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The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}
New Advent ^ | 14-Aug-2010 | Newadvetn

Posted on 08/14/2010 12:20:34 AM PDT by Cronos

The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion — the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together.

(Excerpt) Read more at newadvent.org ...


TOPICS: Ecumenism; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: trinitarianism; trinity
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Cyc brought up a good topic for a serious debate. Please let's focus on this topic alone.
1 posted on 08/14/2010 12:20:37 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: count-your-change; trisham; wagglebee; Alamo-Girl; D-fendr; boatbums; Mad Dawg
CYC: I believe what the Scriptures teach and I do not believe the Scriptures support the trinity doctrine.

Thank you boatbums for the suggestion to have a separate thread.
2 posted on 08/14/2010 12:22:03 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: count-your-change; boatbums; Deo volente; Jvette; Legatus; D-fendr
From newadvent (the same source as the article)
First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

Now in the non-Trinitarian category, we can place the levels as: 1. Does not believe Jesus is / was God
1. That he was just a prophet (Muslim inconsistent belief since they believe in the virgin birth)
2. that Jesus was a mn who got "possessed" by the Holy Spirit who left Him when He was dying (again repeated in the Koran)
2. DOES believe Jesus is God, but does not hold to the idea that there is a Triune God (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three "persons" i.e. homousia with One divine Nature
1. That all are the same God seen incorectly by humans (like the Oneness Pentecostals)
2. That Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and there are only 2 "persons" of God (Binitarianism)3. That Jesus is one of 2 or more gods.

3 posted on 08/14/2010 12:34:06 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Mr. Lucky; xone; UriĀ’el-2012

ping


4 posted on 08/14/2010 12:36:13 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Cronos
It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today.

Any group that denies the Trinity cannot be considered Christian, let alone Protestant. As your article points out, the scriptures are filled with evidence. To deny the Trinity is to not understand the Word of God.

5 posted on 08/14/2010 12:37:33 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; Iscool; count-your-change; markomalley

I agree, but there are many non-Trinitarian freepers who basically want to ask the question “Why?” and I think they deserve a place where we can explain why we believe this concept. This can be a very direct thread focused on just why we believe in the Trinity as God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, all being ONE God. And they can explain why they do not. Both sides can be civil and I believe (as a Trinitarian) that we can demonstrate adequately well, so that those confused can arrive at a conclusion


6 posted on 08/14/2010 12:44:39 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Cronos
The New Advent doctrine leaves a lot to be desired.

First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures
The words translated "Holy Spirit" appear in both Old and New Testaments, as "ruakh haQodesh" (Hebrew and Aramaic) and "hagios pneumos" (Greek). Both mean "holy breath", and whereas God's messengers (angels or often Himself) act and speak, the rare appearances of the "holy spirit" are without word. Jesus' descriptions of the "holy spirit" are in the context of being a part of his composition.
Now in the non-Trinitarian category, we can place the levels as:
  1. Does not believe Jesus is / was God
    1. That he was just a prophet (Muslim inconsistent belief since they believe in the virgin birth)
    2. that Jesus was a mn who got "possessed" by the Holy Spirit who left Him when He was dying (again repeated in the Koran)
    3. DOES believe Jesus is God, but does not hold to the idea that there is a Triune God (God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as three "persons" i.e. homousia with One divine Nature

All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).
7 posted on 08/14/2010 12:51:04 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Cronos; HarleyD

“I and the Father are one”

A wealth of Trinitarian doctrine is contained in this one sentence: two persons, one being.


8 posted on 08/14/2010 3:19:22 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Cronos; HarleyD

“I and the Father are one”

A wealth of Trinitarian doctrine is contained in this one sentence: two persons, one being.


9 posted on 08/14/2010 3:19:26 AM PDT by Claud
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To: Cronos

Thanks for the ping. Company is here for the weekend which puts me on the sidelines.


10 posted on 08/14/2010 5:01:55 AM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Olog-hai

Olog-hai:

Christ is the first-born of many brethren relates to his Human nature, he is the first-born of a new humanity that has been saved by God’s grace, just as the first man Adam caused the downfall of humanity, the second-Adam is the “perfect Man”, i.e. the Divine Person Jesus Christ as a perfect human nature and thus all of us baptized into the Trinity are now the adopted sons and daughters of God adn thus brothers of CHrist. All of us who are baptized into the Trinity and believe in the Holy Trinity and all that has been revealed by Christ are born anew via baptisim which cleanses original sin and all sin, makes us a member of God’s Family, thus brothers and sisters of Chrsit and members of Christ Body the Church.

In summary, the goal of God’s plan of salvation (cf Roman 8: 29-30) is aimed at conforming all who come to know the One True God and believe in him into the image of Christ and thus it is aimed at the final glory of all who put their faith in Christ.


11 posted on 08/14/2010 5:02:33 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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The “triune” trinity is non-Biblical. In fact Jesus prayed that his desciples would be one even and he and his Father are one.

“And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22)

It’s clear that there are three personages, but Eusibius said that it was Constantine (a pagan) who came up the “triune” notion.


12 posted on 08/14/2010 7:51:11 AM PDT by webboy45
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To: Cronos
Other threads bearing on the Blessed Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit:

The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}
A Mystery for Eternity (Reflection on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity)
On the Trinity (Angelus Address from 5/30/2010)
Mystery of the Trinity
The Trinity: More Than Just Doctrine
Origen on the Trinity: A Man Ahead of His Time
Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion
Radio Replies First Volume - The Holy Trinity
‘We live to love and be loved,’ teaches Pope while reflecting on Trinity (absolutely beautiful!)

Deathbed Request: 'Tell me About the Trinity’
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
The Most Holy Trinity
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Trinity [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Holy Trinity (excerpt from the Light of Faith by St. Thomas Aquinas)
The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 3: God and the Holy Trinity
Sheed on the Trinity (Catholic Caucus)
The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - Greek and Latin Traditions About the Filioque
Trinity Facts

The Real Trinity
We believe in one only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Brief Reflections on the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, and the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura
Why Do We Believe in the Trinity?
The Holy Trinity
Trinity Sunday (and the Trinity season)
Trinitarian Mystery
HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity
MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY
The Divine Trinity

13 posted on 08/14/2010 8:28:00 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos; count-your-change; trisham; wagglebee; betty boop; D-fendr; boatbums; Mad Dawg
Thank you so very much, dear brother in Christ, for posting this new thread to discuss the Trinity!

My favorite Trinity passages from Scripture with emphasis:

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

In my view, the problem arises whenever we mere mortals attempt to apply the Law of Identity (A=A and not B) to God. Indeed, the LDS doctrine does precisely that and the Trinity is rejected by that religion. And others reject the Trinity on those very logical grounds.

But man is not the measure of God!

The Laws of Logic are part of the creation, not a property or restriction on the Creator of them. We must lay them aside in our meditations on the Names of God.

And again, the Law of Identity does not apply to God.

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. - John 14:7-11

And again,

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:1-8

And again,

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. –I Corinthians 12:3

God's Name is I AM.

14 posted on 08/14/2010 8:53:41 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos; count-your-change; trisham; wagglebee; betty boop; D-fendr; boatbums; Mad Dawg
Oops, I omitted a vital revelation of the Trinity in Revelation 5 which follows the revelation in Chapter 1.

Namely, that the Father is on the throne (Rev 4) and the Son emerges from His midst or bosom and the Spirit extends through Him into the world.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. - Revelation 5:1-6


15 posted on 08/14/2010 9:04:09 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Claud

Six words. They seem so simple.


16 posted on 08/14/2010 9:10:34 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Cronos

Yes as a Christian I believe in the Trinity...

“God in Three Persons Holy Trinity”

From the Hymn Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty...

God the Father, God the Son (the Word, Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit...


17 posted on 08/14/2010 9:12:08 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Whoops I messed up the words of a beautiful Hymn

“God in Three Persons BLESSED Trinity”

From the Hymn Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty...


18 posted on 08/14/2010 9:15:47 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Alamo-Girl

Thank you, Alamo-Girl!


19 posted on 08/14/2010 9:17:20 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: Salvation

Thank you, Salvation!


20 posted on 08/14/2010 9:18:24 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham
You're quite welcome, dear sister in Christ!
21 posted on 08/14/2010 9:19:47 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: webboy45
ok, but then what answer would you have to:
1. Jesus saying to baptise in the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and not in the nameS of .. or in the name of the Father and the name of the Son and the....?

2. If there are three personages -- are these 3 separate gods or ...?
22 posted on 08/14/2010 9:37:24 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Olog-hai; count-your-change; Mad Dawg; Alamo-Girl; Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool
All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).

Psalm 82:6
"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
John 10:34
34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
Deuteronomy 14:1
1 You are the children of the LORD your God. Do not cut yourselves or shave the front of your heads for the dead, 2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.
Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
John 4:24
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Interesting set of excerpts. Let me read these again. Thank you for your viewpoint
23 posted on 08/14/2010 9:45:24 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Thank you, however, as stated in the first post, this thread is for those of our fellow FR folk who either do not believe in the Trinity or are confused.

In other threads too often we say "ok, you don't even believe in the Trinity, why are you butting in", but here they can discuss with us in a civilised manner and we can explain our viewpoint and so can they.
24 posted on 08/14/2010 9:49:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Cronos

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

But you made your thread “ecumenical”

????????????????????????????


25 posted on 08/14/2010 9:52:38 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Cronos
Everyone go dust off your copy of "Theology and Sanity".

You do have a copy of "Theology and Sanity" don't you?

Well, no worries, it's all over the internet. The first few paragraphs from Chapter six:

----------
THE notion is unfortunately widespread that the mystery of the Blessed Trinity is a mystery of mathematics, that is to say, of how one can equal three. The plain Christian accepts the doctrine of the Trinity; the "advanced" Christian rejects it; but too often what is being accepted by the one and rejected by the other is that one equals three.

The believer argues that God has said it, therefore it must be true; the rejecter argues that it cannot be true, therefore God has not said it. A learned non-Catholic divine, being asked if he believed in the Trinity, answered: "I must confess that the arithmetical aspect of the Deity does not greatly interest me"; and if the learned can think that there is some question of arithmetic involved, the ordinary man can hardly be expected to know any better.

Consider what happens when a believer in the doctrine is suddenly called upon to explain it - and note that unless he is forced to, he will not talk about it at all: there is no likelihood of his being so much in love with the principal doctrine of his Faith that he will WANT to tell people about it. Anyhow, here he is: he has been challenged, and must say something. The dialogue runs something like this:
BELIEVER: "Well, you see, there are three persons in one nature."
QUESTIONER: "Tell me more."
BELIEVER: "Well, there is God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Ghost."
QUESTIONER: "Ah, I see, three Gods."
BELIEVER (shocked): "Oh no. Only one God."
QUESTIONER: "But you said three:

you called the Father God. That makes 1;
and you called the Son God - 2;
and you called the Holy Ghost God - 3."
Here the dialogue form breaks down. From the believer's mouth there emerges what can only be called a soup of words, sentences that begin and do not end, words that change into something else halfway. This goes on for a longer or shorter time. But finally there comes something like: "Thus, you see, three is one and one is three." The questioner not unnaturally retorts that three is not one, nor one three. Then comes the believer's great moment. With his eyes fairly gleaming he cries: "Ah, that is the mystery. You have to have faith."

Now it is true that the doctrine of the Blessed Trinity is a mystery, and that we can know it only by faith. But what we have just been hearing is not the mystery of the Trinity, it is not the mystery of anything, it is wretched nonsense. It may be heroic faith to believe it, like the man who

Wished there were four of 'em
That he might believe more of 'em;
or it may be total intellectual unconcern? God has revealed certain things about Himself, we accept the fact that He has done so, but find in ourselves no particular inclination to follow it up. God has told us that He is three persons in one Divine nature, and we say "quite so," and proceed to think of other matters - last week's Retreat or next week's Confession or Lent or Lourdes or the Church's social teaching or foreign missions. All these are vital things, but compared with God Himself, they are as nothing: and the Trinity is God Himself. These other things must be thought about, but to think about them exclusively and about the Trinity not at all is plain folly. And not only folly, but a kind of insensitiveness, almost a callousness, to the love of God. For the doctrine of the Trinity is the inner, the innermost, life of God, His profoundest secret. He did not have to reveal it to us. We could have been saved without knowing that ultimate truth. In the strictest sense it is His business, not ours. He revealed it to us because He loves men and so wants not only to be served by them, but truly known by them. It is the surest mark of love to want to be known. The revelation of the Trinity was in one sense a more certain proof even than Calvary that God loves men. To accept it politely and think no more of it is an insensitiveness beyond comprehension in men who quite certainly love God: as many certainly do who could give no better statement of the doctrine than the believer in the model dialogue we have just been considering.

How did we reach this curious travesty of the supreme truth about God? The short statement of the doctrine is, as we have all heard all our lives, that there are three PERSONS in one NATURE. But if we attach no meaning to the word PERSON, and no meaning to the word NATURE, then both the nouns have dropped out of our definition, and we are left only with the numbers three and one, and get along as best we can with these. Let us agree that there may be more in the mind of the believer than he manages to get said: but the things that do get said give a pretty strong impression that his notion of the Trinity is simply a travesty. It does him no positive harm provided he does not look at it too closely; but it sheds no light in his own soul: and his statement of it, when he is driven to make a statement, might very well extinguish such flickering as there may be in others. The Catholic whose faith is wavering might well have it blown out altogether by such an explanation of the Trinity as some fellow Catholic of stronger faith might feel moved to give: and no one coming fresh to the study of God would be much encouraged.

----------

It may be a wall of text, but it's a great wall of text.

26 posted on 08/14/2010 10:11:00 AM PDT by Legatus
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To: Legatus

Everyone go dust off your copy of “Theology and Sanity”.
__________________________________________________

Ans why wouldnt “Everyone (just) go dust off your copy of (The Bible)” ???

Why would anyone lo0ok in a secular book for info on God ???

From the Word of God, the Bible...

For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7


27 posted on 08/14/2010 10:24:52 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Cronos; Olog-hai; count-your-change; betty boop; Mad Dawg; Dr. Eckleburg; Iscool; ...
Thank you for pinging me to the challenge!

Just like time, space, matter/energy and physical laws are not restrictions on or properties of the Creator of them - the laws of logic are not restrictions on or properties of the Creator of them.

Man is not the measure of God.

We Christians are the adopted children of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. – John 1:12-13

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together. – Romans 8:15-17

We are His adopted children not as separate identities (Law of Logic: A=A and not B) - but because we are alive IN HIM.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:9

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20

For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also [is] Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. - I Cor 12:12-14

That the Spirit indwells each and every Christian does not mean that He breaks into as many parts as there are Christians. He is still One.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Corinthians 2:14

Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of the Seven Spirits of God it does not mean that the Spirit is broken into seven separate identities. He is still One.

And when Scriptures speaks of the Father and Son, it does not mean that God is broken into separate identities.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. - John 1:18

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

And again,

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God [El Shaddai]; walk before me, and be thou perfect. - Genesis 17:1

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. – Exodus 3:14

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

As soon then as he had said unto them, I am [he], they went backward, and fell to the ground. – John 18:6

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. - Revelation 1:8

Man is not the measure of God.

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

28 posted on 08/14/2010 10:31:55 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cronos
John 10:30 (I and the Father are one)is often cited as a support for the trinity doctrine but the question is, HOW are they one?

Jesus prayed at John 17:20-22 that his followers would one just as he and the Father were one, that they would be in union with him and he in union with the Father.
So How are we to understand John 10:30? As part of a trinitarian formula? No, rather that Jesus and his father acted and spoke as one, in unison of thought and purpose just as he prayed for his followers to be one.

In fact Jesus says at John 14:28 that his father is greater than he.

29 posted on 08/14/2010 10:36:47 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Tennessee Nana
:) yes, I hoped we could keep it civil unlike an open thread :)

No comments here on whatever "denomination" or "group", just simple debate on the Trinity will be a very welcome thread for all :)
30 posted on 08/14/2010 10:42:36 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Tennessee Nana; Olog-hai; count-your-change; webboy45
1 John 5:7
And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.
Thank you TN --> that is a very precise statement from scripture.

CYC, Olog, webboy --> this excerpt from scripture does indicate a Trinity, correct?
31 posted on 08/14/2010 10:52:35 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: count-your-change; Alamo-Girl
Good points -- reading through just John 17:20-22, John 10:30 is probably the basis of the thought that we are all of God or the basis of those who believe that there are no separate "persons" in th Godhead.
32 posted on 08/14/2010 10:56:38 AM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Frank Sheed was, among other things, what we would call a street preacher. "Theology and Sanity" is a compilation of a lot of what he preached in Hyde Park, London during the first half of the 20th century.

Unfortunately people who deny the doctrine of the Trinity also "(just) go dust off your copy of (The Bible)" and arrive at different conclusions believing themselves led by the Holy Ghost. Therefore it is sometimes useful to expound on the Sacred Scriptures, Frank Sheed does a bang up job of doing exactly that.

I'm sorry you didn't gain any insight into what Sheed called "the inner, the innermost, life of God, His profoundest secret" from the excerpt I posted. His grasp on the subject is so much greater than mine, I can't imagine what it must be like to tower over him. Good for you, but it must be dreadful having to interact with people who think Sheed was profound. I think it must be something like the way I feel after 10 straight hours with my younger children: "OK, this was fun but my brain is melting down find me some grownups."

33 posted on 08/14/2010 11:22:13 AM PDT by Legatus
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To: Legatus

Joey Smith thought he towered over not only you and the Bible but also Frank Sheed when it comes to knowing better than the Bible teaches about the attributes of God...

You might complain to the mormons...


34 posted on 08/14/2010 11:28:16 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Cronos

Apologies to Cronos

For me the Word of God, the Bible, is the final word on the Trinity...

or anything else about God...

No mere man can improve on the Word of God...

No matter how “revered” he is...

Not Frank Sheed ...

Not Joey Smith ...

Not Mohammad...

I have drawn the line in the sand...


35 posted on 08/14/2010 11:32:58 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana

Well there ya go. I thought it might add something productive to the discussion. I had no idea it would be regarded as “fancy book learnin” or whatever. I apologize unreservedly.


36 posted on 08/14/2010 11:40:31 AM PDT by Legatus
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To: trisham

You’re so welcome. Enjoy!


37 posted on 08/14/2010 11:49:29 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos
To me, these verses from the Gospel of Matthew signify and validify the Trinity in the Words of Jesus Christ himself!

Matthew
Chapter 28
 
16
8 The eleven 9 disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them.
17
10 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted.
18
11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19
Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20
teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
 
 
and the pertinent footnotes:
 

8 [16-20] This climactic scene has been called a "proleptic parousia," for it gives a foretaste of the final glorious coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 26:64). Then his triumph will be manifest to all; now it is revealed only to the disciples, who are commissioned to announce it to all nations and bring them to belief in Jesus and obedience to his commandments.

9 [16] The eleven: the number recalls the tragic defection of Judas Iscariot. To the mountain . . . ordered them: since the message to the disciples was simply that they were to go to Galilee (Matthew 28:10), some think that the mountain comes from a tradition of the message known to Matthew and alluded to here. For the significance of the mountain, see the note on Matthew 17:1.

10 [17] But they doubted: the Greek can also be translated, "but some doubted." The verb occurs elsewhere in the New Testament only in Matthew 14:31 where it is associated with Peter's being of "little faith." For the meaning of that designation, see the note on Matthew 6:30.

11 [18] All power . . . me: the Greek word here translated power is the same as that found in the LXX translation of Daniel 7:13-14 where one "like a son of man" is given power and an everlasting kingdom by God. The risen Jesus here claims universal power, i.e., in heaven and on earth.

12 [19] Therefore: since universal power belongs to the risen Jesus (Matthew 28:18), he gives the eleven a mission that is universal. They are to make disciples of all nations. While all nations is understood by some scholars as referring only to all Gentiles, it is probable that it included the Jews as well. Baptizing them: baptism is the means of entrance into the community of the risen one, the Church. In the name of the Father . . . holy Spirit: this is perhaps the clearest expression in the New Testament of trinitarian belief. It may have been the baptismal formula of Matthew's church, but primarily it designates the effect of baptism, the union of the one baptized with the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

13 [20] All that I have commanded you: the moral teaching found in this gospel, preeminently that of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7). The commandments of Jesus are the standard of Christian conduct, not the Mosaic law as such, even though some of the Mosaic commandments have now been invested with the authority of Jesus. Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus' real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative; see the note on Matthew 1:23. End of the age: see the notes on Matthew 13:39 and Matthew 24:3.


38 posted on 08/14/2010 11:58:04 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: count-your-change
Mar 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

God created everything...Jesus created everything...

It was revealed by the God to the Apostles who revealed it to us hundreds of years before the Catholic church could figure it out, or accept it...

God never said to understand it...He would just like us to believe it...

So I don't understand it, but I believe it...I don't understand all that I know...

39 posted on 08/14/2010 12:52:05 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Cronos
“CYC, Olog, webboy —> this excerpt from scripture does indicate a Trinity, correct?”

Not correct. This is not part of Scripture. It's a later addition by someone other than John.

“That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.

(A) EXTERNAL EVIDENCE. (1) The passage is absent from every known Greek manuscript except eight, and these contain the passage in what appears to be a translation from a late recension of the Latin Vulgate.”

A TEXTUAL COMMENTARY ON THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT second ed. by Bruce M. Metzger page 647.

Metzger then list the eight manuscripts and further evidence that the passage is not part of John's writing.

How the passage might have entered the Latin Vulgate is unstated.

40 posted on 08/14/2010 12:57:09 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Salvation
Behold, I am with you always: the promise of Jesus' real though invisible presence echoes the name Emmanuel given to him in the infancy narrative;

But Jesus is NOT with us always...Jesus is seated in Heaven alongside the Father...

However, the Holy Spirit is with us always...Jesus says we are filled with the Holy Spirit...And yet Jesus says we are in Him and He is in us...

One doesn't have to go too far down this road to realize that Jesus is speaking of the Trinity...

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to take His place since Jesus would be gone, but then Jesus says He is here with us...

We don't need to understand it...No one understands it...Just believe it...

41 posted on 08/14/2010 1:03:51 PM PDT by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: count-your-change
In fact Jesus says at John 14:28 that his father is greater than he.

From the so-called Athanasian Creed:

33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

I do not post this to say that it's right, but merely to say that Trinitarian theology thinks it has dal with the "The Father is greater than I," saying.

42 posted on 08/14/2010 1:10:19 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Cronos

It’s not “just” John 17 or 10. Rather Jesus is always shown in the subordinate position to the Father as in John 5:19, “....the son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing.” (RS)


43 posted on 08/14/2010 1:11:32 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Iscool

**But Jesus is NOT with us always...Jesus is seated in Heaven alongside the Father...**

So sorry that you do not give the qualities of God to be with every person at any time to Jesus.

Prayers for you.

You are denying that Christ is God when you say that aren’t you?


44 posted on 08/14/2010 1:13:10 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Mad Dawg
Yes, The Athanasian Creed. As the Catholic Encyclopedia describes it,

“One of the symbols of the Faith approved by the Church and given a place in her liturgy, is a short, clear exposition of the doctrines of the Trinity and the Incarnation, with a passing reference to several other dogmas.”

Sound like doublespeak. Both hot and cold, both square and round, up and down.

45 posted on 08/14/2010 1:29:17 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change; Alamo-Girl
Sound like doublespeak. Both hot and cold, both square and round, up and down.

I can certainly understand getting that impression. I sometimes have a similar reaction to the Chalcedonian definition: One person, two natures -- fine, what does THAT mean?

Our side would say that the inadequacy is not that the dogma is wrong, but rather that the reality does not submit to the categories of mind . So what you end up -- as I see it -- is some formulas of expression which (we think) you hagve to maintain to be right about what's going on. If you overstress the inferiority, you fail to remain consisten with Thomas's exclamation, "My Lord and my God!" (or you imply more than one god, also a FAIL) If you do not mention the inferiority, you fail to account for the statement you quoted, and you miss the mystery of the Incarnation - Creator in creation, the greater in the less -- the inside bigger than the outside.

So -- again, as we see it -- you are stuck with, "in this way equal to, in that way less than. Now get me an aspirin, my head hurts." There is some hint of this in our everyday lives. It is my joy that my daughter is now a young woman. On the other hand, my grief was great when she left home to go ACT like a young woman. I really loved having her around. Joy and grief sometimes go hand in hand, and nobody accuses the proud and weeping parent of doublespeak.

46 posted on 08/14/2010 2:03:30 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Iscool

And not only that but Jesus also illustrated that the Holy Ghost is God, is part of the Trinity and connected to both God the Father and God the Son, the Word, Jesus, when He said,

But when He, the Spirit of Truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on His own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13

So the Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Truth...and yet Jesus is TRUTH...

Jesus said to us all, “I am the Way, the TRUTH John 14:6

so Jesus and the Holy Ghost are both TRUTH, are both equal parts of the Trinity...

He will not speak on His own...

He is not separate and operating separate away from God the Father and God the Son...The Holy Ghost is God...

He will speak only what He hears...

He speaks only what He has ever heard what He has ever known... He is God and speaks only what God has to say...The Holy Ghost is not separate from God the Father and God the Son...

He will tell you what is yet to come.

Call unto me and I will answer thee and show you great and mighty things... Jeremiah 33:3

The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit has always been here...

The Third Person of the Trinity...


47 posted on 08/14/2010 2:18:18 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Tennessee Nana; Legatus; Olog-hai
Now, the non-Trinitarians on this thread in post #7 gave examples from the scriptures explaining why they did not believe in the Trinity. You can answer them from scripture or outside. Thank you!
All this supposition contradicts a verse from Psalm 82 (verse 6) that Jesus quotes in John 10:34. For reinforcement of those verses, see Deuteronomy 14:1. There is also Romans 8:29, where Jesus is described as "the firstborn among many brethren". How many sons does the Father intend to bring to birth, then? The agent of change is cited as the Holy Spirit, which is a part of God (see John 4:24).
48 posted on 08/14/2010 3:14:09 PM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: count-your-change; Tennessee Nana; Olog-hai; webboy45; Legatus
Not correct. This is not part of Scripture. It's a later addition by someone other than John.

My mistake -- I forgot that that was the Comma Johanneum
49 posted on 08/14/2010 3:16:56 PM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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To: count-your-change

so then, who do you say Christ was? He was definitely not just a man, right?


50 posted on 08/14/2010 3:18:29 PM PDT by Cronos (Omnia mutantur, nihil interit. "Allah": Satan's current status)
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