

Cavers exploring a part of a grotto in the Vilhonneur forest made the discovery in December, the local newspaper Charente Libre reported Saturday.

News was withheld until a first investigation could be carried out, local officials said on French radio.

"If this first expertise is confirmed, the paintings discovered here (change) scientific findings date to Lascaux and Altamira in Spain," Michel Boutant, head of the local government, said on France-Info radio.

The famed Lascaux Cave in Montignac, in the Dordogne region of southwest France, has long been considered one of the finest examples of cave paintings. The art dates back 13,000 years, like those in Altamira, in northwest Spain.

However, the Chauvet cave, discovered in the mid-1990s in southeast France, features some 300 examples of Paleolithic animal art dating back in some cases 31,000 years.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antediluvean; cave; caveart; cavedrawings; cavepainting; cavepaintings; caves; chauvet; crevo; cromagnon; epigraphyandlanguage; france; godsgravesglyphs; macroetymology; neolithic; paleosigns; spelunkers; spelunking
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This is big...
1 posted on 02/05/2006 7:34:25 PM PST by Pharmboy
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; aculeus; thefactor

Pass the ochre please, Mungo...these were my peeps on my father's side.


2 posted on 02/05/2006 7:35:52 PM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pharmboy

it is?


3 posted on 02/05/2006 7:36:01 PM PST by oceanview
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To: Pharmboy
Any cartoons of Mohammad?
4 posted on 02/05/2006 7:36:08 PM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: Last Dakotan
Any cartoons of Mohammad?

ROTFL !!!!!

5 posted on 02/05/2006 7:37:27 PM PST by jigsaw (God Bless Our Troops.)
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To: Pharmboy

??Any designs of arks in these drawings??


6 posted on 02/05/2006 7:37:31 PM PST by aShepard
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To: oceanview

Any new discoveries of Euro cave art this old is pretty big to those who care about this sort of stuff.


7 posted on 02/05/2006 7:37:48 PM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Last Dakotan

Shh...ya wanna start some more trouble? ( :-D


8 posted on 02/05/2006 7:38:46 PM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Last Dakotan

The French are experts at caving.


9 posted on 02/05/2006 7:39:08 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (Good one of the Mohammad cartoon, btw!)
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To: Pharmboy

ok, but what previously held historial issues does this discovery put in doubt?


10 posted on 02/05/2006 7:39:12 PM PST by oceanview
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To: Pharmboy

It sure is big but not a surprise. -Fred


11 posted on 02/05/2006 7:39:25 PM PST by Ma3lst0rm (Assumptions are often like jumping out of a plane with a backpack while thinking it is a parachute.)
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To: Pharmboy
The earliest known images of a people surrendering to their foes?
12 posted on 02/05/2006 7:41:43 PM PST by keat
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To: oceanview

There isn't enough information to say at this point whether it will change any ideas that are currently held, but it might. At any rate, since these things are so rare, itis a very important find.


13 posted on 02/05/2006 7:42:13 PM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: Pharmboy

"were made some 25,000 years ago, Henri de Marcellus, mayor of the town of Vilhonneur where the cave is located, told France-Info radio."

The mayor? Give me a freaking break. I smell tourists dollars.


14 posted on 02/05/2006 7:43:42 PM PST by toddlintown (Lennon takes six bullets to the chest, Yoko is standing right next to him and not one f'ing bullet?)
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To: Pharmboy


..one of the drawings was purported to be Mohammed, Islamists worldwide are pissed...


15 posted on 02/05/2006 7:44:22 PM PST by Tzimisce (How Would Mohammed Vote? Hilary for President!)
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To: Pharmboy
This stuff was discovered some time ago. THere's even a book about it.

Art hit the ground running. There appear to be no amateur, tenative, halting steps ~ there was no art, and then there was.

This is a result of some sort of genetic change that occurred in Europe first.

16 posted on 02/05/2006 7:45:17 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Pharmboy
This stuff was discovered some time ago. THere's even a book about it.

Art hit the ground running. There appear to be no amateur, tenative, halting steps ~ there was no art, and then there was.

This is a result of some sort of genetic change that occurred in Europe first.

17 posted on 02/05/2006 7:45:18 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Pharmboy

Well at least it's reassuring to parents today that 25,000 years ago parents had problems with kids drawing on the walls. A little 409 will get those caves clean in no time.


18 posted on 02/05/2006 7:45:28 PM PST by RouxStir (Peaceful muslim...The Ultimate Oxymoron!)
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To: Pharmboy

Is it an image of Mohhamed? If so, there will be he!! to pay.


19 posted on 02/05/2006 7:46:49 PM PST by NCC-1701 (RADICAL ISLAM IS A CULT. IT MUST BE ELIMINATED.)
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To: oceanview
30,000-10,000 BC (US) B.C: Palo Indians cross from Asia to America over an ice sheet that will eventually melt away.

10,000 BC Many stone age cultures developed. The Chinese civilization emerged from two of these cultures, Yangshao and Longshan. By the end of the Palaeolithic 10,000 years ago, there was a shift in the environment and the plants growing wild and a shift in the social pattern of relationships. In the "fertile crescent" around the rivers Tigris and the Euphrates, there is evidence of settlements and grain storage, but only of wild grain. This wild grain flourished and peoples ceased migrating because they and the animals they hunted lived on the abundant grain food. The first sign of the domestication of animals (dogs) was found at these sites.

20 posted on 02/05/2006 7:48:10 PM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: Pharmboy

Pictures?


21 posted on 02/05/2006 7:48:18 PM PST by dr_who_2
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To: Charles Henrickson

Good one.


22 posted on 02/05/2006 7:49:01 PM PST by dr_who_2
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To: muawiyah
Art hit the ground running. There appear to be no amateur, tenative, halting steps ~ there was no art, and then there was.

This is a result of some sort of genetic change that occurred in Europe first.

Can you think of no other possibilities? None at all?

(I can.)

23 posted on 02/05/2006 7:50:14 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Pharmboy

5 bucks says it's in German.


24 posted on 02/05/2006 7:52:52 PM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: Liz; Joe 6-pack; woofie; vannrox; giotto; iceskater; Conspiracy Guy; Dolphy; Intolerant in NJ; ...

Art ping.

Let Republicanprofessor or me know if you want on or off the art ping list.

I wish there were some pics of this stuff to post.


25 posted on 02/05/2006 7:53:13 PM PST by Sam Cree (absolute reality) - ("Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one." Albert Einstein)
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To: Coyoteman
Sure, we simply haven't found earlier evidence.

Or, alternatively, guys from outerspace did the drawings, or..... there are many, many possibilities. At the moment, though, we have only this cave.

26 posted on 02/05/2006 7:55:23 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Pharmboy
Any new discoveries of Euro cave art this old is pretty big to those who care about this sort of stuff.

Agreed. It's amazing they haven't been discovered until recently.

27 posted on 02/05/2006 7:58:22 PM PST by aculeus
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To: Pharmboy
25,000 years....but....but...that's impossible!! The Earth is only 6,000 years old!!

/Sarc
28 posted on 02/05/2006 8:01:40 PM PST by LanaTurnerOverdrive
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To: All
Cave paintings released......

Couldn't control myself...

29 posted on 02/05/2006 8:02:36 PM PST by Robe (Rome did not create a great empire by talking, they did it by killing all those who opposed them)
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To: muawiyah
"Art hit the ground running. There appear to be no amateur, tenative, halting steps ~ there was no art, and then there was."

I don't believe that. We just haven't found or the 100,000 year old art hasn't survived.

30 posted on 02/05/2006 8:02:52 PM PST by blam
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To: LanaTurnerOverdrive

Well, it was shipped in (LOL).


31 posted on 02/05/2006 8:05:53 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Sam Cree
I wish there were some pics of this stuff to post.

Wait for National Geographic...

32 posted on 02/05/2006 8:06:35 PM PST by TXnMA (TROP: Satan's most successful earthly venture...)
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To: blam

Even today artistic talent is much more a question of having the right gene set than anything else. It is exceedingly rare to find a good artist in a family that does not already have a good artist.


33 posted on 02/05/2006 8:07:58 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Pharmboy
Pass the ochre please, Mungo...these were my peeps on my father's side.
:') More where this comes from. ;')
34 posted on 02/05/2006 8:10:07 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: muawiyah
Thanks for the response.

Sure, we simply haven't found earlier evidence.

Or, alternatively, guys from outerspace did the drawings, or..... there are many, many possibilities. At the moment, though, we have only this cave.

I objected to the comment re:

Art hit the ground running. There appear to be no amateur, tenative, halting steps ~ there was no art, and then there was.

This is a result of some sort of genetic change that occurred in Europe first.

Given the scarcity of the ancient rock art, I think its a little early (no pun intended) to make any firm statements on the course of its development.

What would you posit for a genetic change? We have modern humans some 160k or more years ago. I know there were two groups in this part of Europe at some 30k. What are you thinking for the genetic change.

I may have to answer in the AM.

Coyote

35 posted on 02/05/2006 8:11:13 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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Britain And France In Dispute Over Cave Art
The Telegraph (UK) | 10-16-2003 | Philip Delves
Posted on 10/16/2003 10:47:34 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1002398/posts

Stone Age Code Red: Scarlet Symbols Emerge In Israeli Cave
Science News | 11-8-2003 | Bruce Bower
Posted on 11/08/2003 9:33:41 AM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1017552/posts

False Bay Cave Shows Signs Of Prehistoric Man
Cape Argus | 11-22-2004 | Daniel Ashby
Posted on 11/22/2004 12:08:43 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1286101/posts


36 posted on 02/05/2006 8:14:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: Coyoteman
There's even a change in the way spearpoints are manufactured circa 35,000 BC.

It has to do with the linkage between the motor centers and the visual cortex. I suspect "dance" has a comparable gene set, although different. Notice that top level dancers in every society appear to have a sense of position similar to that of top level basketball players. Not all of us have that ~ actually, almost none of us do.

Then there are the musicians ~

37 posted on 02/05/2006 8:18:47 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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To: Pharmboy

I didn't check to see if there is also a FR topic about this:

Were Modern Humans Neighbors to Neanderthals?
Dating of Modern-Style Artifacts in Famed Neanderthal Cave in France Refuels Debate About Possible Coexistence
By Guy Gugliotta
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, September 12, 2005; Page A07
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/11/AR2005091100851.html


38 posted on 02/05/2006 8:20:05 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: Pharmboy
A first analysis by officials from the office of cultural affairs suggests the drawings were made some 25,000 years ago

Shoot, the magazines in my Doctor's office are older than that.

39 posted on 02/05/2006 8:23:50 PM PST by feedback doctor (Socialism, the opiate of liberals)
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To: muawiyah
"It is exceedingly rare to find a good artist in a family that does not already have a good artist. "

The human family has lots of artists.

Preservation Of Rock Imagery (Australia)

" 'Rock varnish' in petroglyphs in South Australia has been dated to greater than thirty thousand years ago (Nobbs and Dorn 1988). Red and yellow ochres, perhaps used in rock painting, have been recovered from contexts dated to 60,000 ago (Roberts et al. 1990)."

The 'Hobbits' on Flores Island were found with a well-worn shell necklace dated at 80,000 years old.

40 posted on 02/05/2006 8:24:25 PM PST by blam
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To: Pharmboy

Agreed, big. Now where is the Mothership buried? This is not a coincidence.


41 posted on 02/05/2006 8:28:48 PM PST by Imperialist
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To: Last Dakotan

"Any cartoons of Mohammad?"

That is rich!


42 posted on 02/05/2006 8:29:39 PM PST by Nasty McPhilthy (Those who beat their swords into plow shears….will plow for those who don’t.)
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To: Pharmboy

Here's the picture taken off it back then.

http://fedex.com/us/about/unitedstates/advertising/tvads/stickwm.html?link=4


43 posted on 02/05/2006 8:29:59 PM PST by jwh_Denver (Liberals is where insanity and lies get together and party.)
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To: blam
Again, the Hobbits were found still hopping about in relatively "recent" times, eh., and a shell necklace does not a masterpiece make.

I also said "good artists". As we all know, most people have some degree of artistic talent, but not enough to be considered "good".

Good artists run in families.

44 posted on 02/05/2006 8:30:03 PM PST by muawiyah (-)
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The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve
Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

45 posted on 02/05/2006 8:30:12 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: Pharmboy

If they drew Mohammed, the caves are going to be destroyed.


46 posted on 02/05/2006 8:31:15 PM PST by doug from upland (INDICTING HILLARY -- now that is something that's good for America)
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To: oceanview

It says how long intelligent humans have dwelled here..... Some say the Sphynx is 3000 yrs. old, others say 20,000 yrs. old. Anyway, it can say a lot of things.

We really have no idea, yet our scientist speak with such confidence about all sorts of things, like the Big Bang, yet we know so little about ourselves....


47 posted on 02/05/2006 8:33:47 PM PST by Imperialist
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To: Imperialist
"Some say the Sphynx is 3000 yrs. old, others say 20,000 yrs. "

Nah.

Redating The Great Sphinx Of Giza

48 posted on 02/05/2006 8:42:45 PM PST by blam
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To: muawiyah
"Again, the Hobbits were found still hopping about in relatively "recent" times, eh., and a shell necklace does not a masterpiece make."

They were still here 12-13,000 years ago (some suspect they're still here)...they have been identified as Homo-Erectus...that also means they survived the worldwide devastating Toba eruption 74,000 years ago in that area.

49 posted on 02/05/2006 8:47:41 PM PST by blam
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To: dr_who_2
Found in cave:

FOR GOOD TIME
CALL TROG
555-2525

50 posted on 02/05/2006 8:52:56 PM PST by Charles Henrickson (Graffitilithic Age.)
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