Skip to comments.Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
Posted on 02/17/2013 8:14:19 PM PST by Colofornian
Inactive 7-8M Active 4-5M
Salt Lake Tribune, Merrill Bateman
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed..."--Brigham Young JOD v. 7 p. 290
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."--Brigham Young JOD vol. 10, p. 109
...the Book of Mormon
* Has had over 4,000 changes. Many minor, some major.
* Geography? "Narrow neck?" Which Cumorah? Where is Cumorah?...
* Where are the steel swords? Armor? Bones?
* Horses? Elephants? Steel? Barley? Wheat? 7-day calendar?
* DNA? 95%+ Asiatic
* ...Book of Abraham--Experts agree (Nibley included)--is not a translation of the papyrus
"Once this happens to you...
* You can never look at Joseph Smith the same way again
* You never look at scripture the same way again
* You never look at the church the same way again
* You never think of 'authority' the same way again
* Your concept of God and Jesus and the 'one true church' can change dramatically
(Excerpt) Read more at slideshare.net ...
You can find these here:
* Mormon Reformation [Posting of 95 Theses on Mormon Church Doors]
* How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]
* 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]
* Sunstone 2012 Recap [Focus on internal Lds critic Dehlin's presentation on why some Mormons stay]
Let's turn a "corner" for this new week with this thread and look at reasons outspoken Mormon critic John Dehlin -- and others -- provide for Lds to exodus out of the Mormon faith.
What a great informational thread. Thanks
what family/friends/community can do about it
***How about... leaving the mormon cult and encouraging them not to throw the baby out with the bathwater when they leave it.
And if you are Lds, perhaps you, too, can re-examine your faith thru the same eyes as to why others are leaving:
Last week, on this linked podcast --
--400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church --
--Lds reformational-minded critic John Dehlin says after going thru a multiplicity of historical issues that disaffected and disassociated Mormons have with the Lds church...
...that with these issues it's "not" usually "any one" [specific] historical issue; rather, it's the "accumulation combined with lack of church addressing these issues."
In this same podcast, Dehlin cites one disaffected Mormon (survey "Respondent 1865") as saying:
"FAIR [the Lds apologetics site] ...answers have done more to destroy...testimonies than any 'anti-Mormon' sources could. For many members, the fact that the LDS Church is officially silent on many of these problems is a testament in itself that the church does not have any answers and are hiding behind unofficial apologists like FAIR for plausible deniability."
|Top 7 Issues Leading to Mormon Exodus||% of Sampled Disaffected Lds Pinpointing Specific Issues (Per Sample of 3,000+ LDS, what % rated as a 'major problem')||Q: What is Dehlin's take on these issues?|
|1. Fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine||74%||"Forget 'true.' Consider 'good.' -- What will bring you the most joy?" Source: Slide 36, http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/why-people-leave-the-lds-mormon-church-and-how-we-can-help-1232579|
|2. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief||70%...and per p. 11 of Mormon sample taken by Dehlin, the third-fastest rising issue as affecting disbelief||* 5th generation LDS * Mormon world view * Very conservative theological and doctrinal LDS education * Served mission * Married in temple * "Morally clean" * Aspired to high level church positions * Called as early morning seminary teacher [slide 7 from Oct 2007 presentation found at: http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/how-to-stay-in-the-lds-church-after-losing-your-faith]...Then in slide 8, he said: "In spite of 32 years of church education, didn't ever learn about...* "Peepstone in hat" treasure digging and translation of Book of Mormon * Credibility issues w/ the 3 and 8 witnesses * Multiple lst vision stories, and the changing narrative of founding stories * Book of Mormon historicity issues * Book of Abraham papyrus issues * Joseph Smith having 30+ wives, 8+ of them married to other men at the time they were sealed to Joseph * Post-Manifesto polygamy, and polygamy as a requirement for exaltation * The depth of the Temple Masonry connections * The basics of Mountain Meadows (though lots about Haun's mill)...* The extreme racist statements and opposition in civil rights by top church leaders In slide 9: Dehlin "felt * Deceived * Disappointed * Angry * Like it was all a fraud * Like I had a moral obligation to resign" "I quickly discovered that I was not not alone...not by a long shot"|
|3. Losing faith/testimony in Joseph Smith||70%||"Once this happens to you...* You can never look at Joseph Smith the same way again * You never look at scripture the same way again * You never look at the church the same way again * You never think of 'authority' the same way again * Your concept of God and Jesus and the 'one true church' can change dramatically." 2008 presentation, slide 31|
|4. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account||65%||Per the 2012 Sunstone conference, he "doesn't believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history, but believes it is inspired" Per his Oct 2007 powerpoint: "Decades of serious and honest scholarship have failed to uncover credible evidence that these Book of Mormon civilizations ever existed" (slide 11); In his 2008 powerpoint (slide 24): "What the history/facts seem to tell us...the Book of Mormon * Has had over 4,000 changes. Many minor, some major. * Geography? "Narrow neck?" Which Cumorah? Where is Cumorah? No one knows. * Where are the steel swords? Armor? Bones? * Horses? Elephants? Steel? Barley? Wheat? 7-day calendar? * DNA? 95%+ Asiatic * Who are the Lamanites? * View of the Hebrews. Book of Abraham--Experts agree (Nibley included)--is not a translation of the papyrus|
|5. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities||50%||Dehlin has actually had conversational access to Lds general authorities. Per the 2012 Wheat & Tares article based upon a Dehlin Sunstone presentation: "John asked point blank if the person [a member of the Quorum of the 12] "wanted liberal Mormons inside the church, and the apostle emphatically said yes..."|
|6. Lds stances re: women||47%||For more on this, see Feb. 10, 2013 Podcast: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church|
|7. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978||43%||2008, slide 13 includes these Brigham Young quotes from the Journal of Discourses: "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree."--Brigham Young JOD v. 7 p. 290 "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young JOD vol. 10, p. 109|
* Source for column 2: Page 8 of UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do?
* 2012 Sunstone Conference (see Sunstone 2012 Recap
* 2009 = How to Stay in the Lds Church After a Major Trial of Faith (Oct. 12, 2009)
* 2008 = Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
“What you can do about it?”
kidnap them at gunpoint and chain them up until they swear allegiance to the golden calf... plates?
I came up with links for a LOT of these theses for more in-depth study:
|Thesis #||Links||MRM.tv; John Ankerberg links; Mormonisminvestigated (UK) youtube linkage, etc.|
|1. Smith's peepstone usage in Book of Mormon 'translation'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #15 from this article) + Translation of the Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon translation + A Seer Stone and a Hat - "Translating" the Book of Mormon||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #3)|
|2. The Missing Mormon archaeology of Book of Mormon civilizations||The Scientific Search for Nephite Remains (Mormon Archaeology )|
|3. Book of Mormon history -- anachonisms||Anachronisms||Where did the Book of Mormon come from? + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #4 & #5))#|
|4. DNA as relating to undergirding Book of Mormon history||Lamanite DNA (scroll down) + DNA Science Challenges LDS History||DNA vs. the Book of Mormon|
|5. Note how Book of Mormon names matches up, with slight revisions, with local names where Joseph Smith resided||In Search of Book of Mormon Geography + Book of Mormon Geography: Which Theory do you Believe?|
|6. Early Mormon theology and latter-day fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine||Resources on Lds theology + "This Is My Doctrine": The Development of Mormon Theology + The Evolution of Mormon Theology + Joseph Smiths Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?|
|7 to 11. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account||The Book of Mormon + Book of Mormon Difficulties||John Ankerberg Show "Book of Mormon is not qualified" + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|10. First Nephi has LOTS of issues||The Book of Mormon and the King James Version (KJV Translation errors show up in the Book of Mormon)|
|12 to 14. Book of Abraham really an Egyptian funeral document?||The Book of Abraham + The Book of Abraham + Book of Abraham + Death Blow to Mormonism The Book of Abraham is a Fake? + The Book of Abraham + Min is Not God!||The Lost Book of Abraham + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|15. Fake Kinderhook Plates which fooled Joseph Smith||The Kinderhook Plates||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #7)|
|17. Joseph Smith marries 14-year-old...and dozens of wives||Joseph Smith's 14 year old bride Helen Mar Kimball 100|
|18. Polyandry: Joseph Smith married the wives of 11 fellow Mormons||Joseph Smith Married Other Men's Wives: Would you share your spouse with the Prophet?|
|18 thru 25. Polygamy--including post-manifesto polygamy/Polyandry -- "polyandry" including Joseph Smith being married to 11 women already married -- who remained married||Polygamy [Everything you might want to possibly know about historical Mormon polygamy] + LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will be Polygamy in Heaven||The 34 wives of Joseph Smith (and their 11 husbands) + Lifting the Veil of Polygamy + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #8)|
|20. Joseph Smith secret 'marriage' to teen Fanny Alger minus authority to do so||Alger History and Ancestry: Fanny W. Alger 1817-1879 + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (See #17, 18 from this article)|
|21. LDS Leaders' Lies to Cover-Up Historical Polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 thru #59, #64, #71, #72, #76 thru #113, #132 from this article) + LDS Leaders, Their Ethics and Lying for the Lord|
|22. Joseph Smith lied to his original wife||See # 22, 24, 29, 30, 39, 40 etc. from this list: Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read]|
|23. Polygamy: How it went from 'everlasting' to 'embarrassing'||Great Moments in Mormon History|
|24. Post-manifesto Mormon polygamy||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #56 through #59, #76 thru #113, and #125 from this article) + see Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE -- see appendix list of about 260 plural marriages solemnized between 1890-1910|
|25. Lds 'scriptures' inconsistent with each other||The Book of Mormon vs Mormonism|
|28. Joseph Smith, post 'first vision,' tries to join Methodist church||Joseph Smith Tries to Join the Methodists|
|29. Multiple/conflicting versions of Joseph Smith's 'First Visions'||Joseph Smith's First Vision: Examining the evidence related to Joseph Smiths claim to have seen the Father and the Son + The First Vision + First Vision plagiarized||Heart of the Matter: First Vision II|
|30. Why lengthy lag time of announcing 'First Vision'? (Authenticity or credibility of 'priesthood restoration'/Is Lds church 'One True Church?')||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #1 from this article) + Priesthood Restoration + The Great Apostasy + Did Brigham Young teach that Christians are ignorant people?||Those Abominable Creeds +|
|31. Smith's history of treasure-digging||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #11 from this article) + Joseph Smith and Money-Digging + See post #15|
|32. Joseph Smith repeatedly claimed angel 'Nephi' -- Not 'Moroni' was 'Angel' that visited him||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #5 from this article)|
|33. Gold plates difficult for Joseph Smith to move||How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates?|
|34. Loss of credibility of so-called 'Book of Mormon witnesses'||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #14 from this article) + The Witnesses + Book of Mormon witnesses||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #9)|
|36. No early mention of Melchizedek priesthood in Mormon church||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #10 from this article)|
|38. Joseph Smith wouldn't have been able to pass a 'Word of Wisdom' interview||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #6 from this article)|
|43. Masonic influences in temple ceremony||Masonic Influence in the Endowment Ceremony + Masonry/Temple||Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10) + Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples|
|45 & 46. Lds temple ceremony changes: Why change something 'direct from Mormon god?'||Temple Ritual Changed...Again + Only The Latest In A Long Line: Temple Ceremony Changes Through History + Why the temple ceremony was changed in 1990 - LDS-Mormon + Why the need for secret death oaths in the LDS Temple Endowment Ceremony? [Secretive Mormon church]||Sandra Tanner on Mormon Temples + Top 10 Mormon Problems (see #10)|
|48. Lds church making Jews into 'Mormons' post-death as their 'saviors?'||Are Mormon people LITERAL saviors of dead Jews, others? (The OTHER World Series: Vanity)|
|50. Joseph Smith shenanigans re: Nauvoo Expositor||Nauvoo City Councils minutes of 1840s provide chaos, contention and lies [Lds' Smith Shenanigans] + Unparralled Outrage at Nauvoo + The Martyrdom: The Prophet Seals His Testimony with His Blood [168th anniversary of Lds censorship]|
|51. Joseph Smith died in a gun battle||PALMER'S ALMANAC: Mormon prophet Joseph Smith met with violent end + The Nauvoo Expositor Affair [Death of Mormon Joseph Smith]|
|53. Mormon cosmology?||Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]|
|56. Lds prophet prophecies that failed to pass (Losing faith in Joseph Smith)||The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + this earlier 2003 FR posted piece: Failed prophecies of Joseph Smith + Joseph Smith||Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith +The Prophecies of Joseph Smith + First steps into a New Life|
|57. Brigham Young's "Adam" = Mormon god teaching over 20 years||Adam God doctrine||BYU Professor Admits Adam-God Taught By Brigham Young|
|58 to 61. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] + An American Fraud: One Lawyer's Case Against Mormonism + Resources on Lds theology + How Well Do You Know Mormon Church Leaders of the Past? + Can Mormons Trust Their Prophets?|
|62. Lack of Mormon leader discernment when meeting with con artist/ murderer-to-be Mark Hofmann scandal||Film in the works about Hinckley and the Mark Hofmann Episode||Mormon Stories Podcast: The Mormon Forgery Bombings The Complex Legacy of Mark Hofmann 25 Years Later|
|65. Do official Mormon sources exist? What about the Journal of Discourses?||Do Official Mormon Sources Exist?|
|66. Church history cover-up by Lds leaders||Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #7, #129)|
|67. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief -- therefore church leaders pre-empt scope of much Lds historical scholarship||Historical issues + Interesting Looks at Mormon History||The Early Years of Mormonism|
|69. Lds church placing illegal aliens in leadership positions||2 LDS branch presidents in Utah deported to Guatemala, El Salvador|
|72. Mormon 'testimonial' manipulation||Ten Lies I Told as a Mormon Missionary|
|73. Mormon 'prophet' Hinckley covered up Mormon teaching of becoming gods||Mormon Profits and Lying|
|74. Blood atonement: How Jesus' blood is anemic per Mormonism||Blood Atonement||What is Mormon Doctrin of "blood atonement"?|
|76. Mountain Meadows Massacre: First 9/11 terrorist act in USA||Mountain Meadows Massacre:MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE HORROR CONTINUES 150 YEARS LATER + Lying for the Lord [Not the typical version / Well worth the read] (see #133-134)||Mountain Meadow Massacre|
|78 to 81. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978||Blacks and the priesthood + Racism + Racial Statements in LDS Scriptures + See Bott file & links||>Racism and Mormonism + Top 10 Mormon Problems|
|83. Lds stances re: women||Great Moments in Mormon History + Making Mormon 'Spirit' Babies [Ecumenic]|
|87. Lack of Lds church financial transparency -- even to its own members/leaders||Mormon church earns $7 billion a year from tithing, analysis indicates|
|89. Supposedly 'lay clergy' Mission Presidents receive 'sweet' 'benefits' deal||Unpaid Mormon leaders get pretty sweet deal|
|94. Relying upon emotional sentiments? (A 'testimony')||Quick Responses to the 10 Most Common LDS Questions (See #7)|
Last week, Dehlin revisited this concern raised by many Mormons...you can find that here: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church
To paraphrase Dehlin...here the Mormon church -- at best 1-2 million beyond 14 million...only 5 million worldwide ACTIVE Mormons...which means that 99.9995% of people worldwide who haven't even heard of Mormonism comes across as quite an "inefficient model" for the Mormon god to implement.
Before you are trashed, dear C.
Thank you, you do the wordily work of God Almighty on this earth.
You are the hands........
There is no better reason.
Because they are actually getting saved?
They FINALLY admit to themselves that it is bogus!
(They had REALIZED it was bogus long ago.)
They don't wanna go to HELL???
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;
and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,
and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.
Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)
Do a Google search of Brigham Young birthplace monument and read the inscription - you will discover why women were attracted to him and why he had so many wives.
Show me yours, and I’ll show you mine...
Joseph Smith, Jr. was born on 23 December 1805. The monument was erected...
Pretty hard to be both.
Because it can be readily be both of what you describe.
The latter comment of yours describes Mormon hierarchical leadership with its massive overreach.
The former comment of yours describes Mormon grassroots -- whereby it's being "evacuated" at that level.
Even true Christianity shows boom in Africa, Asia, Central America and bust in Western Europe.
I suppose by your "analysis" you would come up with "Either Christianity is a failing religion, shedding adherents in Western Europe or it's a massively powerful octopus in Africa & Asia & Central America. Pretty hard to be both."
You're an intelligent character, NS. (Yet sometimes you lack basic discernment, especially spiritual discernment)
And you, of course, are the arbiter of TRUE Christianity.
Hail, folks, the prophet speaks ! Or spews hatred, at any rate.
Because they are actually getting saved? [Circlecity]
I responded to a similar comment you just made on another thread; for those who are not following that thread, I will place my same response here:
And the sample of John Dehlin's study shows this to be the case for 11% of those Lds who self-label "disbelievers."
Per page 7 of this link -- UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens when they do? -- 1 out of 11 Lds disbelievers have moved on to a Christian (non-Mormon) denomination...
And, of course, this will only grow as more move further from their Mormon roots.