Posted on 01/13/2013 9:28:12 PM PST by madison10
I cannot believe I never caught this before as I've been reading the Bible most of my life and have been listening to evangelists, preachers, etc for almost as long. (50+ years)
I started reading in the Song of Solomon last night, but ended up in the Book of Revelation. Here's the quote from Revelation, Chapter 14:
9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”
See verse 12? This statement is made more than once in Revelation. So I was rather unnerved and went to the Scripture that spoke of the Last Trumpet--I Corinthians 15 (NASB) Also in Revelation 13:10. If the saints are already "raptured" then why is their patient endurance required? Answer: They are not "raptured," they are still on the earth dealing with the antichrist.
The Mystery of Resurrection
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Then I flip back to Revelation and count to the Last Trumpet--The Seventh Trumpet (or when the Seventh Angel Blows the Trumpet)--Revelation 11.
The Seventh Trumpet—Christ’s Reign Foreseen
15Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying, "We give You thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who are and who were, because You have taken Your great power and have begun to reign. 18“And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
What is weird is that I never tied the scriptures together before. Am I missing something? I see no where that is says we are to be rescued prior to the antichrist taking over.
Maybe someone else sees it, but IMHO there is no Rapture prior to the Tribulation, the Rapture IS the Coming of the Lord.
I agree with you sasportas. The Bible supports us being Raptured upon Christ’s return and there is no lingering 7 years where people have another chance. The Bible is clear that the elements melt away upon His return; that doesn’t sound like anyone lives here anymore.
OK, spacejunkie. Where’s the supporting Scripture?
There’s considerably more scripture that supports Christ only coming back once, not a first secret time, than there is a pretrib visit that no one knows about.
Saints are people OR angels GN. So when Christ comes with Saints it’s angels. When we meet him in the clouds, we return with him. The word used is the same one they used to go out and meet an official and come back with him.
There is no supporting scripture that Christ makes a secret visit 7 years before the REAL visit. We all may have different views on this but your personal attacks about those of us that only believe the real scripture and don’t read between the lines, is over the top.
So there's all this Scripture yet you can't ever produce any of it. Does that appear to be the least bit odd to you?
Did God lie to the world when He said the following?
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive ]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
spacejunkie, did God lie or did He tell the truth in that Scripture?
Did God lie to the world when He wrote this:
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. (Revelation 19:11-19)
Did God tell the truth or was He lying when He wrote that Scripture?
Now can you explain to me how a meeting in the air where Jesus never comes to earth is the same as Jesus Christ physically coming to earth? Is there some secret law of physics that only you and other post-Trib mythology disciples know? How, exactly, is a meeting in the air the same as a literal, physical coming of Christ to earth? Can you give me the verse in Revelation 19-20 that tells us that anyone will be raptured at the time Jesus returns to earth?
Saints are people OR angels GN.
But my Bible says that the saints are born-again believers in Christ.
"Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem" (Acts 9:13). "Now as Peter was traveling through all those regions, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda" (Acts 9:32). "And this is just what I did in Jerusalem; not only did I lock up many of the saints in prisons …“ (Acts 26:10). (Philippians 4:21). “…every saint…” (Philippians 4:21).
There are three references referring to godly character of saints: "that you receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints …" (Romans 16:2). "For the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:12). "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints" (Ephesians 5:3).
Therefore, Scripturally speaking, the “saints” are the body of Christ, Christians, the church. All Christians are considered saints. All Christian are saints—and at the same time are called to be saints. First Corinthians 1:2 states it clearly: “To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy…”. The words “sanctified” and “holy” come from the same Greek root as the word that is commonly translated “saints.” Christians are saints by virtue of their connection with Jesus Christ. Christians are called to be saints, to increasingly allow their daily life to more closely match their position in Christ. This is the biblical description and calling of the saints.
In Revelation, the word "saints" as used to describe the Church who will return to earth with Jesus Christ at His second coming to earth is explained by God:
Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready.” 8 It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:7,8)
So we see that there has been a marriage in Heaven, and Jesus returns to earth with His bride and we know from the Scripture above that the fine linen worn by the bride is the "righteous acts of the saints". Can you produce the Scripture where God says that angels are the "bride" of Christ and will be married to Him?
When we meet him in the clouds, we return with him
But according to God, the bride has already been married to her Groom in Heaven.
According to Revelation 19:7, the bride (which is made up of the corporate and collected members throughout the church age taken to heaven at the rapture), makes herself ready for an impending event. How is the bride or the church made ready? She is made ready by clothing "herself in the fine linen bright and clean," which is said to be "the righteous acts of the saints." This statement means that by this point in history (right before the second coming), the sum total of the bride, the body of Christ, is in heaven and has already gone through the bema judgment where church age believers are to be evaluated for their faithfulness to Christ during this present age (Rom. 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:10). The result of going through the judgment seat of Christ results in the bride being given fine linen that Revelation 19:8 says, "is the righteous acts of the saints." This is how "His bride has made herself ready." Ready for what? She has made herself ready for the marriage of the Lamb. Arnold Fruchtenbaum further explains as follows:
The wedding announcement will be made (v. 6) and the Bride will finally be made ready (v. 7). The reason the Bride will now be fully ready for the marriage ceremony is because she will have her entire bridal gown on (v. 8). . . . this also show that the marriage ceremony takes place after the Judgment Seat of the Messiah, when the saints are rewarded for their deeds on earth (1 Cor. 3:10- 15). . . . This corresponds to the ritual cleansing of the Jewish wedding system. The ones present at the marriage ceremony are the " few," that is, only those in Heaven at that time.[1]
Later, Revelation 19:14 says, "And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses." Thus, having been newly married to the Lamb, the bride begins her role in history of reigning at the right hand of Christ (Rev. 3:21) by accompanying her new husband in the heavenly accent from heaven on white horses in order to participate in the judgment of Armageddon at the second advent.
The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
According to Jesus Christ, His bride will already be married to Him and will come with Him from Heaven back to earth.
Where is the Scripture where Jesus says that His bride will go up to meet Him in the air at His second coming?
There is no supporting scripture that Christ makes a secret visit 7 years before the REAL visit. We all may have different views on this but your personal attacks about those of us that only believe the real scripture and don’t read between the lines, is over the top.
Personal attacks? Where? When? And what "real" Scripture? Would that be the "real" Scripture you've posted in invisible ink because nobody has ever seen it? And the "personal attacks" are because I have more than accurately called post-Trib mythology a doctrine of demons? Where is any Scripture you or any other post-Trib mythology disciple has provided to prove your case? Not once has any of you ever posted one verse of what God said that validates your belief. Post-Tribulation Rapture mythology has absolutely no support in Scripture anywhere, it directly contradicts what God has made clear is going to happen, and therefore it is a doctrine of demons.
Now if you choose to continue to believe something that you know to be contrary to, and a denial of, the Bible, that's your funeral. But don't try to claim that your false, demonic doctrine is of God. Don't insult everyone's intelligence and don't dig a deeper hole for yourself than you already have.
Good luck shoving down the throats of people here your interpretation of scripture, as everything you posted is about the one LOUD, VISIBLE return of Christ.
And quit calling people demonic that don’t buy into your twisted version. I’ve posted several scriptures to you over the months, and several on this thread. Why don’t you answer Revelation 9 that I posted earlier today? God is marking the forheads during the tribulation of those that belong to Him. Why do that if we’re with HIM?????
spacejunkie, where's that explanation from you on how a "catching up"; a meeting in the air as told to us by God in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, where Jesus does not come to earth but takes His bride and goes back to Heaven (In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going. John 14:2-4) is the same thing as the literal, physical return of Christ to earth after the seven year Tribulation? How are those two events the same thing, spacejunkie? How is never coming to earth the same thing as coming to earth?
God is marking the forheads during the tribulation of those that belong to Him. Why do that if we’re with HIM?????
After all believers in Christ are raptured away to heaven, the people left behind who come to faith in Jesus Christ as Lord after the rapture will to be known as Tribulation Saints. The Bible predicts that a huge number of people will be saved during the seven year Tribulation. Rev 7:9 describes the number as a "great multitude, which no man could number."
The Bible repeatedly states that Tribulation Saints will face a strong likelihood of being martyred under the Antichrist's demonic rule. Many Tribulation Saints will have to pay the ultimate price and give their lives for their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. These are not people who received Christ during the Age of Grace; they have missed the Rapture because they did not know Christ at that time but become saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation.
To find who the people are during the Tribulation who receive a seal of God on their heads, we go to Revelation 7.
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Who are these people? Chapter 7 beginning at verse 4 tells us who they are:
And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
So, as we see, the people who have the seal of God on their heads are the 144,000 Jewish evangelists who will spread the gospel around the world in the absence of the church. They are not the bride of Christ who will be in Heaven during the Tribulation, and they certainly are not the Tribulation saints:
It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. (Revelation 13:7)
This verse alone is proof that the Church will not be on earth during the Tribulation because Jesus said:
upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)
So here is what we know. The people with the seals on their heads in Revelation 9, whom the Antichrist will not be allowed to touch, are the 144,000 saved Jewish evangelists who will be given the job of the raptured church in spreading the gospel and the Antichrist will be given the power to overcome the "saints" who can't be the church because Jesus said that hell will never prevail against the church so the "saints" spoken of in Revelation 13:7 are the people who are saved after the rapture, during the Tribulation.
Good luck shoving down the throats of people here your interpretation of scripture,
I'm not shoving anything down anyone's throat. As we see from false doctrines like post-Trib rapture mythology, people are free to accept the Scriptures as God wrote them or to deny the Scriptures as God wrote them.
Good luck finding anything God wrote that supports your false doctrine.
I haven’t checked this thread for some time now, thought it was dead, lo, and behold, GN is back again. At it again I see, throwing out a slew of his inferences.
I asked for a plain statement from the NT setting forth this additional coming of Christ. By additional, I mean additional to the one we see in the wheat and tares parable, additional to the one we see in the Olivet Discourse.
It is you that has the burden of proof. Most pretribs claim the reason Jesus didn’t mention a pretrib rapture, an additional 2nd coming, in the Olivet Discoruse, was because it would be left to Paul to reveal it. Hence, we should expect a clear statement to that effect.
Something on the order of Paul saing, “Behold, I shew you a mystery, ye all know Jesus only mentioned one 2nd comging in his parable of the wheat and the tares, only one 2nd coming at the end of the tribulation in his mount Olives discourse, but, behold, I now reveal to you an additional coming. There is actually two separate 2nd comings, you see. The first one is not visible to the world, no one sees it or hears it but believers caught up to heaven, this occurs before the great tribulation. Jesus did not tell you of this, but, behold, I now reveal it. As to the one Jesus mentioned, it contrast to the prior coming, this one is an open revelation, a coming in judgment, a very public one, which every eye shall see.”
It is you that has the burden of proof, GN. Not me. All these inferences you claim, I simply the same singular 2nd coming Jesus set forth...howbeit with much more detail supplied. You have produced nothing but inferences, my friend. I’m looking for a clear statement similar to the one above, where this additional 2nd coming is revealed. It surely should be, for something as vital as this. Where is it? The burden is on your shoulders to produce it.
correction, I left out a few words:
All these inferences you claim, I simply see as the same singular 2nd coming Jesus set forth...howbeit with much more detail supplied.
The posts the I have made on this thread have, beyond any argument or doubt, proven that the rapture will happen before the Tribulation.
As you, and I and anyone who has read this thread knows, you have not posted one verse of Scripture to validate your beliefs because you can't. You cling to a demonic doctrine, and you discard plain, clear Scriptures that destroy your beliefs because you love a lie and fable over the Holy Spirit and the Word of God.
You really have nothing more to say. You can spew your opinions and denials and lamely continue to try to divert attention away from your spiritual blindness and rejection of Jesus Christ, but you are exposed, and you are finished.
How does it feel to have absolutely nothing that Jesus Christ said that you can provide to support what you believe? How does that feel? How does it feel to be proven over and over to be someone who simply refuses to accept the Scriptures as God wrote them because the Scriptures as God wrote them blow your false doctrine into a million pieces?
The fact remains that you have given no Scripture that even hints that the rapture will occur after the Tribulation and therefore your "religion" is man-made, is in direct contradiction to the Word of God, demonic, and something you love enough to reject Jesus Christ for.
You are exposed, and you are finished.
All you are is a debater, GN, you care not a whit for the real truth about this issue. As a debater you must never admit to any possibility that you could be wrong, you must defend your position at all costs. Such tactics won’t work on such a thread as this, FReepers are not dumb.
Most really want to know what is ahead of them, are they going to have to face the antichrist or not? No small issue. It affects virtually every part of their lives, and their children and loved ones. They care not a whit about your kind of bluster, blather, and intimidation – standard fare for debaters – I’m sure they must see right through that kind of stuff, they really want to know the truth about this.
Now, your objections to the contrary, I have answered your points. No, not in the way you want me to. I guess you expect me to get in there and wrangle with you every point you make in your long posts. I could, but I see no need to do that, I just put ‘em in one bundle and dispense with the lot of them.
As one writer put it, “In disputed questions of interpretation, the simpler view is to be preferred; the burden of proof rest upon the more elaborate explanation. Pretribulationism is the more elaborate view in that without explicit scriptural statements it divides the second coming and the resurrection of the saints into two phases. There is no need that that all the details of the rapture have to be restated in every mention of the event.”
As a debater, you won’t accept this, of course, but these distinctions of yours between the two “phases of the 2nd coming” (your words), all they are are simply descriptions of the same event. Every detail doesn’t have to be restated every time the rapture is mentioned.
You want a scripture from me, I close with this one, Titus 2:13
“Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.”
It is the end of the tribulation when he comes “in power and great glory,” Matt. 24:30. An open public display of his power and glory. This alleged secret coming and rapture of yours can hardly be what is described in Titus 2:13. The post-trib glorious appearing is my hope…and yours, our only hope.
Is the following true or false:
upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)
Jesus said that, sasportas. Is it true or false? Now if there's no response like there hasn't been the last two times I asked you that, I'll take that as a no, it's not true because if you believe that those words of Jesus are true, you'll respond immediately.
It's a simple, yes or no question, although it does require the you to have the courage to either be honest to your false doctrine and not respond or not be honest to your false doctrine and admit that what Jesus said there is true.
Is what Jesus Christ said in Matthew 16:18, which is posted for you above, true or is it false?
Rev 3:8 "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it..."
Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock..."
The church that has a little strength has before it an open door....the church that thinks it has everything has before it a shut door and will have to "buy of me gold tried in the fire".That door here that no man has shut,is,I believe,the rapture.
And Revelation 3:8 that talks about the open door comes right before Revelation 3:10 where Jesus makes the promise to the church that has not denied Him and has persevered that He will take them off the scene before He sends judgment.
LOL!!!!
Psalm 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Rev 4:6 "And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal" A "sea of glass like unto crystal"?...a great multitude of people crystal clear?..unable to conceal any imperfection? certainly makes you go hhhmmmmm.
Upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. (Matthew 16:18)
Nothing to avoid here, though from the way you brandish it about, you intend to use it as loaded question. Having been a former pretribber myself, I think I know where you are coming from. It goes something like this, the church will be overpowered totally by the antichrist in the tribulation, therefore, since Jesus said his church will not be overpowered, it must be raptured out before the tribulation. That’s the theory behind it anyway.
What this is is just another inference. Where one might infer a pretrib rapture. Pretribs think an inference is all they need. Not so, you first need a clear setting forth somewhere in scripture of a two stage second coming, THEN an inference such as this would have validity. But you are lacking that clear setting forth of a two stage second coming, therefore all you have is just another inference.
Take a look at this scripture, “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake,” Phil. 1:29. and this one, 2 Tim. 2:12, “If we suffer, we shall also reign with him.” There is no crown without a cross, GN.
Because many will suffer in the tribulation does not mean they have been overpowered. Was Jesus overpowered in his crucifixion? Was Paul overpowered in his martyrdom? What Jesus meant by being overcome must not be what you think it means.
Moreover, despite the martyrdom in the tribulation, not everybody in the church will be martyred. Didn’t Paul say, “we which are alive and remain?” (shall be caught up with those who had been martyred, the dead in Christ, in the rapture, 1 Thess. 4)
One thing you and I can be sure of, his church will not be defeated in the tribulation, but will be victorious in it. Jesus said so.
Really? Jesus said that? Why didn't you post the exact Scripture where He said that? Where is the Scripture where Jesus Christ said that His church will not be defeated in the Tribulation?
You do have the exact Scripture, right sasportas?
We cling to His promises and we know He doesn't lie.
You are right; it is ALL about inference. Just like the scripture I posted from Rev. 9, about God marking the forheads of those that believe to set them apart, and GN claims that that’s only for NEW believers that come about during the tribulation.
She consistently insists others post scriptures to back up our positions (which we do over and over again), then insults us and calls us demonic by holding a post trib belief, but wants us to embrace nothing but gray ambiguity dealt us from her wish list of escaping the tough times. I believe she undermines the strength of Christ and the believers by automatically assuming that Satan will prevail if we’re here. It’s just not so.
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