Saul And The Charismatics...

http://billrandles.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/saul-and-the-charismatics/ ^ | 02-14-12 | Bill Randles

[pastorbillrandles]

And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled. And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.(I Samuel 28:5-7)

I have no problem believing that God sovereignly granted revival in the 1960′s -70′s, renewing faith in the reality of Jesus, introducing church people to Jesus for the first time, and baptizing multitudes from all walks of life, and over the spectrum of denominations in the Holy Ghost. The movement became known as the Charismatic renewal.

Why not? Didn’t He promise us that …

… it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:(Acts 2:17-18)

I myself came to Christ at the end of the 1970′s, in a charismatic church. But the critical question of any movement is not one of the beginning, but of the end…how does it end?

Of course in one sense the Charismatic movement never ends, for it didn’t begin in the 1960′s nor at Azusa street, but in Jerusalem. It shall never end, being established by Jesus, clothed in the Holy Spirit and known as the church.

But the charismatic movement as a historical reality, that sovereign move of God of 40 years ago,which turned so many to Jesus and the Spirit in a godless day, has been co-opted by it’s “leaders” and seems to be going the way of King Saul.

Saul seriously disobeyed God at several key points in his life, doing what he “felt” was right, rather than adhering to the Word of God. He wouldn’t go by the Word, but by “feelings”. God called that rebellion and even “witchcraft”,

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.(I Samuel 15:22-23)

One of the problems with the Charismatic movement, was that it was beset with a variety of false teachers. Oral Roberts, with his seed faith, prosperity teaching. New Thought influenced teachers such as Kenneth Hagin and Copeland, who taught that we are all “little gods”, and could create our own reality by our words.

Who can forget the “deliverance movement” which was basically superstitious hysteria, but brought millions into bondage? How about the attempt by some to bring about order, imposing the cultic and oppressive “shepherding movement”?

False teaching imposes a terrible toll, it breaks down the defenses and corrupts the soul. Doctrine, good or bad, is not insignificant, it is of critical importance.

The Prophetic movement heralded by the false Kansas City Prophets and John Wimber, promoted experience over doctrine, and induced millions into “spiritual drunkenness” and gnostic mysticism.

These are just a sampling of the influences which flooded into the wake of millions of people coming to a living faith in Jesus and an awareness of the Holy Spirit. Like an accumulation of toxins in a body they have had an eroding effect on the church.

Time fails me to go into the other excesses such as the unbiblical ecumenism, the Toronto and Pensacola movements, neo apostles and prophets, and spiritual warfare.

The common theme of all of these excesses is that the charismatics have always been strongly urged not to judge! Discernment has been ridiculed and criticized! These things have taken a toll.

The charismatic movement is in danger of ending like Saul…

At the end of Saul’s life, he went into the occult. God wasn’t speaking to him anymore. Samuel was by now dead, although Saul consistently ignored him whilst alive. Saul had chased David away. killed the priests and found himself in real trouble.

And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

He who had once purged the land of witches and wizards, now sought out a witch, that he might commune with the now dead Samuel!

Benny Hinn is just one Charismatic leader who has testified of his own necromancy,(communication with the dead). He tells os his frequent visits to Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb, to get an impartation of “her anointing”!

“One of the strangest experiences I had a few years ago [was] visiting Aimee’s tomb in California. This Thursday I’m on TBN. Friday I am gonna go and visit Kathryn Kuhlman’s tomb. It’s close by Aimee’s in Forest Lawn Cemetery. I’ve been there once already and every so often I like to go and pay my respects ‘cause this great woman of God has touched my life. And that grave, uh, where she’s buried is closed, they built walls around it. You can’t get in without a key and I’m one of the very few people who can get in. But I’ll never forget when I saw Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredibly dramatic. She was such a lady that her tomb has seven-foot angels bowing on each side of her tomb with a gold chain around it. As—as incredible as it is that someone would die with angels bowing on each side of her grave, I felt a terrific anointing when I was there. I actually, I—I, hear this, I trembled when I visited Aimee’s tomb. I was shaking all over. God’s power came all over me. … I believe the anointing has lingered over Aimee’s body. I know this may be shocking to you. … And I’m going to take David [Palmquist] and Kent [Mattox] and Sheryl [Palmquist] this week. They’re gonna come with me. You—you—you gonna feel the anointing at Aimee’s tomb. It’s incredible. And Kathryn’s. It’s amazing. I’ve heard of people healed when they visited that tomb. They were totally healed by God’s power. You say, ‘What a crazy thing.’ Brother, there’s things we’ll never understand. Are you all hearing me?”11Benny Hinn sermon, Double Portion Anointing, Part #3, Orlando Christian Center, Orlando, Fla., April 7, 1991. From the series, Holy Ghost Invasion. TV#309, tape on file.

Familiarity with the Word of God would deliver Hinn’s followers, for God says He hates the sin of necromancy. Isaiah tells us that those who seek anything from the dead have no light in them,

When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? Consult God’s instruction and the testimony of warning. If anyone does not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn(Isaiah 8:9-12)

The flavor of the day in Charismatic circles is Bethel church in Redding California, headed by a Word Faith, Prophetic movement, pastor , Bill Johnson. At His Bethel School of ministry, he teaches students to “honor the Generals of revival”, that is leaders such as Smith Wigglesworth, Aimee Semple Mcpherson, Evan Roberts, and others.

“Honoring” them to Johnson means compiling a vast collection of their books and artifacts,and opening a “generals library” for charismatics to visit. But like Hinn, Johnson also believes in visiting their tombs, and literally “soaking” the “anointing” by being in the presence of their graves.

Bethel Students “Soaking Anointing” Off of Tombs !

Those who discern are seeing countless other evidences that like Saul, the Charismatic movement has gone into the occult, for false prophecy, dream interpretation, necromancy,spiritual drunkenness are all characteristics, not of christian spirituality but “the delusion”, a revival of deceiving spirits that Paul warned about, as a consequence of rejection of the Word of God.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.( 2 Thess 2:8-12)

[CynicalBear]

Would you also agree that God as each of us at different levels of growth and understanding and that excoriating of belittling others who see differently may be counter to what God has prepared that person for?

[caww]

Mac Arthur is well known and respected among clergy as well as the evangelical community for his writings as well as commentaries and books.....His history speaks for itself....He has been acknowledged by Christianity Today as 'one of the most influential preachers of his time',... and was a frequent guest on the Larry King Live TV talk show as a representative of 'an evangelical Christian perspective.'

Further...MacArthur has authored or edited more than 150 books, most notably the MacArthur Study Bible, which has sold more than 1 million copies and 'received a Gold Medallion Book Award'. Other best-selling books include his 'MacArthur New Testament Commentary Series' (more than 1 million copies), Twelve Ordinary Men, (more than 500,000 copies),[6] and the children's book A Faith to Grow On, which garnered an 'ECPA Christian Book Award'.

I have already determined my position on the Charismatic movement years ago and that was spending time and effort to come to the truth thru Gods word. However I am pleased to see well respected and established Authors are in agreement...and further... they often times sift thru this complicated and confusing topic, of tongues and spiritual gifts, and express it far better than I...therefore I will use their writings.

If the Pentecostals/Charismatics weren't all over the map in what they believe, and it various substantially, on this topic then it would not be such a complicated confusing topic. So I have no problem using an authors material on these issues...further the scriptures have already been posted many times on this thread for any to reference easily.

So there's nothing "farce" about it.... And I do agree with MacArthur in so far as I have read on his take on tongues etc. And just for clarity he never says he doesn't believe in God healing. He certainly does...and so do I. But not as it's being pushed today.

Most people have been healed throughout their life in one form or another....and we can all give God the Glory for the advances in medicine...and the skilled hands of Dr's and Physicians , Like Luke, whom God has given us.

As a side note...very interesting that many of the well known healers to date suffer medical problems throughout their life...in many cases hidden from the public for many years.

[Quix]

. . . may be . . .

Far from a given certainty.

[metmom]

That’s an interesting question.

I’d say that . . .

Given Mark 16:16-18 . . .

That if some of those signs don’t follow a man or woman of God EVER . . . then they are either not in right standing with God or are living far below their inheritance and calling in God . . . and thereby achieving far less for The Kingdom than they might otherwise be accomplishing by His Grace and giftings.

. . . or perhaps God has them in a long dark night of the soul . . .

or . . . a desert experience . . . or some sort of mysterious period of being on a sabbatical or “on the shelf” for whatever reason.

OK, let's start with verse 16.

Mark 16:15-18 15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Starting with verse 16, do you believe you have to be baptized to be saved. It DOES say that. And while most of pentecostal theology likes to quote verse 17 about speaking in tongues and healing, they also tend to ignore verse 18. Isn't that kind of cherry picking what other denominations are criticized for when they do it to support their doctrines?

If we're going to take parts of it literally, then in proper interpretation, the whole PASSAGE needs to be interpreted in a consistent manner.

So where is the charismatic movement on drinking deadly poison and handling snakes? Why don't we see them advocating THAT? Why is it that when you think that some of those signs should follow, why is it that people always mean tongues and healings?

Or is it only the safe signs and wonders they prefer?

You want demonstrations of faith? Does it take more faith to lay hands on someone and pray for them or drink deadly poison and believe it won't harm you?

Where are all the people lining up to do THAT?

[Quix]

No way.

McArthur doesn’t appear to have a clue about tongues etc.

The hubby of a former pastor’s sister . . . AoG now pastoring a non-denominational Charismatic church—

is on McArthur’s staff.

The mentality infused in that staff is . . . reportedly I understand it . . . to be . . . far from wonderful or admirable . . . and not just on that topic.

McArthur will have a lot to answer for on those topics.

[smvoice]

Correct me if I’m wrong, QUix, but didn’t you say on another post here that that would be “tempting God” to drink deadly poison or handle snakes? Even though you referred to some people you knew, or heard about, who had done both?

[caww]

Excellent post and right on Boatbums....thank you for that clarity. It needs to be stated often as there was a purpose to their work...and they never lost sight of that purpose ..the Gospel Message first and formost...all which followed was to confirm that.

[CynicalBear]

>> Far from a given certainty.<<

Momma always said “when in doubt, don’t”.

[Quix]

Perhaps when I see evidence of

&/or feel

heard much at all (NOT necessarily AGREED WITH—HEARD)—

I’ll have more confidence about trying to carry forth a more genuine dialogue.

[metmom]

That if some of those signs don’t follow a man or woman of God EVER . . . then they are either not in right standing with God or are living far below their inheritance and calling in God . . . and thereby achieving far less for The Kingdom than they might otherwise be accomplishing by His Grace and giftings.

Matthew 25:31-40 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’

37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

So, who's doing more for the kingdom? The person with signs and wonders? Or the people who do like Jesus did who went about doing good, who minister to people to help meet their needs and maybe entertain angels unawares?

[Quix]

As a side note...very interesting that many of the well known healers to date suffer medical problems throughout their life...in many cases hidden from the public for many years.

EVIDENTLY . . .

LIKE

drum roll . . .

ST PAUL.

IMPRESSIVE.

[caww]

And you wonder why it’s getting far too often difficult to take you seriously when your response to a well presented post is laughable. There was nothing in that post laughable.

[Quix]

If the Pentecostals/Charismatics weren't all over the map in what they believe, and it various substantially, on this topic then it would not be such a complicated confusing topic.

If the

--RC's
--Calvinists
--Baptists
--Unitarians
--Episcopalians
--Methodists
--Non-denominationalists
--Interdenominationalists
. . .

weren't all over the map in what they believe, and it various substantially, on LOTS of topics, in addition to this one, then it would not be such a complicated confusing 'Christian reality.'

[metmom]

Reading your assertions one way could indicate that Paul lied or was an idiot or simply wrong about the distinctions and giftings of different people because . . . according to one way of reading your assertions, God just lowered the Heavenly shotgun and blasted everyone equally.

I have actually heard it preached out of pentecostal/charismatic pulpits more than once by more than one pastor, that all the gifts are available to every believers, sometimes all at once, sometimes at varying times in their lives. And this in direct contradiction of the clear, plain teaching of 1 Corinthians 12.

[Quix]

Wellllllll, goodness . . .

if you’re in doubt about such,

then, obviously,

don’t!

[boatbums]

You know who you are in Christ. And we know sickness is not from God

I think you are missing the whole point of what Metmom, caww and I are trying to say here. There is a misconception about the so-called "sign" gifts and their reality in today's world. We had been discussing "tongues" and the false use and snooty attitude some have who claim to have been gifted with that particular gift. Now we are talking about the person who claims to have the gift of healing. Metmom's experiences within Pentecostal and Charismatic churches WRT her specific malady have been disappointing precisely because of the misuse and false teachings about that gift.

When Jesus healed people, he did so because of their faith in HIM - as the Messiah - and that resulted in his healing of their physical as well as their spiritual needs. Today, we have men and women making a lot of money off of claiming to have this same power that Jesus gave to the disciples as they went about establishing the church and these miracles were confirmations of the authority of the Gospel they preached. People today, such as Benny Hinn, put on these elaborate shows and productions to get people to respond to their pleadings for money - whereas the disciples NEVER healed for that reason. Both Metmom and I have serious physical problems that no amount of prayer, following the right Scriptural directions and huge amounts of faith have so far alleviated. Thousands of people have NOT been healed by these "faith-healers" and leave dejected and lost because they were PROMISED an experience just like in Jesus' days here.

For someone to come along and say things such as "sickness is not from God" ergo the devil is doing this to you and God wants everyone released from the devil's afflictions so therefore something is missing in YOU if you don't have healing, misses a few vital points. They are:

1. God sometimes DOES cause sickness.

2. God uses sickness to bring about his plan.

3. God does not always take away sickness but has a much higher purpose in it remaining.

4. God is glorified as much, if not more, when sickness remains.

Paul, after asking the Lord three time to heal him and not having it, learned that in whatever state he was therewith to be content and that God's grace is sufficient for him. When he was weak, God's strength was magnified.

So, I disagree that anyone has that gift of healing sign gift today for the same reason I reject that people speak in tongues. BUT, I do agree that God is able to do ALL things and nothing is impossible for him. God DOES sometimes heal and sometimes he does NOT heal and regardless of whether I am healed in this life or I must wait for my glorified, perfect body in heaven, I have learned to trust in God's grace to see me through. It is God who heals me spiritually and that is the more important.

[Quix]

You’re WRONG.

I was referring to folks who, like St Paul,

were ACCIDENTALLY bitten by poisonous snakes to no effect;

drank dangerous to deadly stuff accidentally, unknowingly, without harmful effect. In some cases, witch-doctors etc. trying to poison missionaries without the missionaries knowing it.

I was NOT talking about folks deliberately playing with poisonous snakes or deliberately knowingly drinking poison to prove something absurdly.

Thanks for illustrating yet again how seemingly impossible it is to understand the relatively simple English that I write and take it for face value in a meaningful authentic dialogue sort of fashion.

[caww]

But it IS this one we are discussing.

[metmom]

Would you also agree that God as each of us at different levels of growth and understanding and that excoriating of belittling others who see differently may be counter to what God has prepared that person for?

Since Quix weaseled out of answering that one, how about this?

Would you also agree that God has each of us at different levels of growth and understanding and that excoriating of belittling others who see differently makes you a respecter of person's who is making value judgements about others based on outward appearances instead of the heart as God sees?

And that individual believers answer to God and God alone for their walk with HIM, as in Romans 14? Or that the person being excoriated may not be READY to hear what they are being shredded for or have the maturity to handle that kind of unChristlike criticism properly?

Somehow I don't see that asking people to exercise some discernment and apply Biblical principles and use caution in spiritual matters is demonic, unbiblical, or rock throwing.

I think the church would be far better off being a little more conservative and skeptical before blindly accepting everything that comes down the pike just because someone else claims it's from God. Only the gullible and naive would believe everything they hear without exercising enough discernment to check it out.

[presently no screen name]

mediator? With your understanding you could say intercessors in prayer are mediators, also, which they aren’t.

Someone speaking in tongues for themselves is between THEM
and GOD! Praying when you have no idea what/how to pray.