Unbelief, the Opiate of the Masses

Here's a good site on eternal assurance

https://www.gracecoach.org/post/can-a-christian-lose-their-salvation

in your verse- it is talking about a person living in sin, and endangering their lives by their actions- God will allow folks to do what they wish- and He warns us over and over that if we continue in sins, we may very well end out lives prematurely- that passage you mentioned again uses the word for life, not soul- it was interpreted as soul, but the word used means life-

Another important point about why that verse means life and not soul- Souls do not die- we can lose our lives, but never our souls- they live in in one place or the other-

Here is another link talking about this very thing

http://oncesaved.org/james-520-explained-how-our-eternal-salvation-can-never-be-lost

The key to understanding that is that we can not save people’s souls- look at the verse- it says “whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul”. We don’t save people- we have no power to save their souls-

Where do you see in this verse that it says “man” is who saves the Soul? …. The Bible would not say that- the verse would be in error IF it implied that. You seem to be disqualifying the verse because of an interpretation you are making… So no, the verse never intends that “man” WILL saves souls…

Rather that the wanderers Soul is “saved” ONCE he is brought back into believing in the Truth –again. The brethren just assist in that turn around... but the Spirit must reclaim any wayward soul.

The outcome of this verse means…

(Any) among you – those who HAVE
BEEN saved- (with the Truth)

That those who wander away form that Truth - turn away from God- as sinners– (Leaving the Truth -possibly permanently) UNSAVED

Can be brought back from His error of his way - By which his Soul is saved from death... (the Operative words being WILL SAVE from – and obviously not meaning saving ones physical life-
as we don’t die physically when we turn away from God by sinning…usually) - but will save... doesn't mean immediately either...

And the verse does not imply a limitation on how many times a sinner can be brought back to the Truth- in this saving manner.

Another key to understanding the Eternal security of Salvation is that When a person is saved- they are given “Eternal Life”- Would be kind of cruel to suggest that the word “Eternal” means “only as long as” someone toes the line- When you are saved- you pass from death unto life- unto eternal life

Well, I guess it would be cruel if you believed in not losing your salvation. But again, you're pre-supposing that you get to call yourself eternally saved forever. It's not in the Bible. Jesus never taught that way as the moderns now interpret it. And logic tells you - if something so important such as Guaranteed Eternal Salvation existed- it would be clearly stated in Scripture in the Bible.. AND OFTEN- without having to do the interpreting Game to decode a meaning...
Furthermore, if you understand Salvation as a life process… you can understand John 15 better:

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love.
10 IF you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete.

DOES THIS sound like absolute guarantee of Salvation from John? No it does not. It IS CONDITIONAL…
“IF YOU KEEP my Commandments… you will remain….
If you DON'T keep God's commandments, do you still remain? I don’t think so… once you are in Christ you get to remain in him... But if you do not obey the commandments...you will NOT REMAIN in Christ. Now maybe you will say you are still saved...
But I don't think so.
Also The word for Soul in this verse (psuche) is “Life”- and doesn’t mean spirit or soul in the sense of the eternal soul- Wherever it is used it mean the life of a body which is subject to death-

Strongs Greek shows the Bible using psuche 102 times… yes sometimes physical…but in our verse Ja 5:20 Strong’s assigns it to spiritual.
I guess anyone can make it say what they want... but then the belief is in their interpretive abstract assent- and away from the substance of the word made Flesh...incarnate Flesh.

you asked for verses that give assurance, i gave them to you- Christ never loses actual souls that are given to him by the father- if he did, the bible would be a lie-

“[28] I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

Strong assigns “Spirit” to the word psuche- Spirit is not the soul- Spirit is what makes us us- it is out life- Here is the definition from the word:

“The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.”

““Jehovah God formed man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.””

The “Breath of life” Is The Spirit that is given by God- the Hebrew Word is Neshamah Meaning “Spirit”

[[pre-supposing that you get to call yourself eternally saved forever. It’s not in the Bible]]

It is in the bible- botrh as direct proclamations, and infered as in the explanation about Christ never losing any of His flock- IF it is possible for a saved person to lose hteir salvaiton, and die immediately and wind up in hell- then the bible is a lie- God specifically proclaimed that NONE of those He gives to Christ will be lost-

[[DOES THIS sound like absolute guarantee of Salvation from John?]]

That verse is not about salvation but remaining in a close relationship with God- We as Christians can walk away from His love and protection- but we are still saved- just as a son can walk away from their parent’s love and protection and still be their son-

John 15 is not about losing salvation- there are many sermons and articles on this fact- it is simply sayign that if a person walks away from God’s love, and is not bearign fruit as a result- they will not be under His love and protection- it doesn’t mean they lose His love though- God will always love them because they are His- The way to remain “UNDER” His love is to keep His commandments (but again this was to the Jews- Whom he had just told that they must Accept Him as Savior in order to ‘abide in Him’- those that don’t will be burned up because they are unsaved- always were- and had no intenion of beign saved- These unsaved were Jews that who took other gods-

Vs 10 is a condition of descipleship, not salvation- just as a son walking away from family is a condition of departure from the family, but not from the blood line-

Your making a lot of assumptions Bob. And yes I know there are thise who say we don't even need to love God to stay "saved" once they are saved- but that's a different religion, a dangerous one.

I know you will say these verse means something else...of course... we get to decide.. but you're just ignoring the obvious...

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you.[g] 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

And;
"He who hears you, hears Me, and he who rejects you, you Rejects Me, AND Rejects the One who sent me"...

Their will be believers, like cutoff branches, who will be gathered up and tossed in the fire...
There will be those who say "Lord, Lord"-
and there will be those Goats in Matt 25....

Assurance, while it works for you, is another religion altogether. And not the one the Holy Spirit has guided since the beginning.

Because that "guaranteed assurance" IS NOT be spelled out- explicitly and absolutely in the Bible - beyond question- without the many cautioning damnation passages... it has to be interpreted with bias. It becomes subjective from that point forward.
Do you really think St. PAUL was intentionally speaking gibberish about "working out his salvation..."? That makes no sense to anyone then if he is already guaranteed saved...
While I see your faith... I dont see how you could think God would allow Christianity to err for centuries like it did...
We are just not that special, no more so than those that came and died before us.

Murphey- I’m not going to go over all the contentious verses in te bible- I d believe we’ve had discussions on this before even- about different verses that seemed to indicate folks could lose their salvation, but which also were taken out of context, or not considered with the original Greek or Hebrew words- which is essential to understanding God’s word-

Briefly on the branches- the section is talkign about the Jews- as mentioned in my last post- it is talking aobut unsaved Jews being cast away and burned- Jews who claimed to be ‘religious’; but who never accepted Christ- It is proven by the verse you posted below which says there will be those who say “Lord Lord” who will go to hell- or be burned up- Those are hte ones Christ spoke of who when i nheaven say “Lord, have we not prophesied in your name?” and Christ says to them “Depart from Me I never knew you”

Note carefully- He said he “NEVER” knew them- in otherwords, they claimed to be Christians, but they Never accepted Him as Savior- they were CINO’s, Christians in name only- ie unsaved- always-

The bible has a great many verses to prove once saved always saved- and therefore any verses that Seem to indicate otherwise Need to be carefully read because God is infallible and can not lie- When He says that Christ will Never lose ANY of those that God gives to Him- He means just that- a Saved person can Never be lost- Ever=- otherwise God is a liar- If a person can go their whole life saved, then make commit a terrible sin and die doing so- and that person is lost- then Gold’s word is false- Man will Always sin- and even one small sin is enough for a man to lose their salvation IF it is possible ot lose salvation because All sin is grievous to God- not just ‘the big sins’ - All sin sent Christ ot the cross- not just ‘the major sins’

My bible tells me that when a person is saved, —NO— man can pluck that person out of God’s hands- and that includes the man or woman themselves- My bible tells me that —NO— soul given to Christ by God will be lost- None- The verses you cited talk about people Christ —NEVER— Knew, not even briefly- when He said Never, He meant Never- they were never saved- and that is who He was speaking to- the unsaved Jews who were ‘religious’ i n their own minds, but were infact worthless branches in need of pruning and burning-

[[And not the one the Holy Spirit has guided since the beginning.]]

You are giving an opinion and frankly a wrong opinion- My bible is full of assurance of Salvation verses-

[[Do you really think St. PAUL was intentionally speaking gibberish about “working out his salvation...”?]]

Wow- ok- just briefly- again- working out does not mean ‘working for’- it means working out the gifts which are given the CHristian - IF we have to maintain our salvation, then God’s gift of salvation is no longer a FREE gift, but an earned reward- and the bible tells us many times that salvation is never earned- it is given freely- Lest any man should boast- IF we have to maintain our own salvatio n through diligent Christian works and deeds- then we have occasion to boast that WE are keeping our own salvation, and those that don’t lose their salvation (again, making God out ot be a liar when He said NONE woudl be lost.

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”)

IF we have to work for our salvation, then again- even one small sin is enough to break our relationship with God and results in al oss of salvation-

IF we have to work to keep our salvation then what are the lines for keeping it? Not committing 5 sins a day? 10? 1? 20? The man who says he is sinless is a liar- ALL sin is serious- No matter how inconsequential it may seem to someone- ALL sin separates us from God (Remember our talk about being separated but not cut off- a son can separate himself from his parents, but he is always that person’s son- no matter what- by blood- By blood we are Christ’s sons and daughters too- just in a little different manner blood-wise- But We still truly become His sons and daughters complete with all the rights of a bloodline son or daughter)

For more o nthe ‘work out your salvation’ verse- look here:

“If “once saved, always saved” is not true, then by necessity we are saved both by our faith and our works. If we can do sinful things, or not do good things (James 4:17) and lose our security, then our good deeds are a part of our salvation.”

https://tinyurl.com/5dnw6cjf

It is simply encouraging them to ‘work out’ what is in them- ie good works, gifts of the Spirit- etc-

“”With fear and trembling” does not imply that if the people do not work out their salvation just right they can lose their salvation. It means that they should work out their salvation with reverential humility and respect for the God whom they serve. Since they are now responsible on their own, they should be careful not to offend God through disobedience. The truly reverent and humble person cares greatly what God thinks of them.”

https://www.authenticlifeidentity.com/daily-devotions/work-out-your-salvation

Note- we should always keep ourselves with fear and trembling because God is a Holy Righteous God, and it should grieve us terribly to disappoint Him- liek hte passage above states-

[[without the many cautioning damnation passages...]]

All of which when carefully scrutinized IN Context, and scrutinized by carefully reading the original words- etc- show that one is not capable of losing their salvation, but rather one should work out what is in them- not to earn or maintain their salvation, but because God has graciously saved us and we should respond with holy reverence to that fact-

Paul spoke to a couple of churches that were severely back-slidden- severely carnal, Like committing ‘really big sins’ as a way of life- He spoke to them NOT as ‘Former brothers and sisters in Christ” but as “Fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ”- They were not working to maintain their salvation, nor did Paul expect them to- He did warn them that they were in danger of chastisement if they didn’t start to obey God- and he did encourage them to remember their first love and get back to it- He spoke to them as Saved people- not as unsaved people who had lost their salvation- That fact too can not be over looked

Again- I’m not going to go over all the controversial verses in the bible- if you don’t wish to believe that Christ will never lose any of His own that are given to Him, then i don’;t know what to tell you- other than do a serious study on ‘assurances of salvation in the bible’ with commentary on the verses-

We never ever earn salvation by our obedience- it is always a free gift of righteousness from Christ- He imparts His righteousness onto us- our own ‘righteousness’ or ‘righteous acts’ is always stained with sin- Christ’s is not, and His perfection is what saves us- not our works- lest any man should boast- That much is very clear from God’s word-

in order to be in heaven where no sin can be, we MUST be cleansed completely clean by the only one who was ever sinless- Christ- IF we are to have any part in our own salvation, We mar it terribly by our very sin nature which is always sinning- always- Our righteous acts are as filthy rags the bible tells us= and our filthy rags stained with sin can never save us or make us pure as is needed for us to live in heaven where no sin can dwell- We can never turn so completely from sin that we are ‘righteous enough by our own efforts” to save or even maintain our own salvation

Thank God that it is not up to us to be saved or to maintain our salvation because noone woudl ever be saved if that were the case-

IF a person could save themselves, or maintain their salvation through their own righteous living, sin stained as it is, then that is a braggadocios act that declares that that person has earned his way into heaven by his own ‘good deeds’ (which again, remember the bible tells us are filthy rags)

Where God is no sin can be- That is why he had to kick Satan and his followers out- God’s righteousness can not dwell with unrighteous- and the bible tells us that there is not one righteous person- none- ONLY Christ’s righteousness imputed to us makes us whole and pure and able to stand i n the presence of God=- Forgiven and pure and sinless- Again, if it were up to us, there is no way we could stand in His presence because of our sin nature which is always sinning- Christ’s blood covers ALL of our sins- it has to- because our ‘good deeds’ can never cover our sins- not even a tiny portion of them-

We stand blameless before God precisely because Christ covered ALL of our sins, past present and future- otherwise no man could ever make it to heaven because not only do we sin by committing acts, but we also sin in ways we don’t even realize, and Any sin in a person can not be brought into heaven- when a person dies with sin i n their life- either realized or unrealized, they would be bringing that sin into heaven with them IF IT WERE NOT for the covering blood of Christ which makes us white as snow- Pure, Sinless in terms of Salvation through Christ (that does not mean we can’t sin as humans, but our eternal destination is sealed by Christ’s Saving purifying blood)

Wow.. a lot to digest...
Much to respond to..
Need a few days.. medical issues...

hope it’s nothign serious-

You and i are not gonna come ot an agreement on the issue obviously- The bible states many times salvation is a doen deal- the spirit seals until the day of redemption- Christ doesn’t lose any sheep, and many other cases of eternal salvation- since those verses are there, then other verses which seem to contradict must be wrongly interpreted for one reason or another- usually because the original words are not considered, or the passage is taken out of context, or the passages speak specifically to Jews only- for very specific reasons related to their culture or whatever-

Again- what is the yardstick used to measure whether we are ‘good enough’ to ‘maintain our salvation’? How many sins is enough to lose it? How many times must we neglect doing something we know we should before we are cut off from salvation? If WE can lose our salvation, then it becomes a necessity that we must also earn back our salvation by ‘doing enough good deeds to weight the balances back into the saved realm again’- this is unscriptural- it’s super unscriptural

Being people plagued by a constant sin nature, we can not possibly hope to maintain our own salvation over a lifetime by doing enough works to ‘earn the right to salvation’- Christ alone MUST secure our eternal state because we are incapable of doing so. The law of the Jews turned into man trying to maintain his own salvation, (although God never intended them to adopt this as their method of salvation), and it failed miserably- which is why Christ had to come to be our sacrifice for us=- because we are incapable of sacrificing enough to appease the strict demand of perfect sinlessness by God in order to dwell with Him-

Again, man’s righteous acts are as filthy dirty worthless acts to Him because they are stained with sin- Only Christ’s perfectly sinless blood can cover our sins once and for all- and it does- because if it were otherwise, man could boast that he earned his own salvation through his ‘righteous enough’ deeds- Nope Nope Nope-

The Jews had to keep sacrificing animals because they were imperfect because they were staiend by the curse too- The sacrifices only lasted just so long with God- and the Jews woudl have to repeat them over and over and over throughout hte year because of that.

Christ on the other hand is the perfect sacrifice- a once for all sacrifice- He died once and only once because His blood is all we need for eternal salvation- His blood covers ALL our sin, past present and future- IF we have to keep getting saved- that means his sacrifice is not eternal- not complete, ot good enough to save for ever- and so he must be ‘resacrificed’ each time we supposedly lose our salvation- and this would make God out to be a liar because He said that ALL whom He gives to Christ will never be lost- Ever-

Christ and His perfectly pure blood sacrifice is the yardstick which measures our salvation security, not our ‘good works’ or ‘righteous acts’ which are but filth

just one more brief point- and perhaps the strongest point in regards to eternal security in Christ Alone-

since we can never ever live up to the perfectly Holy Standard that being in God’s presence demands, how can we ever achieve salvation on our own in the first place? We can’t- Christ gives it to us- IF we must work to be holy in order to maintain our salvation, then we shall never keep our salvation because we can never do good enough to maintain it- never- We can not achieve mortal perfection- which is absolutely required in order to be with God in eternity

Our efforts ALWAYS ‘miss the mark’ (Interestingly, the word ‘sin’ means to ‘miss the mark’) because of our sin-

Now, Either we can be perfectly sinless in our own efforts, or we can’t- there is no ‘close enough’ with God- it is all or nothing. There are no ‘big and no small sins’ with God- ALL sin separates us from Him, so that even the tiniest sin in our minds, either conscious or not, is enough to separate us from Him because of His strict demand for perfect Holiness. Since we can never conquer all our sins, ‘big and small’, that woudl mean God could never accept us into eternal glory- even the smallest of sins woudl be enough to bar us from heaven- if salvation is left up to us to work for

Thank God it is not- Thank God that we are deemed perfect through the shed blood of Christ- and if we are perfect because of Him, we remain perfect because of him, not because of us or our feeble efforts to eschew earthly sin (We should strive to do so, but because we love Christ and want to show our appreciation for Him, not because it means we lose salvation if we don’t). Thank God we are washed pure as the driven snow by His blood which covers ALL our sins, even our unconfessed sins which we may or may not even be aware of.

Christ MUST save us- we can’t save ourselves-

Thank God it is not- Thank God that we are deemed perfect through the shed blood of Christ- and if we are perfect because of Him, we remain perfect because of him, not because of us or our feeble efforts to eschew earthly sin (We should strive to do so, but because we love Christ and want to show our appreciation for Him, not because it means we lose salvation if we don’t). Thank God we are washed pure as the driven snow by His blood which covers ALL our sins, even our unconfessed sins which we may or may not even be aware of.

Christ MUST save us- we can’t save ourselves-

- - - - -

Amen.

we remain perfect because of him, not because of us or our feeble efforts to eschew earthly sin (We should strive to do so, but because we love Christ and want to show our appreciation for Him, not because it means we lose salvation if we don’t).

We want to show our appreciation? ‪No.no‬, no…

We are to imitate Christ, he NOW Lives in US, we are to be transformed into a new body and stay that way…
Ask yourself, Do you think Satan wants you to “remain” in Christ?
Do you think Satan leaves us alone, un-tempted, now because we are untouchable once we are “Saved” ?

Thank God we are washed pure as the driven snow by His blood which covers ALL our sins, even our unconfessed sins which we may or may not even be aware of.

Most can understand the “simplicity” of snow covering the dung pile of sin. Most don’t know the amoral nature of the guy who invented that analogy, for himself. It’s wrong, and unbiblical.

+++“Behold the Lamb of God, who TAKES AWAY the sin of the World”+++

Our sins are forgiven, taken away, They do not remain with us, or hidden from whatever... the stain of sin is removed, that was won on the Cross.
Through Christ, God has given us remittance of our sinful human nature. We confess and repent, and “ through the shed blood of Christ” as you say- not for any reasons of appreciation- the wages of sin are Always death for us…

If Christ thought he was just covering up our sins… so that no one can see them ..... why all the biblical fuss over sin?…
Why in the world would he tell us, hyperbolically….:::

+++If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut if off. It is better for you to enter into life crippled than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the Kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, where their worm does not die,+++

What sense or reason or purpose would it be then for Christ to think sin was so inconsequential.. and that our sin can simply be buried under snow? Why?

Thanks Bob - diagnostic stuff
 Nothing serious yet...

Yesterday’s Mass Gospel for us was so dang ironic… I wanted to get to my Ipad badly…The Mass Liturgy runs in a 3 year cycle- where we read 90% of the Bible- and then start all over again. (I think that is awesome exposure - compared to the individual systems where the Preacher gets to pick the Gospels he (or she) want to talk about, avoiding that which they don’t)
Anyway its always helpful when the Mass reading just happens to coincide with freeper discussion. But the Gospel reading was Christ telling us it’s better to go to Heaven maimed- by cutting off hand or foot, or plucking out an eye.... rather than live a life with sin. For Christ to Live in us... we must take sin seriously and fight it every step of the way. Confession and Repentance

Were still far apart on things we don’t agree on – but can’t lose sight on what we do agree on. But you have to agree the principles of faith you hold onto did not exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity. You can interpret them out of the Bible...but these doctrines don’t appear until the 16 th century.

Briefly on the branches- it is talking aobut unsaved Jews being cast away and burned- Jews who claimed to be ‘religious’; but who never accepted Christ-

That's how we look back on it... reading into history. But Paul is talking in his day... about the chosen (saved) Jews who rejected the Law of Moses etc. ... they being of the Chosen Natural branch God did not spare...
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.

"Did not spare" can only mean a verifiable past action, such as the disobedient breaking of his Covenantal law... not a present tense reference to Jews in Rome not converting.
Nor did the Churches in Rome have the Judiazer issue and so Paul was writing to already saved converted Jews in the Church of Rome.
But THE FOCUS of the verse is not really on the who, the subject, Christians in Rome, but how good chose and chooses that which he will "spare" and not spare. For even his FIRST chosen people he may not spare...

those who say “Lord Lord” who will go to hell- or be burned up- ...Those are hte ones Christ spoke of who when i nheaven say “Lord, have we not prophesied in your name?” and Christ says to them “Depart from Me I never knew you”
Note carefully- He said he “NEVER” knew them- in otherwords, they claimed to be Christians, but they Never accepted Him as Savior- they were CINO’s, Christians in name only- ie unsaved- always-

I agree... absolutely. Christ never knew THEM... but they believed THEY KNEW CHRIST... and lived a life "believing" they knew him...

WHY did Christ NOT know them?

So WHAT MAKES someone a CINO?

It has to be something THEY DID or DID NOT DO.... Correct?
Although it is not for us to make this call, we have a big problem with Biden and Pelosi... and even clergy involved in sexual abuse.
For they were also BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST (Galatians) by and with unmerited Grace , confirmed with the Holy Spirit... and claim they are worthy to take the Body of Christ into their Body (whether others don't believe in the Eucharist- THEY do, and claim this their whole life
They claim to be Christians...(not up to me to decide).... are they saved- or were they never Christians to begin with? You see the problem with CINO? One can delude themselves into thinking they are saved.. but if tomorrow they confessed and repented they can be restored to their post-Justification regeneration... but while they cling to sin as the unbaptized do.... they are lost. When obviously, they are disobeying God, like Adam did, like Judas did.

When He says that Christ will Never lose ANY of those that God gives to Him- He means just that- a Saved person can Never be lost- Ever=- otherwise God is a liar- If And a person can go their whole life saved, then make commit a7g terrible sin and die doing so- and that person is lost- then Gold’s word is false-

Well Judas was lost... and was not a surprise... and that doesn’t make God a liar. But I don’t agree you can read that verse in an absolute that NONE will be lost... it’s God’s Will that none be lost... but it does not say absolutely In the end none will actually be lost ... just like where Paul says it is God’s desire that ” All men be saved and come to know the truth”... well we know God’s desire is one thing.... but We know not all will be saved.... similarly some will be lost.

My bible tells me that when a person is saved, —NO— man can pluck that person out of God’s hands- and that includes the man or woman themselves- My bible tells me that —NO— soul given to Christ by God will be lost- None- The verses you cited talk about people Christ —NEVER— Knew, not even briefly- when He said Never, He meant Never- they were never saved-

You read that verse differently or cannot see what Catholics see when they read it:

”I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, AND NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, AND NO ONE is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
And also like:
For I am sure that ...... neither death nor life,
nor angels nor rulers,
nor things present
nor things to come,
nor powers,
nor height nor depth,
nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In John it’s says No One... can take you or I from God’s hands... we agree on this... no one outside of ourselves.... BUT.IT.DOES.NOT. Say we cannot remove ourselves from God’s hands... ONLY that no one can do that TO US....
St. Paul gets a little more detailed...but again...he outlines quite clearly... NOTHING EXTERNAL TO US can separate us from Christ... but what is MISSING?
“nor ourselves” ..... that we can we be separated by our own doing... I doesn’t say that....Interestingly enough too... and there’s no time to go down that path...but St. Paul finishes with, “nor anything else in ALL creation”.....
Well guess what we battle with everyday that Paul left off the list... and is NOT part of God’s creation?
sin !

[[And not the one the Holy Spirit has guided since the beginning.]] You are giving an opinion and are giving an opinion and frankly a wrong opinion- My bible is full of assurance of Salvation verses-

Not opinion. No where in Church history has this been debated- or opposed as a heresy until reformers of the 16th century. Your reading into history that Church Fathers and theologians throughout history read these “salvation” verses the same way you do... they simply didn’t - and there is no evidence to support your claim of a wrong opinion. It was an idea of the moderns enlightenment.

[[Do you really think St. PAUL was intentionally speaking gibberish about “working out his salvation...”?]] Wow- ok- just briefly- again- working out does not mean ‘working for’- it means working out the gifts which are given the CHristian - IF we have to maintain our salvation, then God’s gift of salvation is no longer a FREE gift, but an earned reward-

Yes I know “work” is a trigger buzz word. But THAT is not important...If Paul believed in guaranteed salvation.... this verse what not even need to exist. Perhaps Paul had knowledge of the Scripture where Jesus infers that one CAN lose their reward when he said:

+++” For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. +++Reward-singular)

Who knows where Paul’s preaching is derived from... often though he tells us it what was given him by Christ... and while one may find comfort in “controversial” contestable verses... or contested context even.... the 30,000 ft view is undeniable.
Remember... the epistles are THE EARLIEST writings... much before the Gospels as we know today were yet written.... so Paul was already preaching about sin before the other writers got going.
So can you disagree with the fact that a good majority of Paul’s epistles are writing to his disciples- his converted Christians in Corinth, Galatia Ephesus... and later Phillipi...- saved believing converts - who are in a mess because they are living sinful lives and doing sinful things because they feel they are now immune from judgement of any sin?
If sin could not impact their being in Christ - why all the fuss? Why the fuss over bringing condemnation to the Corinthinians for profaning the Body of Christ in the Eucharist... if they are eternally saved where no such sin could ever separate them? I hope you see what I’m getting at... don’t get hung up on fear... or trembling... but that these passages are being attended to in the first place.
There is absolutely no reason for St. Paul to chastise those disciples who are falling into sin.... NOT following the agospel he had given them.. if there was no serious consequence for their behavior. It does not follow.

Hebrews goes further:
26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”)

IF we have to work to keep our salvation then what are the lines for keeping it? Not committing 5 sins a day? 10? 1? 20? The man who says he is sinless is a liar- ALL sin is serious- No matter how inconsequential it may seem to someone- ALL sin separates us from God

Counting sins? what you just wrote is something a non-believer encounters a Christian with. Yes we sin. And we have been given the redemption by which our sins are forgiven. But 2 things must happen here... ONE .. we have to ASK to be forgiven.. and secondly ...we must forgive OTHERS their trespasses against us... or we will not be forgiven by God either.
So yes, again we must “DO” something to cooperate with the Grace God has given us-unmerited.
Yes, it would seem Christ is quite demanding of us.... “Count the cost...” we are cautioned... “Be perfect,as your Father in Heaven is perfect” Yes, it is not going to be easy...Remember though... ONLY UNREPENTANT sin can keep us from God.... as God is a Merciful God.... when we show we are deserving of his mercy....

As C.S. Lewis wrote about Christians...sure we will sin... but it’s how we pick ourselves back up and get going again is what determines Our sincerity... Godknows our hearts... there’s no fooling God In that process....

Paul spoke to a couple of churches that were severely back-slidden- severely carnal, Like committing ‘really big sins’ as a way of life- He spoke to them NOT as ‘Former brothers and sisters in Christ” but as “Fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ”- They were not working to maintain their salvation, nor did Paul expect them to- He did warn them that they were in danger of chastisement if they didn’t start to obey God- and he did encourage them to remember their first love and get back to it- He spoke to them as Saved people- not as unsaved people who had lost their salvation- That fact too can not be over looked

Chastisement? Why? Why would the be chastised for sins we know we are humanly unable to avoid? Either sin matters or it doesn’t... there’s no partial view of sin...
If their sins are simply now covered up.... there should be no problem... hell, “sin boldly... but believe more boldly”... That’s NOT what Paul is saying to those Churches...in fact he lets them know on a personal level...

”  But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[b] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”

Again.... make no sense in a once saved always saved theology... none whatsoever.

 Again- I’m not going to go over all the controversial verses in the bible- if you don’t wish to believe that Christ will never lose any of His own that are given to Him, then i don’;t know what to tell you- other than do a serious study on ‘assurances of salvation in the bible’ with commentary on the verses-

I agree ... scripture quote mining is not what we do. Don’t misunderstand me. There ARE assurances of salvation for us in the Bible for sure... the fact we find them not to be automatic and absolute does not make our situation dire at all.
There are assurances... but we must cooperate with those Graces we receive everyday of our lives the best we can... we are called to be Holy... not simply re-assured....
The New Testament would be a much thinner book if sin and sinfulness were not considered critical to our “persevering to the end”  Again- I’m not going to go over all the controversial verses in the bible- if you don’t wish to believe that Christ will never lose any of His own that are given to Him, then i don’;t know what to tell you- other than do a serious study on ‘assurances of salvation in the bible’ with commentary on the verses-

I agree ... scripture quote mining is not what we do well... too many interpretations that can render scripture meaningless... except for on an individual level...

Don’t misunderstand me. I know and believe there ARE assurances of salvation for us in the Bible for sure... the fact we find them NOT to be automatic and absolute does not make our situation Any the more dire at all.
There are assurances... but we must cooperate with those Graces we receive everyday of our lives the best we can... we are called to be Holy... not simply re-assured....
The New Testament would be a much thinner book if sin and sinfulness were not considered critical to our “persevering to the end”

[[But you have to agree the principles of faith you hold onto did not exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity]]

That isn’t true at all. Salvation has zlways been faith in the redeemer/Christ. Before the new testament, Christ was simply known as the redeemer, prophesied of, yet to come, but alive in heaven. The old testament folks who were truly saved were actuslly Christians, they just didn’t have a name for it yet. There were .a great many saved jews when Jesus was crucified. They were saved even before he went to the cross and died.

I see you are touching on more and more known skeptical verses whi h seem to indicate a loss of salvation. Again, careful reading, in context, considering whom the passage is about in many cases, tells us thst those verses do not co traditional once saved always saved. I gave you a good link onmthe issue of the natural,branches. Those jews were jews that had adopted other gods and were not saved. The passage and taking into account who the passage was written to makes that clear that this was specifically about jews who were not saved, and was not about gentile Christians. The link I gave explains in detail

[[agree... absolutely. Christ never knew THEM... but they believed THEY KNEW CHRIST... and lived a life “believing” they knew him...]]

This isn’t true either. Unsaved peop,e who pretend to be saved know in their hearts they are unsaved. God isn’t going to trick anyone, and he always let’s them know through his spirit who convicts them. They can learn to ignore the conviction of the holy spirit, but they know full well they aren’t saved. Despite their claims,to,the contrary. God has written the universal moral code o. Everyone’s heart, and everyonemgoung to hell does so knowing that thye are at odds with the creator.

What makes themma cino is the fsct thatnthey never ac epted Christ, butmthey claim to have. There are many many religions that speak,a good game, but who do not preach salvation through Christ alone- these are false Christians, cinos.

You go on to state that they perform certain Christian rituals, but none of those save. Only faith in Christ saves. Religious but unsaved people go through all,manner of rituals and baptisms and whatnot, but they have never accepted christ as savior. We can’t earn our way to heaven by following religious rituals and rites etc.

Gettingmback,to,Getting back,, very important point of whether we can lose salvation or not, it can’t be so because the moment we state that we must maintain our salvation, we have room to brag that we save ourselves by our good deeds and by abstaining from sin, whi h is entirely impossible this side of heaven.

When we claim we can lose salvation and re-earn it, it is no longer “Christ alone” but now becomes “Christ plus my pious living” that earns salvation

To,be saved means to repent. To repent simply means to “have a change of mind”. It doesn’t mean turning your back,on sins because that is impossible- no man can do so, and an unsaved person has no desire whatsoever to even try because their sin nature is at enmity with God. They do not have the holy spirit yet. So,it,is impossible for them to will themselves into a,”good enough state” of sinlessness so that Christ is obliged to accept,them into,the family.

How much sin does one need to remove from their lives in order to be saved? ALL sin. Even the little things and unseen things, and things we don’t even know we are doing, because to be saved is to be perfectly sinless before God. The only way to achieve that is to,have a change of mind about HOW one must be saved. No longer shoukd,should, person think,that anything they do saves them. Only Christ can save. Our works are as filthy rags and totally unacceptable to God.

When we finally come to,the point where we say to God “ok lord, I’m done trying to,save myself, and I throw myself at your feet a miserable sinner incapable of working for,my salvation, therefore i call onmthe name of Christ alone to,save me” will such a person be saved because they finally repented.

Passages that seem to,indicate saved,people losing salvation almost a.ways are talking about unsaved people pretending they are saved, and who are trying to earn their way to salvation. Those are the people,Christ will,say “depart from me I never knew you” to. Those passages are fair earning to,such people to get their acts together and and stop,trying to be pious “religious folks” who benefit fro the church, but who never accept Christ. They get very close to salvation, know all the words, and might even sound saved, but if you talk to,them long enough you will,find they never repented, thstmtheynare just along for the ride.

Thrse posts are getting too long- too many trails to explore- all,I can real,y say at this point is that once saved a,ways saved has to,be true because the moment we say that we must maintain our salvation, we take salvation completely out-of Christ’s hands and plunk it squarely on ourselves. Paul and the apostles and Christ,warned agaisn this, stating clearly that salvation is not earned lest any man should boast

I suppose someone could say that they aren’t boasting when they say they are maintaining their own salvation, butmthey are boasting because God has c,early stated all through his word,even In the old testament, that salvation comes by faith alone, not works lest any man should beast. Saying that we must maintain our own salvation is boasting really.

There is a term I can’t quite recall but i think is something,oiek,the word “dispensia” or soemthing like,that. It meansmthst when a basic bliblical truthmis established, any passages that seem to contradict it must mean something else, because the truth is so,profound that it stands on its own and can’t be shaken because God can not lie. When God said that noonemthat he gives christ will be lost, that is a major biblical truth. And when he says that we are sealed forever by the holy spirit, he means it. Anythingmthat contradicts this must either be read wrong, misinterpreted, or plain wrong. Since God’s word is infallible, we know,that it can’t be wrong, so it must be misinterpreted if it seems to,contradict a major biblical,truth.

God has alwaysmmaintained that salvation is solely through the redeemer. He says so many times. If it is solely through the redeemer, then it can’t be through anything that we do to “keep” it.

Judas was never saved- ever. There are many sermons on this issue, so,no, he wasn’t saved then lost.

[[BUT.IT.DOES.NOT. Say we cannot remove ourselves from God’s hands... ONLY that no one can do that TO US.... ]]

It,is,a given thst even we can’t remove ourselves from salvation because we are sealed- no conditions for that sealing. Salvation is a gift, not earned. Again, we can’t maintain our salvation because doing so is earning, and is in direct opposition to his word that tells us we are filthy rags incapable of good deeds. You keep,ignoring this very important point, and the reasons it is so important is because it proves that we can never be good enough to save oj4selves or to get to a point where christ then says “ok, good eneough, I’m now obliged to save you again.

We are going round and round in circles here I’m afraid. There is no escaping 2 very important points- 1 we can never be good,enough that christ will then be obliged to save us again, because as Paul makes abundantly clear, our best deeds are as dirty grimy filthy foul smellingmrags,smelling rags, God. 2 being saved is strictly an act performed by christ, not us, but if we say we must maintain our salvation, the we take it out of his hands and now our salvationmrelies on our “good deeds”, hoping I guess to “do,enough good deeds that it outweighs the bad ones so that God will be obliged to save us again. 3we must repent, ie have a change of mind about HOW we are saved in order to be saved. When we come to,realize that nothing we do can make us perfectly sinless so thst we can be in the presence of God, thenmwe,fall at Christ’s feet and empty ourselves of all effort and ask him for mercy and grace because we don’t deserve it, can’t earn it, and don’t even want it apart from HIS drawing us to Him. We bow in humble realization thst nothing we do can ever be clean enough, sinless enough, rest enough to cover our sins, and therefore we fall upon the mercy of the only sinless perfect sacrifice to ever have lived, and we thank,God for loving us enough to,draw us to him and that realization.

[[Chastisement? Why?]]

Because that is what God does to protect us. He corrects bad behavior for our own good. We can ,intentionally to him, accept,th punishment, or reject it and walk off,in a huff, but we are stil. Saved. The point was that severely carnal Christian churches were called brothers and sisters, not “former brothers and sisters”- they didn’t lose their salvation, and the sins they were including in were “whoppers” by today’s standards.

We’ve gone over the above key points several times now. My answers remain the same- we can’t maintain because they woild mean we are responsible for our salvation, not christ, because without our “trying to,be good enough” we woild,not be saved if we were able to lose salvation. Also we could then brag if we were honest with ourselves and admitted that what was really going on was we save ourselves by our efforts if we could,lose salvation. There’s just no getting around that. We can be fake and say with false humility that “oh no, it’s not me that saves, but Christ alone” but the very belief that we must maintain our own salvation shows,that we don’t really,beleive it is only,christ, but also,our efforts, which Paul told us we,can not do,because we,c an never be good enough to maintain ourmsalvation.

[[ What sense or reason or purpose would it be then for Christ to think sin was so inconsequential.. ]]

sins aren’t inconsequential you missed the point. Sinsmare fogotten by christ. There is therefore now “No condemnation” to those who are saved. So no, snow,isn’t burying a turd as you suggest. We are washed white as snow. We are pure through christ.

We also,aren’t “buried under snow” we are washed completely clean and are figurative “white as snow”

Once again we see the importance of understanding the verses we read. The hel, fire was a dump onmthe outskirts of town that were always buring- also the terms “UT off the feet, hand. Pluck out the eye” was Aramaic and simply,meant to stop looking at sin, stop walking twoards,towards,, stop participating in it” it didn’t literally mean to cut them off and pluck them out

[[Ask yourself, Do you think Satan wants you to “remain” in Christ? ]]

Thank God he has no choice inmthe matter. Noone can pluck us out of God’s hand, not even ourselves. We are sealed. There are no conditions to,thay sealing, it is a done deal. If it weren’t then I would get to brag that I keep saving myself and co lelling th3 holy spirit to keep re-sealing me.

Bob, it's been good discussion and I have learned somethings along the way. Not that you would agree with, but something that goes to deeper meanings.

Your theology of a guaranteed is just not practical in its application to me and many others both Catholic and Protestant. The ability to know one has been saved OSAS requires the one who is saved to make that declaration- based on their Faith beliefs.

Not being logical is probably a better definition than practical.
I can't follow the progression.
The saved person can know that they’re saved, once for all.
The damned often can think that they’re saved, but they aren’t (obviously) or never were in the first place.
Even those "truly" saved being around the damned often think that the damned individual is saved, and before he or she ultimately “falls away"- and is no longer saved.

I cannot process this as any type if assurance or even knowing how it can be assured. If the outward or onward lives of those being saved and being damned-but-deluded are the same (you think you’re saved, other people think you’re saved), where’s the assurance, exactly?
After all, the ultimately damned person may be just as assured of his salvation as the "truly" saved person, but then obviously that assurance of salvation doesn’t seem to be doing much for him.
If anything, it might even be damaging, presuming that the ultimately damned person could have been saved if not for the appearance of already being saved.
So in a practical sense, a false sense of being saved can be something akin to a demonic.

So, I remain unswayed in the area of guaranteed salvation, OSAS doctrine stuff. Also, primarily, I see where you must feel Free Will does not exist,, or we lose our Free Will upon being saved. That loss of free will assumes an assured guarantee then- but then how can someone be saved at one point in their life and then 20 years down the road turn Atheist Do we lose our free will selectively?.

• As often found, the arguments for the guarantee are always self-referential, that basically end up assuming the thing that needs to be proved.
and that depends on standards that can be applied in one area of biblical theology- but rejected in another. The standard of rejecting a "metaphor" such as- "This is my Body" can be easily applied to "plucking sheep out of God's hands".
Too much has to be read into the passages you cite, and in that even if they are accepted, "This is my Body" must be accepted along the same lines of criteria. You can see where an even playing field of interpretation would lead to.. • Subjectivity rules the day.

So no, snow,isn’t burying a turd as you suggest. We are washed white as snow. We also,aren’t “buried under snow” ...

Whoa... "snow covering a turd pile" representing sin IS NOT MY SUGGESTION...
THAT WAS MARTIN LUTHER'S explanation of how his idea of once saved... worked. Thats NOT a Catholic teaching AT ALL.

I assumed you knew. I am at a disadvantage here because I have no clue which denomination or free spirit community you may belong. I would assume you ascribe to some variation thereof though.

No one can pluck us out of God’s hand, not even ourselves. We are sealed. There are no conditions to,thay sealing, it is a done deal.

Again, what you are reading into there is permanency. That verse does not say that. Again, you're assuming the very issue that needs to be proven. And so it becomes circular.
I could just as easily say that being in God's hands is the same as "being in his Love"... you would say no.... God always Loves Us...but then John says we must do something to REMAIN in God's Love- and if we don't- it is obviously a conditional proposition outside the assurance of any guarantee. I know some would say that eternal guarantee is so strong- one does NOT even have to Love God once saved. It's not practical.

The passage and taking into account who the passage was written to makes that clear that this was specifically about jews who were not saved, and was not about gentile Christians. The link I gave explains in detail

If they were Children of Abraham, they had every promise of a Chosen people of God... Which transcends a need to be saved. They did something in losing God's Chosen status- regardless of "what" it was that they did.

This isn’t true either. Unsaved peop,e who pretend to be saved know in their hearts they are unsaved. God isn’t going to trick anyone, and he always let’s them know through his spirit who convicts them.

How can someone "pretend" to be saved? CINO'S as you say? There are hundreds of faith beliefs out there? Who decides who is right- and gets to decide who is CINO?
Who becomes the Judge in that?
Does divorce/adultety disqualify ? Pro-Abortion sentiments?? Who makes t he call?

You have gone to great lengths to tell me once your saved- you saved.... and all it takes is ONE moment out of a lifetime to declare that salvation Guarantee. I see that as a very hood reason to believe we have been saved in Baptism, continue to be saved through God's Graces, and Hope to be saved in nto eternity upon our earthly death. Doesn't that seem more practical? And avoids the pretense of pr oclsimkng of being saved much sooner before we die?

You go on to state that they perform certain Christian rituals, but none of those save. Only faith in Christ saves. Religious but unsaved people go through all,manner of rituals and baptisms and whatnot, but they have never accepted christ as savior. We can’t earn our way to heaven by following religious rituals and rites etc.

You need to be depogrammed.
The Church teaches WE CANNOT earn our Salvation- it is only through the Grace of God... AND furthermore... WE GAVE BEEN ALREADY PROMISED eternallife in the Cross..we already have that...its nit something we can earn...but only Something we can lose...
Aside from St. PETER declaring that Baptism now SAVES YOU... leaving that aside, the Church does NOT teach the Sacraments save you. They only can CONVEY GOD'S GRACE throughout our earthly lifetime. ONLY Christ can save. And NOR do I judge myself saved... that is up to God.

How is declaring myself saved OSAS... any different then someone declaring themself saved through rituals? THEY ARE BOTH SELF-DETERMINANT (Again. The Church teaches ONLY Christ can Save.)

When we claim we can lose salvation and re-earn it, it is no longer “Christ alone” but now becomes “Christ plus my pious living” that earns salvation

You don't lose Salvation- or the promise thereof. It's a turning away from God- choosing sin over repentance.
God does not take away his promise, ever- or allow someone else to take away his promise.... we have to break his promise and turn our back.

It's always something we sinners DO... Gotta leave it there...