Is an Eclipse Described in the Odyssey (and does it date the return of Odysseus to Penelope)

Proceedings of the National Academy of Science June 2008 ^ | June 2008 | Marcelo Magnasco

[wildbill]

“Now when did Odysseus return to Penelope? The date is given with a precision most unusual in epic poetry.”

"Because the lines describing the alleged eclipse are considered suspect, we shall use other passages in the Odyssey to shed some light on the issue, without assuming an eclipse. Given an interpretation of certain passages in the Odyssey as describing astronomical phenomena, we will look for dates in which the phenomena match. We shall find that the most likely day matching these other phenomena is 16 April 1178 B.C., suggesting there may be corroborating information in the epic for the eclipse hypothesis. In other words, the passages we analyze appear to cohere.

Two important caveats: first, that if our interpretation of such passages as astronomical phenomena were incorrect, our calculation of dates and their probability or improbability would also be incorrect; and second, that even if correct, we get no indication whether the events narrated in the epic did happen.

[arrogantsob]

Mammoths/mastodons definitely coexisted with man. They were hunted by men and there are many drawings of them. The period of their existence was only 10s of thousands of years ago not hundreds of millions.

The problem of coexistence of men and dinosaurs is that the latter was the product of a whole set of conditions which no long existed when the former arrived. It is like finding a tv set in a primitive stone age village.

[bert]

There is no such drawing.

The creo liars make up everything they think they believe.

[ottbmare]

Of course there isn’t. I was just being polite. I thought he or she might post a link to some cave painting of a bison or something that had been misinterpreted as a dinosaur.

I have always believed, however, that tales of dragons came from the discoveries people made of dinosaur bones. Dinosaur and dragon really seem like two different names for the same creatures. If you came across the skeleton of a dinosaur of any kind, you’d have no trouble at all figuring out what it looked like. We have no trouble recognizing animal skeletons found in the woods today, for instance.

[SunkenCiv]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2745507/posts?page=59#59

[SunkenCiv]

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[bigheadfred]

Just think, some homey will rap something about Obama (an Epic record) that will leave later generations saying, “None of this could have really happened, could it?”

[SunkenCiv]

[from a file, probably posted here a while back]

Blegen thought that VI was destroyed by an earthquake, and that VIIa, which he called a squatter city, was the Troy of the Trojan war. Interesting that Blegen speaks of an earthquake -- there is plenty in the Iliad which suggests some kind of natural disaster going on. Thucydides also records massive quakes during the Peloponnesian war.

My view is that Dorpfeld was correct, VI is the Troy of the war, but would agree with Blegen VIIa was a squatter city, adding that VIIa was leveled by the so-called Hittites. The city of the fine walls has now been shown to have been quite extensive, more typical of Anatolian towns than those of Greece.

From the records at Hattusas, it's obvious that there was plenty of piratical raiding going on, and that's probably what the Trojan War was. When the story was written down it got embellished somewhat by Homer. Wood notes that the name Homer means "hostage", which suggests a hostage exchange typical of ancient treaties.

But it wouldn't be at all surprising if the cast of characters involved in the raids (the leaders anyway) remained more or less the same.

In Search of the Trojan War
by Michael Wood

"These vague resemblances do not look like mere chance; Achaiwoi/Ahhiyawa; Alaksandus/Alexandros [Paris]; Wilusa/Wilios; Taruisa/Troia: each in isolation presents problems, but four resemblances is pressing coincidence too far." (p 207 of the earlier edition, italics in original)

"Was There a Trojan War?" Evidence from Hittite Records
by J.D. Hawkins
May/June 2004

A long letter from a Hittite king, probably Hattusili III (who ruled circa 1267-1237 B.C.), to the king of Ahhiyawa mentions that Wilusa was once a bone of contention between the two. The location of Ahhiyawa has been controversial since its earliest recognition in the Hittite texts in the 1920s. The scattered references to it suggested that it lay across the sea and that its interests often conflicted with those of the Hittites. What is now known of the geography of western Anatolia makes it clear that there could be no room on the mainland for the kingdom of Ahhiyawa. Furthermore, the references to the political interests of Ahhiyawa on the west coast mesh well with increasing archaeological evidence for Mycenaean Greeks in the area, so that it is now widely accepted that "Ahhiyawa" is indeed the Hittite designation for this culture.

[SunkenCiv]

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[SunkenCiv]

Instead, they’ll look at it and say, “what this flat thing? Must be plate. Let’s eat.”

[bigheadfred]

Here I was holding out some hope for the future. I guess that they would recognize a plate leaves a little room.

[arrogantsob]

Interesting comments.

We have been aculturated to think of the Homeric Greeks as some kind of heroes when they would more accurately be considered as ancient Vikings farming part of the year and raiding/trading during other times. Maybe not as murderous as the Norsemen but slavers and, as you said, pirates.

[grey_whiskers]

And the day before has become tax day. Talk about bad omens.

As I read somewhere, Screw March. Beware the Ides of April!

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

I'll see you and raise you one!

Cheers!

[tlb]

>>> Cultures around the world have “oral traditions” of a worldwide flood. Still people don’t want to believe it.

Perhaps in part because none of these ancient peoples would know if the extent of their observed “great flood” was global or not. No satellite views, no telephones from the next continent, no info at all beyond what they could see from their soggy perch.

Floods aren’t rare. Biblical deluges are.

But sometime look up the sketchy info on the great meteor that apparently fell in the Indian Ocean circa 3000BC. The tsunamis from such an event could tie together many of these stories in Africa, the Middle East, India, and South America.

[SunkenCiv]

;’)

[SunkenCiv]

They enjoyed a good raid. :') They lived settled lives, but like the Scandinavians, they were mostly caught between mountains and the sea. There was a (natural) climate peak, followed eventually by a cooling. There was a population explosion (again, like the Vikings), one result of which was the Lake Copais project, so they weren't just pirates. :')

The Mycenaean period ended by invasion, not all that long after the Trojan War. The pantheon of deities had changed by the time writing reemerged, and the more familiar alphabetic writing system arrived.

[Joe 6-pack]

"We have no trouble recognizing animal skeletons found in the woods today, for instance."

You're kidding right? Animal remains are fairly regularly reported as human until they can be excluded by laboratory tests. Bear paws are frequently confused with human hands...

[Fred Nerks]

Dinosaurs in Literature, Art & History

http://www.s8int.com/dinolit1.html

[wildbill]

When a flood seemingly goes on forever and is much worse than normal flooding in your known ‘world’ that may extend only a few miles from home, you’d describe it to younger generatios as something akin to a God-driven “global” flood too.

Any I was taught to revere my elders and what they say.

[BJClinton]

That's nothing. A whole slew of hard drinking rednecks claim to have been abducted by aliens, having their rectums forcibly examined and they hated it.

At first.