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One God, Three Equal Persons: St. Gregory of Nazianzus {Ecumenical Thread}
EWTN ^ | 357 AD | St. Gregory of Nazianzus

Posted on 05/09/2011 9:46:44 AM PDT by Cronos

WHEN did these come into being? They are above all "When." But, if I am to speak with something more of boldness,--when the Father did. And when did the Father come into being. There never was a time when He was not. And the same thing is true of the Son and the Holy Ghost. Ask me again, and again I will answer you, When was the Son begotten? When the Father was not begotten. And when did the Holy Ghost proceed? When the Son was, not proceeding but, begotten--beyond the sphere of time, and above the grasp of reason; although we cannot set forth that which is above time, if we avoid as we desire any expression which conveys the idea of time (Theological Orations III.3).

TO us there is One God, for the Godhead is One, and all that proceedeth from Him is referred to One, though we believe in Three Persons. For one is not more and another less God; nor is One before and another after; nor are They divided in will or parted in power; nor can you find here any of the qualities of divisible things; but the Godhead is, to speak concisely, undivided in separate Persons; and there is one mingling of Light, as it were of three suns joined to each other. When then we look at the Godhead, or the First Cause, or the Monarchia, that which we conceive is One; but when we look at the Persons in Whom the Godhead dwells, and at Those Who timelessly and with equal glory have their Being [in] the First Cause--there are Three Whom we worship (Theological Orations V.14).

THIS, then, is my position with regard to these things, and I hope it may be always my position, and that of whosoever is dear to me; to worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom (Theological Orations V.28).


TOPICS: Ecumenism; Theology
KEYWORDS: trinity
A well prayed over verse by the great St. Gregory
1 posted on 05/09/2011 9:46:50 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother aka the comforter), and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity from which Christianity gets it Trinity.


2 posted on 05/09/2011 9:53:12 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine
Jack: Nimrod (father), Semiramis (mother aka the comforter), and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity from which Christianity gets it Trinity.

oohkay..

3 posted on 05/09/2011 10:06:53 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Thank God for the Fathers. So excellent in Reason, yet wisely accepting of Mystery—all in perfect balance.

Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost!


4 posted on 05/09/2011 10:19:34 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: Jack Hydrazine

This is an ecumenical thread, meaning a discussion of doctrines all of one religion (Christianity) accept. NOT a place for non-Christians to argue.

If you knew ANYTHING about the history of the understanding of the holy Trinity, you’d know the discussions of the Christian Fathers had nothing at all to do with “Semiramis” or “Tammuz”...rather, the clear testimony of the sacred Scriptures that the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.


5 posted on 05/09/2011 10:24:57 AM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: AnalogReigns; Jack Hydrazine
Well, Analog -- I think jack can talk about his beliefs. He's not been antagonistic, just that we disagree. He's told us what he believes in, we can talk about ours and not argue.

The mystery of the Trinity, of the nature of God is a wonderful example of love through the ages, outside of time itself

6 posted on 05/09/2011 10:35:11 AM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Cronos; Jack Hydrazine

***and Tammuz (the son) are the original trinity****

Yet Tammuz (Attis, Osiris, Adonis) gets killed each year on the longest day of the year. that is when the women “weep for tammuz.”


7 posted on 05/09/2011 10:59:32 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Click my name. See my home page, if you dare!)
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To: AnalogReigns

I’m not arguing with you just stating a fact. Go look up the pagan origins of Christianity and you will find some very interesting information.

Christianity is essentially the syncretizing of Judaic and pagan beliefs. Islam is also a sycretizing of Judaic and Arab pagan beliefs. Both Christians and Muslims don’t want to admit that.

All I can say is do your own research.

Has Christianity made the West and the world a better place for deifying a dead Jewish rabbi and following the basic universal core tenets of Jewish beliefs that he followed? Yes!

Everyone needs a rabbi and if Rabbi Joshua (aka Jesus) works for the Christians then so be it.


8 posted on 05/09/2011 11:50:52 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Jack -

It is not a “fact” that Christianity is a lie.

The word “fact” means something else.


9 posted on 05/09/2011 11:57:25 AM PDT by rogue yam
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To: All

“One God, Three equal Persons”

God is not three people but rather holds Three offices.

He is the Alpha and Omega. He is One the beginning and the end.

Example. I am my Parents SON, My wifes HUSBAND, and my Childrens DAD. 3 offices not 3 people


10 posted on 05/09/2011 12:24:00 PM PDT by Bailee
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To: Bailee

Gregory of Nazianzus sets this forth as official terminology:

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost, Three Persons, One Godhead, undivided in honour and glory and substance and kingdom (Theological Orations V.28).

However, I don’t see such a statement anywhere in the New Testament. I don’t even see the words “three persons” anywhere. Why would the Bible have to wait some three hundred years for Gregory of Nazianzus to set the record straight? Weren’t the NT writers inspired?


11 posted on 05/09/2011 12:54:31 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: rogue yam

I didn’t say Christianity was a lie. They base most of their beliefs on Torah truths directly or indirectly but there are some pagan beliefs and practices that still linger.

It’s up to Christians to question why they believe and practice what they do and act accordingly to the conviction that God puts in their hearts.


12 posted on 05/09/2011 1:18:10 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

You are playing dishonest games with words.

Christianity is either true or else it is “based on pagan beliefs”. It can’t be both and you know it.

Christians believe what we do because we believe that the events described in our holy scriptures are true. That is, we believe they actually happened as described.

Apparently you do not believe this and that is your choice. But why do you come on here, call Christianity a lie, and then deny doing so? What compels you to such deceit?


13 posted on 05/09/2011 1:37:51 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam

Go do your research and find out the origins of Christianity.

Are you aware that the early New England colonists such as the Pilgrims (and I think Puritans) did not celebrate Christmas and Easter. Why would they not celebrate such Christian holidays?

Again, all I ask is that you do your own research.


14 posted on 05/09/2011 1:55:33 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: sasportas

Maybe Gregory of NaZianzus got it wrong. Why would the Bible need to be set straight in the first place.

Rev 22 18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.


15 posted on 05/09/2011 2:24:46 PM PDT by Bailee
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To: Bailee

Didn’t Gregory of Nazianzus liken the three “persons” of the Trinity to three men, or three people? Yet he said the Trinity is indivisible. Go figure.


16 posted on 05/09/2011 2:43:36 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Here’s what happened:

You said that it is a “fact” that Christian beliefs are untrue.

I replied that this is not a fact.

You then claimed that you did not state that Christian beliefs are untrue.

I explained that this claim of yours was a lie.

You then changed the subject.

Believe whatever you want to about God, Jacko, but if you claim that Christianity is a lie then I will contradict you since I believe that it is true.

And if you lie to to me about what you have said then I will point out that you are a liar.

The interesting question here is what is it that compels you to come on here and denigrate Christianity and to lie about your having done so? I do not expect we’ll get an answer to this question. I don’t suppose you really know the answer yourself.


17 posted on 05/09/2011 2:48:37 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: sasportas

Christ in the New Testament tells the disciples and apostles to go forth to all the world, “baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

Is that enough scripture for everyone?


18 posted on 05/09/2011 2:57:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos
One God, Three Equal Persons: St. Gregory of Nazianzus {Ecumenical Thread}

Radio Replies Second Volume - The Holy Trinity
The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}
A Mystery for Eternity (Reflection on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity)
On the Trinity (Angelus Address from 5/30/2010)
Mystery of the Trinity
The Trinity: More Than Just Doctrine
Origen on the Trinity: A Man Ahead of His Time
Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion
Radio Replies First Volume - The Holy Trinity
‘We live to love and be loved,’ teaches Pope while reflecting on Trinity (absolutely beautiful!)

Deathbed Request: 'Tell me About the Trinity’
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
The Most Holy Trinity
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Trinity [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Holy Trinity (excerpt from the Light of Faith by St. Thomas Aquinas)
The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 3: God and the Holy Trinity
Sheed on the Trinity (Catholic Caucus)
The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - Greek and Latin Traditions About the Filioque
Trinity Facts

The Real Trinity
We believe in one only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Brief Reflections on the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, and the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura
Why Do We Believe in the Trinity?
The Holy Trinity
Trinity Sunday (and the Trinity season)
Trinitarian Mystery
HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity
MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY
The Divine Trinity

19 posted on 05/09/2011 3:01:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Arianism, Nestorianism, Modalism, Monophysitism, Monothelitism, etc. all had their advocates in the the early years of the Church ... and all were decisively refuted by the early Church.

I believe that Jesus founded a real, visible, organized, authoritative Church because He knows eternally that such ideas as these would appear, and reappear, and need to be refuted.

20 posted on 05/09/2011 3:04:52 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Salvation

Bailee and I were not denying Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I wasn’t anyway, can’t speak for him. I was arguing against Gregory’s terminology of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three “persons,” three people, three men.


21 posted on 05/09/2011 3:10:17 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: rogue yam

Let me quote what I said.

“I didn’t say Christianity was a lie. They base most of their beliefs on Torah truths directly or indirectly but there are some pagan beliefs and practices that still linger.”

If you look at Rabbi Joshua (aka Jesus) and Judaism you will find it has never given any quarter to the belief in a trinity whether of Babylonian origins or the modern day Christian equivalent. God has always been a unique, single, non-corporeal being and will be so for the rest of eternity.

Jews have always professed and practiced living by the words of the Torah which say, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.” Jews have kept those words even to their deaths when others have disagreed how many gods there might be.

All I ask you to do is find out the pagan origins of Christianity. Where in the Christian’s New Testament that it says to go and celebrate Easter? Do you know the origins of Easter? You can get angry all you want but I don’t desire that for you. All I’m asking you to do is challenge what you have been taught.


22 posted on 05/09/2011 3:15:28 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: rogue yam

Let me quote what I said.

“I didn’t say Christianity was a lie. They base most of their beliefs on Torah truths directly or indirectly but there are some pagan beliefs and practices that still linger.”

If you look at Rabbi Joshua (aka Jesus) and Judaism you will find it has never given any quarter to the belief in a trinity whether of Babylonian origins or the modern day Christian equivalent. God has always been a unique, single, non-corporeal being and will be so for the rest of eternity.

Jews have always professed and practiced living by the words of the Torah which say, “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One.” Jews have kept those words even to their deaths when others have disagreed how many gods there might be.

All I ask you to do is find out the pagan origins of Christianity. Where in the Christian’s New Testament that it says to go and celebrate Easter? Do you know the origins of Easter? You can get angry all you want but I don’t desire that for you. All I’m asking you to do is challenge what you have been taught.


23 posted on 05/09/2011 3:16:35 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Cronos

My advice when posting an Ecumenical thread: Go ahead and put the R.Mod’s guidelines concerning Ecumenical threads in post #1.

Freegards


24 posted on 05/09/2011 3:42:27 PM PDT by Ransomed
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To: Jack Hydrazine
You are a profoundly dishonest person. Everything that you say is a lie, and then you lie about what you have said.

For example, you state:

If you look at Rabbi Joshua (aka Jesus) and Judaism you will find it has never given any quarter to the belief in a trinity whether of Babylonian origins or the modern day Christian equivalent.

What you claim here is refuted by direct quotation from Jesus Christ Himself as recorded in The Gospel According to Matthew.

Matthew 28:16-20 (New International Version)

The Great Commission

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

You imply that you are a Jew but I do not believe that it is within Jewish tradition to promote Judaism with lies. I believe that the motivation for your corruption comes from somewhere other than the God of the Torah.

25 posted on 05/09/2011 5:14:06 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam

Depends on who you think wrote the Christian New Testament.

Show me the Trinity in the Torah. Moses was a messiah figure but he never considered himself part of a trinity and never taught it.

Again, Jews have always professed, based upon the words of God Himself, that He is One and only One. There can no one co-equal with Him.

He is indivisible and can not be split in to two or more parts.

He is infinite, not finite like the rabbi you follow.

Even if a man can overcome death through the ascension process does not make a man a god or God.

He is unique and no one else like Him.

Many people past and present are not able to a fathom a God who is non-corporeal.

When I pray I don’t have to go through a middle man to have God hear my prayers. I don’t have to go through Moses, Mary, the Prophets, or the Christian pantheon of saints. It’s straight and direct.

It’s your choice to believe what you want but, Again, all I ask is that you look up the info yourself.


26 posted on 05/09/2011 6:46:55 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Jack Hydrazine

You keep changing the subject and refusing to acknowledge that your words have been shown to be lies.

You pretend to be thoughtful and well-informed and urge me to educate myself, yet it is you who have argued disingenuously and I who have replied with rationality and fact.

Perhaps you are accustomed to your tactics being more “successful” with others but with me it is “no sale”.

I have no idea what you hope to achieve by disgracing yourself as you have but certainly you are not honoring God thus.


27 posted on 05/09/2011 7:37:50 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam

Do you accept that there is a trinity because some one told you there is such? Do you blindly believe everything you read?


28 posted on 05/09/2011 7:49:54 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: rogue yam
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

29 posted on 05/09/2011 8:10:42 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

If someone is arguing dishonestly it is against forum rules to point this out?

Are we really obliged to pretend that there is no difference between logic and illogic, between truth and lies?


30 posted on 05/09/2011 8:21:12 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Hurl all of the mindless insults you want, Jack, it will not make your posts seem more rational of honest.


31 posted on 05/09/2011 8:22:50 PM PDT by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam
This is an "open" Religion Forum thread. You can condemn your opponent's statements, his logic, sources, deities, beliefs, etc.

But you must not read his mind, attribute motive to him or otherwise make this the thread "about" him personally.

Click on my profile page for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.

32 posted on 05/09/2011 8:28:55 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Bailee
true, here's a depiction


33 posted on 05/09/2011 8:59:25 PM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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To: Jack Hydrazine

question — then what do you believe? That Jesus Christ was just a teacher? That the Pauline epistles etc. are wrong? I assume you hold to Noahcide principles, correct?


34 posted on 05/09/2011 9:45:37 PM PDT by Cronos (Libspeak: "Yes there is proof. And no, for the sake of privacy I am not posting it here.")
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