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Helen Of Troy Existed?
The Discovery Channel ^ | 10-18-2005 | Jennifer Viegas

Posted on 10/18/2005 11:08:43 AM PDT by blam

Helen of Troy Existed?

By Jennifer Viegas, Discovery News

Was a Queen of Sparta Helen of Troy?

Oct. 17, 2005— Helen of Troy, described in the epic poem The Iliad, was based on a real woman, according to a new book that weaves history, archaeology and myth to recreate the famous ancient Greek beauty's life.

According to the new theory proposed by Bettany Hughes, Helen's mythological character was inspired by a wealthy Bronze Age leader from the southern mainland of Greece.

Hughes, a former Oxford University scholar who has conducted research in the Balkans, Greece, and Asia Minor, was unavailable for comment.

In her book "Helen of Troy: Goddess, Princess, Whore," however, she wrote, "I believe that all three incarnations — princess, goddess and whore — find their root in a Bronze Age Helen, that the template for Helen of Troy was provided by one of the rich Spartan queens who lived and died on the Greek mainland in the 13th century B.C.; a woman who slept at night and woke at dawn, a flesh-and-blood icon, an aristocrat responsible for orgia — secretive, mysterious fertility rites — a woman so blessed, so honoured, so powerful, she appeared to walk with the gods. A mortal who, down the centuries, has become larger than life."

Based upon the writings of Homer, Sappho, the historian Herodotus, and others, Hughes thinks Helen's palace was located on a Spartan hill called Therapne near the River Eurotas. Three skeletons — one of a 30-year-old woman and two belonging to children — were excavated at the site, along with evidence of structures that had been destroyed by fire, according to Hughes.

It is unclear what happened at the site, but Hughes thinks Helen's life was short, since the average lifespan for Mycenaean females was 28 years.

"Women were mothers at twelve, grandmothers at twenty-four, dead before they were thirty," she wrote.

Homer described Helen as fair and shimmering. Hughes wrote that the shimmer came from linen clothing soaked in perfumed olive oil, which was customary for well-heeled women of the time.

While Greeks generally have dark hair, frescoes dating to Helen's era around 3,500 years ago reveal at least one woman with "tawny red hair and blue eyes."

Hughes speculated that Helen had such hair and would have been viewed as special, "entrusted with particular religious authority."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bettanyhughes; catastrophism; chippie; existed; feminonsense; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; greece; helen; helenofsparta; helenoftroy; iliad; laconia; menelaus; mycenaean; mycenaeans; sparta; theiliad; trojanwar; troy
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To: waverna
In that genre, this was the face that lauched a few starships:


81 posted on 10/18/2005 3:11:54 PM PDT by mikrofon (Elaan of Troyius)
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To: jpsb; blam

The supposed Dark Age of Greece is illusory. It's important to note I think that while there is some Linear B material (archaic Greek) from Pylos (excavated by Carl Blegen) and some other mainland sites, probably other written material (perhaps on non-durable items like papyrus or parchment) was destroyed with the palaces. Pollen cores show that the period of the supposed Dark Age saw some of the heaviest (ever) cultivation of olive trees. :')


82 posted on 10/18/2005 10:43:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: wideawake

While there are always some who live a long time, longer than anyone they themselves know, the idea that men used to outlive their wives by many years isn't that remarkable. In the 19th century, one of my great-great-grandfathers was married three times (five kids by the first one, a second wife who died after about a year, perhaps from childbirth, and a third wife, my ancestor, who added another thirteen children) died an old man in the flu epidemic of 1873, which also claimed his third wife.


83 posted on 10/18/2005 10:48:30 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: Cicero
In the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur, Crete ruled the Mediterranean.

I have noticed that even myths seem to follow ancient history fairly well.

84 posted on 10/19/2005 6:01:21 AM PDT by Shanda
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To: mikrofon

LOL! She was just a b!tch with magic tears. I was thinking of the one with the midget who didn't have the mind-control abilities of the other Greek gods on the planet. (Maybe they were Roman. I'm getting old)


85 posted on 10/19/2005 6:22:01 AM PDT by waverna
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To: waverna

The episode was Plato's Stepchildren, I think. They were a band of inter-stellar travellers who admired the world of classical Greece and dedicated themselves to blah, blah, blah...

The psychokinetic power came from the diet on the planet where they settled. The cruel king's name was Parmen. His wife was hot, but a bit into S&M. The little guy, Alexander, was played by the same actor who played archvillian Megalito Lovelace on the Wild Wild West.

One of the songs Alexander was made to sing included lyrics from Aristophanes' The Frogs.

And I never tried to be a Star Trek geek. It just came natural.


86 posted on 10/19/2005 6:33:50 AM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Sometimes people look at statistics and draw the wrong conclusions. If there is high infant mortality, and high mortality in childbirth, the average life expectancy of females goes way down. It is mistaken, however, to conclude that a woman who had survived these perils would soon die just because she had exceeded the mean average lifespan.


87 posted on 10/19/2005 6:40:48 AM PDT by swain_forkbeard (Rationality may not be sufficient, but it is necessary.)
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To: swain_forkbeard

I'm having difficulty understanding how people have so much riding on the idea that women must have lived longer than 28 or 30. Some did, but it wasn't typical.

In the Odyssey, the hero finally returns from the ten year Trojan War, but only ten years after the others had; his wife was alive and well, and had a bunch of Mycenaean ne'er do wells trying to drill her. She was from the aristocracy, and historically the aristocracy generally have an easier time of it and longer lifespans.

I don't buy the idea that Helen of Troy was some sort of shaved-head dominatrix. That sounds like some sort of cryptofeminist anachronism. Spartan women during the classical Greek period did indeed have their heads shaved in a rite of passage involving marriage.

Classical Spartan society was separated by gender, and the boys were all sodomized compulsorily from a young age. When it came time to marry (which was also expected by the society), the bride was shaved, dressed in a boy's cloak, and left in a dark room; the husband arrived, did his deed, and then returned to sleep with the rest of the men.

According to the Spartans themselves, that weirdo fetishistic society arose *after* the overthrow of the descendants of Menelaus.


88 posted on 10/19/2005 7:02:42 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: swain_forkbeard
His wife was hot, but a bit into S&M.
Oh yeah, Barbara Babcock.
89 posted on 10/19/2005 7:03:20 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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the face that launched a thousand, well, something...
The Women Of Star Trek: Mea Three

90 posted on 10/19/2005 7:18:37 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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To: blam

I always figured she had to be real to lunch on a thousand ships. People don't go around making up stuff like that up. She was probably trying to set a new record.

parsy, the logical.


91 posted on 10/19/2005 7:24:09 AM PDT by parsifal
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To: bert

Actually, Helen of Troy is rated at 1 Helen, an unachievable level (sort of like absolute 0 on the Kelvin scale). Other women are measured at fractions of a Helen. The highest possible rating is 999 miliHelens (mH) or .999 Helens.

Helen Thomas would likey be rated at negative milihelens - ships would be launched to get rid of her or keep her away.

Bo Derek is good, but does not rate a full Helen under any circumstances.





92 posted on 10/19/2005 7:39:11 AM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: swain_forkbeard

Ah yes, I remember it well. Spock singing 'Bitter Dregs' not to mention the big interracial kiss, the Tweedle-Dum Tweedle Dee song...


93 posted on 10/19/2005 9:33:49 AM PDT by waverna
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To: yarddog
Yep, Helen Thomas would not launch even a water wing full of holes.

Helen Thomas could easily launch a thousand ships. It is the direction of travel that would change.

She might rate a thousand ships and an equal number of swimmers, content to drown if they didn't escape.

94 posted on 10/20/2005 7:09:51 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Mr Rogers
I was just trying to think of a modern actress who would qualify as perfect in face and form and simply couldn't think of one.

There are plenty of beautiful ones but none are really perfect.

95 posted on 10/20/2005 7:18:07 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: mikrofon
Ah yes! Liat from Bali Hai!

..and her mother had a drink named after her!

BTW The Illiad was written in the 3rd Century BC, 800 years after the Trojan War! It would be more than 2000 years before Schliemann went looking for Troy. He found it!!!! A strong reason for Classical Training.

96 posted on 10/20/2005 7:18:46 PM PDT by Young Werther
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To: wideawake

Quote"-I'm not aware of Homer describing Helen as "shimmering" and the ancient Greeks were not physically identical to modern Greeks.-"Quote

They didn't change that much either, if you look at all the pottery and statues that have been unearthed, modern Greeks look pretty similar to their ancestors.

Quote"-The Greeks of Homer's world were descendants of several waves of Northern invasions. Blondism and green and blue eyes were quite common among ancient Greeks."-Quote

Blondism/red hair and green/blue eyes are still very common among modern Greeks just as dark hair and dark eyes is. Here are a few pics of modern Greeks who are fair:

http://www.geocities.com/mtsiaklis2001/zl02.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/chrisa.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w2/chara.jpg
http://www.santasofiagr.com/marianta016.jpg
http://www.santasofiagr.com/marianta017.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w2/katia_zygouli.jpg
http://top-class.gr/modelsmen/dimitris_galanidis/picture3l.jpg
http://img.pathfinder.gr/clubs/images/95/125895/2.jpg
http://freeweb.supereva.com/ritroritro/mastrokosta4.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mtsiaklis2008/vk116.jpg
http://www.greekshops.com/images/Top40/manto_03.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/nath4.jpg
http://galeon.hispavista.com/dimiscp2/DSCP2_029_Vicky_Mpartzioka_and_Tania_Mavraki-01.jpg
http://homepages.pathfinder.gr/greekbeautifulwomen/kartsona.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mtsiaklis2004/akpic11.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/eleana_vlahou/picture1l.jpg
http://www.marialouiza.net/photos/tilethea/tlth01_1.jpg
http://www.marialouiza.net/photos/thle/til_0201.jpg
http://www.missuniverse.com/delegates/2005/images/main/GR.jpg
http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mu2003/swim/greece1.jpg
http://www.tvzapping.gr/Images/zz581.gif
http://top-class.gr/models/konstantina_kalesiou/picture1l.jpg
http://greece.hispeed.com/mv12.jpg
http://greece.hispeed.com/kz11.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/jenny_methot/picture2l.jpg
http://media.santabanta.com/gal/mw2004/sizzler/greece3.jpg
http://greece.hispeed.com/is12.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/julia_pilitsidou/picture6l.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/models/julia_pilitsidou/picture3l.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/models/thomi_drakondi/picture2l.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w1/laura_mouriki.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/laura_mouriki/picture5l.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/agapi_kapetanopoulou/picture3l.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/anna_biyinna/picture3l.jpg
http://freeweb.supereva.com/ratareta/kartsona8.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/mei_papalexiou/picture1l.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/maria_michelakou/picture2l.jpg
http://freeweb.supereva.com/ringhiotto/michelakou12.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelsmen/angelos_papias/picture1l.jpg
http://stvc.interfree.it/WorldCelebs/Grecia/CristinaDesli(grecia)8.JPG
http://dienekes.angeltowns.net/pictures/greekwomen/malisianou.jpg
http://www.nikos-chrisikakis.net/new/portraits/mastrokosta/3.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w1/angela_markaki.jpg
http://top-class.gr/models/olga_tsikalidou/picture2l.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/analise4.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelsmen/alexis_malega/picture1l.jpg
http://www.hawaiiantropicgirls.com/model.php?modelID=1044314758
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w1/anna_maria_papadopoulou.jpg
http://www.greece.hispeed.com/ka11.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/fricchiogeo/FeyMakri.jpg
http://greece.hispeed.com/mm29.jpg
http://www.greekchicago.com/gallery/albums/greece-euro-cup-2004/15_G.jpg
http://news.tom.com/img/assets/200309/030916213057zk20030916-32.jpg
http://www.greece.hispeed.com/yd09.jpg
http://greece.hispeed.com/mm24.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w2/dimitra_kitsiou.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelsmen/leonidas_siamanidis/picture4l.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w2/eleftheria_pantelidaki.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/filipa3.jpg
http://www.santasofiagr.com/natassa002.jpg
http://www.link2look.com/gallery/abc/228/19_558x800.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w2/katerina_georgiadou.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelsmen/teo_theodoridis/picture1l.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/models/eleni_pandi/picture3l.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/models/eva_geovanekou/picture1l.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp2/moderngreeks/w1/chrysanthi_dafla.jpg
http://www.link2look.com/gallery/abc/228/1_558x800.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/alimono2kalosmaal.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/sofia-rapth6.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mikellino2002/katerina_georgiadou.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/mtsiaklis2004/giolanda4.jpg

Few modern Greek tikes:
http://top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/99-01/g4.jpg
http://top-class.gr/modelkids/boys/94-95/b1.jpg
http://top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/94-96/g1.jpg
http://top-class.gr/modelkids/boys/00-02/b3.jpg
http://top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/97-99/g2.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/92-94/g6.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/99-01/g3.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/99-01/g6.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/boys/89-93/b3.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/94-96/g2.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/boys/00-02/b2.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/boys/00-02/b4.jpg
http://www.top-class.gr/modelkids/girls/97-99/g5.jpg

Greeks, both modern and ancient, have always come in all colors: blond/red/brown/black haired, brown/blue/green eyed, fair/olive skinned. What is rare in Greece are people of other races. By that I mean people of African, Asian, Oriental, etc. descent. Its only been in the last 15 years that you would see people of other races in the country and they are still a rarity.

Quote-"Greeks today are descendants of a variety of nationalities -urban Greece in the 1st century AD was the rough equivalent of NYC today - a broad mixture of ethnicities."-Quote

Greece did have some mix of ethnicity but I would not say it was equivalent to any that NYC has today and not to the extend that some believe it to be. The remarkable power of assimilation which the Greeks possesed in virtue of their ethnic civilizations through out the centuries has shown for the most part that the Hellenic element must have always been the most numerious in order to effect so complete an absorption of any suppose re-population of non Hellenic peoples. This element has apparently been a repeat theme with Hellenic civilizations through out their existance. Even the destructive invasions of the Goths in A.D. 267 and 395 introduced no new ethnic feature; the various races which during the middle ages obtained partial or complete mastery in Greece, the Franks, the Venetians, the Turks, contributed little to no appreciable ingredient to the mass of the population. The modern Greeks may therefore be regarded as in the main the descendants of the populations which inhabited Greece in ancient times.

My family moved to the States in 1979 when I was young kid. Don't mean to sound weird or anything here but I never saw a person of another race until we moved to the states. The only ethnicity I saw and was familiar with was an all white Greek one. You had gypsie here and there but they were mostly outcasts, I know, not PC but that's how the country was. The only ethnicities I was familiar with before moving as a young kid to the states was the Muslims, who to most Greeks were only the Turks, and the gypsies. The first non white person I saw in Greece was Asian back in 1985, she was a highschool friend of one of my cousin's and I think her family might have been the only Asians in the whole country back then. LoL! When I first met her, I expected her to start talking English not Greek and it sruck me odd when I heard her speaking Greek because being just a naïve kid I thought Asians, Blacks, Latinos etc. only spoke English since the first place I saw any people of other races and nationalities was in the States. So, I associated them as such. Yeah I know stupid but like I said, I was a naive kid and didn't know better. Seriously its only been in the last 15 years that a variety of other nationalities and races have been moving into the country where you can see their presence, by that I mean language, ethnicity, nationality etc. and even that is still in its infancy.


97 posted on 10/21/2005 1:10:54 PM PDT by apro
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

quote -"But more beautiful than Hellen was Penelope, the wife of Odysseus. When she walked among the suitors their knees became weak and they each desired to lay with her."-quote

Three most beautiful women in Greek mythology were Helen, Aphrodite and Persephone. Penelope was known as the most loyal.


98 posted on 10/21/2005 1:20:36 PM PDT by apro
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To: apro
Don't you mean Athena instead of Persephone? She was the other who was offered The Golden Apple of The Sun.
99 posted on 10/21/2005 2:37:43 PM PDT by NathanR (Mexico: So far from God; So close to the USA.)
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To: blam
Certainly Virgil thought she existed.

"Arma virorumque cano,"

"Arms and the man I sing,"

The opening line of the Illiad.

100 posted on 10/21/2005 2:41:00 PM PDT by LibKill (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. - Benjamin Franklin)
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