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Who Were The Celts?
Ibiblio.org ^ | unknown

Posted on 09/26/2002 8:29:44 AM PDT by blam

Who were the Celts?

The Celts were a group of peoples that occupied lands stretching from the British Isles to Gallatia. The Celts had many dealings with other cultures that bordered the lands occupied by these peoples, and even though there is no written record of the Celts stemming from their own documents, we can piece together a fair picture of them from archeological evidence as well as historical accounts from other cultures.

The first historical recorded encounter of a people displaying the cultural traits associated with the Celts comes from northern Italy around 400 BC, when a previously unkown group of barbarians came down from the Alps and displaced the Etruscans from the fertile Po valley, a displacment that helped to push the Etruscans from history's limelight. The next encounter with the Celts came with the still young Roman Empire, directly to the south of the Po. The Romans in fact had sent three envoys to the beseiged Etruscans to study this new force. We know from Livy's The Early History of Rome that this first encounter with Rome was quite civilized:

[The Celts told the Roman envoys that] this was indeed the first time they had heard of them, but they assumed the Romans must be a courageous people because it was to them that the [Etruscans] had turned to in their hour of need. And since the Romans had tried to help with an embassy and not with arms, they themselves would not reject the offer of peace, provided the [Etruscans] ceded part of their seperfluous agricultural land; that was what they, the Celts, wanted.... If it were not given, they would launch an attack before the Romans' eyes, so that the Romans could report back how superior the Gauls were in battle to all others....The Romans then asked whether it was right to demand land from its owners on pain of war, indeed what were the Celts going in Etruria in the first place? The latter defiantly retorted that their right lay in their arms: To the brave belong all things. The Roman envoys then preceded to break their good faith and helped the Etruscans in their fight; in fact, one of the envoys, Quintas Fabius killed one of the Celtic tribal leaders. The Celts then sent their own envoys to Rome in protest and demand the Romans hand over all members of the Fabian family, to which all three of the original Roman envoys belonged, be given over to the Celts, a move completely in line with current Roman protocol. This of course presented problems for the Roman senate, since the Fabian family was quite powerful in Rome. Indeed, Livy says that:

The party structure would allow no resolution to be made against such noblemanm as justice would have required. The Senate...therefore passed examination of the Celts' request to the popular assembly, in which power and influence naturally counted for more. So it happened that those who ought to have been punished were instead appointed for the coming year military tribunes with consular powers (the highest that could be granted). The Celts saw this as a mortal insult and a host marched south to Rome. The Celts tore through the countryside and several battalions of Roman soilders to lay seige to the Capitol of the Roman Empire. Seven months of seige led to negotiations wherby the Celts promised to leave their seige for a tribute of one thousand pounds of gold, which the historian Pliny tells was very difficult for the entire city to muster. When the gold was being weighed, the Romans claimed the Celts were cheating with faulty weights. It was then that the Celts' leader, Brennus, threw his sword into the balance and and uttered the words vae victis "woe to the Defeated". Rome never withstood another more humiliating defeat and the Celts made an initial step of magnificent proportions into history.

Other Roman historians tell us more of the Celts. Diodorus notes that:

Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with ripling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheaads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are cleanshaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the seperate checks close together and in various colours. [The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rythmically against their shields.

Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:

In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil, keeping them carefully in wooden boxes. Diodorus Siculus, History.

What is a Celt and who are the Glasgow Celtics?

The people who made up the various tribes of concern were called Galli by the Romans and Galatai or Keltoi by the Greeks, terms meaning barbarian. It is from the greek Keltoi that Celt is derived. Since no soft c exists in greek, Celt and Celtic and all permutations should be pronounced with a hard k sound.

It is interesting to note that when the British Empire was distinguishing itself as better and seperate from the rest of humanity, it was decided that British Latin should have different pronunciation from other spoken Latin. Therefore, one of these distinguishing pronunciational differences was to make many of the previously hard k sounds move to a soft s sound, hence the Glasgow and Boston Celtics. It is the view of many today that this soft c pronunciation should be reserved for sports teams since there is obviously nothing to link them with the original noble savegery and furor associated with the Celts.

The Six Celtic Languages

There was a unifying language spoken by the Celts, called not suprisingly, old Celtic. Philogists have shown the descendence of Celtic from the original Ur-language and from the Indo-European language tradition. In fact, the form of old Celtic was the closest cousin to Italic, the precursor of Latin.

The original wave of Celtic immigrants to the British Isles are called the q-Celts and spoke Goidelic. It is not known exactly when this immigration occurred but it may be placed somtime in the window of 2000 to 1200 BC. The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early Celtic tounge and Italic. Some of the differences between Italic and Celtic included that lack of a p in Celtic and an a in place of an the Italic o.

At a later date, a second wave of immigrants took to the British Isles, a wave of Celts referred to as the p-Celts speaking Brythonic. Goidelic led to the formation of the three Gaelic languages spoken in Ireland, Man and later Scotland. Brythonic gave rise to two British Isles languages, Welsh and Cornish, as well as surviving on the Continent in the form of Breton, spoken in Brittany.

The label q-Celtic stems from the differences between this early Celtic tounge and the latter formed p-Celtic. The differences between the two Celtic branches are simple in theoretical form. Take for example the word ekvos in Indo-European, meaning horse. In q-Celtic this was rendered as equos while in p-Celtic it became epos, the q sound being replaced with a p sound. Another example is the Latin qui who. In q-Celtic this rendered as cia while in p-Celtic it rendered as pwy. It should also be noted that there are still words common to the two Celtic subgroups.

As an aside, take note that when the Irish expansion into Pictish Britain occurred (see below), several colonies were established in present day Wales. The local inhabitants called the Irish arrivals gwyddel savages from which comes geídil and goidel and thus the Goidelic tounge.

The Irish and the Scots Are From the Same Tribe

Ireland used to be divided up into five parts, the five fifths. There was a northern fifth, Ulster, a western fifth, Connaught, a southern fifth, Munster, an eastern fifth, Leinster and a middle fifth, Mide. Click here to see a map of the five fifths.

The Ulster Cycle is a set of stories which are grounded in the five fifths. Indeed, they are primarily concerned with Cú Chulainn, the Ulster hero and his king, Conor Mac Nessa in their wars against the king and queen of Connaught, Ailill and Maeve. These figures play a prominent role in the what may be the greatest story of the Ulster Cycle, the Táin Bó Cúailnge, The Cattle Raid of Cooley.

Sometime after 300 AD, Ulster became steadily less important in status among the five farthings and the ruling family of Mide, the Uí Néill Sons of Niall started to take over large parts of Connaught and most of Ulster. A similar move was made in Muster by the ruling family of Munster, the Eoganachta family. Thus was Ireland divided almost entirely into two halves.

The people of Ulster were pushed to a small coastal strip bordering the Irish Sea. The kingdom changed it's name to Dál Riata. Yet eventually Dál Riata fell under the rule and influence of the Uí Néill. This family, not content with the boundry presented by the sea, launched colonies across the Irish Sea into then Pictish Britain. Thus was Scotland founded, for it was these Uí Néill that the Romans called Scotti, not the original Picts.

Indeed, it was this Irish Expansion which led to Christianity in Scotland in 563 AD. St. Columba, the patron saint of Scotland, was a member of a powerful family in Dál Riata and in order to keep his ties in Ireland he settled on an island that was close to both Scotland and Ireland, Iona. Of course, even more bizarre is the fact that St. Patrick, the man responsible for bringing Christianity to Ireland in the first place, was from Wales.


TOPICS: History
KEYWORDS: archaeology; caledonia; celts; cymraeg; cymru; cymry; etruscans; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; history; losttribes; pictish; picts; the; thelosttribes; unitedkingdom; wales; welsh; were; who
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1 posted on 09/26/2002 8:29:44 AM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe; Domestic Church; RightWhale
Comments?
2 posted on 09/26/2002 8:31:34 AM PDT by blam
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To: Black Agnes; Malacoda; Ditter; goody2shooz
Over here. Comments?
3 posted on 09/26/2002 8:37:19 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Neat. Bookmarking this.

I'm not tall at all. But, my feet are still small in relation to my height. I'm not sure if this is European origin however, as my 3/4 NA grandmother's feet (and all her sisters) were teeeny!. Course, I could have gotten it from both sides I suppose.

I've read in several books that the 'Scots' were really a mix of Celt, Gaul, Pict and 'Scot'. I've also read that the Picts originated in Northern Africa in the area of Libya (egads, muammar might be a cousin...gag...) and migrated, first to spain, then to ireland, then to scotland. Lemme go dig a few links for you...

4 posted on 09/26/2002 8:49:53 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: blam
Hello Blam. This article is a rather typical Anglo-Centered view of the Celts. In reality Celtic History is much more broadly based than as seen through the narrow eyes of British/Irish history. Here is a much broader view:

                         
WHO WERE THE CELTS?

Four Thousand years ago, Abraham (a great-great grandson of Shem, a son of Noah ) and a small group of Hebrews (of which there were & are many varieties) migrated from southern Iraq to Canaan (~Palestine).  Several generations later, around 1853 BC, his Grandson Jacob (who was renamed Israel) and his 12 Sons and families moved to Egypt. As offspring of Shem, they were called "Shemites" or "Semites ", as were his many other offspring.

~1453 BC, now as the 12 Tribes of the 12 Sons of Israel, and over 3 Million strong, these Semites bailed out of Egypt in the well-documented EXODUS and fled back to ~Palestine.  But the Tribes “couldn't all get along” there, so ~922 BC these 5 Million Israelites split into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms.

(In actual numbers, 5 Million people is about the same size as Ireland, Norway, Denmark or Israel today, and was 10% of the estimated 50 Million world population at that time. The world population is now ONE HUNDRED TIMES as large. Compared to todays 6 Billion people, the Israelites relative population would have been over twice as large as the United States of America!)

The very large Northern Kingdom of Israel was made up of 10 of the Tribes. Inheriting the Kingly names which applied to all 12 Tribes before the split, the Northern Kingdom (alone) becomes known as the Kingdom of Israel or House of Israel, (also House of Joseph, House of Ephriam, House of Isaac, and House of Omri), and is led by the northern Tribe of Ephraim.

Two hundred years later these Northern Israelites were taken into captivity by the Assyrians (~722 BC) and relocated to the northern Fertile Crescent area of Iraq/Iran. They were not diligent in updating their eMail addresses, thus were called, by some, the "Lost Tribes", or "Lost Sheep" or "Lost Children" of the Kingdom or House of Israel. (However at ~1/12 or more of the worlds population it seems unlikely they would actually disappear, or get "lost". The global population now ~75 Million.)

A hundred years later, this "lost" Northern Kingdom of Israel with now over 6 Million Israelites helped the Medes and Persians overthrow the Assyrians, then escaped north through the Caucasus Mountains and past the Black and Caspian Seas, to explode into history ~610 BC as The Celts . These Celts mixed with (and fought against) each other, and other scattered Israelites (proto-Celts) who had escaped from Egypt by sea a thousand years earlier, before the Exodus, and other Israelites who migrated from Palestine after the Egyptian Exodus but before the Assyrian captivity and who established numerous outposts in Europe and elsewhere.

These Millions of Celts grew to become Tens, then Hundreds of Millions as they migrated in waves westward and northwest to Galatia, Ephesus, Collosse, Corinth, Thessalonika, Phillipi, to what is today Hallstadt, Austria and Neuchatel, Switzerland (where exist major Celtic digs and museums) and beyond, to totally dominate Northern and Western Europe. These Celts (also as Cimmerians, Scythians, Danaoi, Massagetae, Milesians, Masilia, Sarmatians, Germani, Goths, Franks, Gauls, Lombards, Belgae, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vandals, Danes, Normans, and other assorted "Barbarians") are the rootstock of today’s Europeans and Americans who became the backbone of global Christianity .

The much smaller Southern Kingdom was made up of the Tribe of Judah & a mix of Levites and Benjamites. It was also known as the Kingdom of Judah or House of Judah. These Southern Israelites (aka Judeans) were taken captive in ~587 BC and removed to Babylon. Only ~50,000 Judeans returned to Palestine ~70 years later. They and their offspring are called Jews.

5 posted on 09/26/2002 8:52:23 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe; blam
Mash Here...
6 posted on 09/26/2002 9:04:54 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes
" It looks as if ancient peoples of Britain and Ireland could have some connections with both Mediterranean and Eskimo (Inuit) races. "

First time I have heard of the Inuit connection. I have heard of the Basque, Canary Island via Egypt/Greece trek that ties a celtic Princess to the name of some ancient Egyption princess, sister to some pharaoh, who left with a diverse Greco group.
7 posted on 09/26/2002 9:24:58 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: blam
Here's a website I got from an earlier thread (wish I could find that one.)

http://members.aol.com/lochlan2/legends.htm

Click on the Picts/Scots legend for some interesting tidbits.
8 posted on 09/26/2002 9:33:04 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: blam
Comments

The Celts were all over Europe and were a serious competitor to the Roman Empire. Ultimately the Empire dissolved and the Celts remained, so in a sense the Celts won.

9 posted on 09/26/2002 9:38:17 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: Domestic Church
I'd never heard the inuit bit either. Interesting to see if the Human Genome Project can sort any of this out.
10 posted on 09/26/2002 9:49:00 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes
The HGP probably has...I'm worried that the info will be used to cull.
11 posted on 09/26/2002 9:55:33 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Domestic Church
Hmmm. I worked with that project. I've worried the same myself. Course, DNA can be copied like a xerox machine and that's something we could use to our advantage :)
12 posted on 09/26/2002 9:58:25 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Domestic Church
Do a google for 'viking' and black plague and ccr5. Interesting.
13 posted on 09/26/2002 9:59:47 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: RightWhale
>..so in a sense the Celts won

With a current global population of about a BILLION people with Celtic roots that seems like a fair assumption. {ggg}.

14 posted on 09/26/2002 10:08:48 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
To the brave belong all things.
15 posted on 09/26/2002 10:17:12 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: Black Agnes
>To the brave belong all things.

Very good! {ggg}.

16 posted on 09/26/2002 10:18:40 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: Black Agnes
Thanks for the link. I'll read it and comment later. I'm a little hung over today (Not from drink) from 'baby-sitting' the hurricane/TS last night. Later
17 posted on 09/26/2002 10:47:23 AM PDT by blam
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To: Black Agnes
I had to search for CCr5 + plague to get anywhere on the netscape/google engine. Very chilling! I read enough to recognize my fears are valid. Years ago, late 70's, I had a friend, Japanese American, in a PhD/MD program who was working at Wistar in immunology. I discovered from a mutual friend in pathology that this guy now is an eye Doc on the west coast and perhaps this partially explains the reason he switched from research to diagnostic eye work.
18 posted on 09/26/2002 10:54:33 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: Domestic Church
Who were these folks?

Cherchen Man (Some call him Ur-David)

19 posted on 09/26/2002 10:54:48 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
blam, your job is answering questions, not asking them. ;0}
20 posted on 09/26/2002 10:59:10 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: blam
Good luck with that blam! I'm just glad it didn't get organized enough to cause big time damage. The east coast needed the rain & all w/o the damage a hurricane would have caused. Thank G-d this is what we got! :)
21 posted on 09/26/2002 11:01:19 AM PDT by Black Agnes
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To: blam
Ur-David... but the article speaks about it being bronze age (1550-1200) which is off a little from David. David is so close timewise to the break between north & south that it could easily be a lost tribe. I wonder about the origin of the red dye in the fine wool cloth.
22 posted on 09/26/2002 11:18:39 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: RightWhale
The Celts were all over Europe and were a serious competitor to the Roman Empire. Ultimately the Empire dissolved and the Celts remained, so in a sense the Celts won.

Respectfully, this part-celt disagrees. I think the celts failed to leave very much impact, due partly to lack of a written language at the time, and lack of a centralized government.

Also, they didn't survive as the cultural basis for any single nation. For example, modern Ireland is little more celtic, than it is anglo-saxon or norman or viking. Of course, I do grant that the language(s) remains with a not insignificant number of people, mainly in Ireland, Wales and Brittany.

An uncle of mine, born in the mid-1800s in Minnesota, of Canadian-Irish-protestant (eg. Scots) origins, was named Adomnan. This is the name of St. Columba's scribe, another priest at Iona. Scottish and Irish protestants can be good celts, too.

23 posted on 09/26/2002 1:43:42 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: Domestic Church
>This Cherchen woman lived around 1000 B.C. and stood more than 6 feet tall.

That timing indication is right on for the time when David Lived.

>Though found in China, evidence suggests she came from Europe.

I don't know where they get that idea. Not much going on in Europe at that time, but there are lot's of documented happenings with all the tribes of Israel.

24 posted on 09/26/2002 1:50:07 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: truth_seeker
>>RIGHT WHALE:  The Celts were all over Europe...

>Respectfully, this part-celt disagrees.

I agree with you on this part.  There were no CELTS at that time, only Proto-Celts.  (Anything before 610BC or is is Proto-Celtic.  They are related.) While they did seem to have a large impact, there numbers were nothing like the REAL CELTS who followed, a thousand or so years later.  The major Celtic dig at Hallstatt is a good example of that.

>I think the celts failed to leave very much impact,

Gotta disagree on that one.  The Celtic impact on western civilization alone is immense. The CELTS became Western Europe and offspring and their total population today is around 1 BILLION.

>due partly to lack of a written language

The "lack" of written language was deliberate.  It was not that were incapeable of writing as it sometimes alleged, but writing was prohibited by their theology.  Their use of "oral tradition" carried them through quite nicely.

>... lack of a centralized government.

Centralized government didn't really make any sense since they were split into 10 tribes to begin with, and they were scattered all over the European and west Asian frontier. Their population size was over 5 MILLION at the time they were first identified, about 600 BC, at the same place the Lost Tribes of Israel disappeared. Without the internet for communications it would have been tough to hold them all together {ggg}.

>Also, they didn't survive as the cultural basis for any single nation.

True, but they DID survive as the cultural basis for the entire western hemisphere, made up of many tribes and nations, most of them "King-based" in accordance with prophesy.

>For example, modern Ireland is little more celtic, than it is anglo-saxon or norman or viking. Of course, I do grant that the language(s) remains with a not insignificant number of people, mainly in Ireland, Wales and Brittany.

Most of that unfortunately is ethnic and cultural myth.  The Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Vikings WERE also Celts.

I spent time at the University of Dublin (Trinity College) as a Post-Doctoral Student studying Ancient Celtic History.  (Did the same thing at Oxford University a little earlier).  Turns out the Irish and Brits are terribly anal-retentive when it comes to their "Celtic heritage", to the point they virtually ignore the vast Celtic history of Continental Europe, which contains FAR more Celts. 

Much of what we hear today from Ireland and England (Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Brittany, etc.) is designed to encourage the local tourist trade and should not be confused with historic fact.  To really understand the Celts you also have to understand the European Celts.

Please check post #5, especially paragraphs 6 and 7 to see the broader picture of Who Were (and Are Today) The Celts.

-LT
 

25 posted on 09/26/2002 2:30:29 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: truth_seeker
Of course they were not much of a civilization. Pretty much barbarians. Warlike, illiterate. No use for Romans. The Romans had a terrible time keeping them at bay, even in the Alps and northern Italy. Close to military disaster several times.
26 posted on 09/26/2002 2:32:01 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
>Of course they were not much of a civilization. Pretty much barbarians. Warlike, illiterate. No use for Romans. The Romans had a terrible time keeping them at bay,

Maybe you have been reading too much Roman history? {ggg}.

Were the Romans Barbaric with their centuries long blood lust for Christians and others in the Coliseum? Were the Romans Warlike? Illiteracy becomes a relative thing when keeping written records was specifically prohibited.

27 posted on 09/26/2002 2:45:31 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: Black Agnes; blam; LostTribe; RightWhale
If you have a Celt ping list, please add me! Thanks
28 posted on 09/26/2002 3:02:06 PM PDT by PoisedWoman
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To: LostTribe
Were the Romans Barbaric

No, the Romans were civilization itself. If you don't believe that just find a Roman and ask. Oh wait, there aren't any Romans anymore. It doesn't matter, the center of civilization was transferred to the Celts who aren't barbarian anymore, depending on who you ask these days.

29 posted on 09/26/2002 3:02:20 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: LostTribe
">>>Though found in China, evidence suggests she came from Europe. I don't know where they get that idea. Not much going on in Europe at that time, but there are lot's of documented happenings with all the tribes of Israel."

At that exact time, the Celts at Hallstadt were making fabric from exactly the same material (European sheep wool), using exactly the same production techniques and this resulted in clothing and designs exactly the same as at Hallstadt. There was, as yet unexplained, a connection. (Elizabeth Barber, Mummies Of Urumchi--Victor Mair, The Tarim Mummies)

30 posted on 09/26/2002 3:31:27 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
I can answer that in two words, 'my ancestors.'

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Nous nous sommes les sauveurs de la République! Maintenant et Toujours!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! We are the saviors of the Republic! Now and Forever!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

31 posted on 09/26/2002 3:57:39 PM PDT by LonePalm
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To: LonePalm
>I can answer that in two words, 'my ancestors.'

Great Answer! (Now what was the question...?)

32 posted on 09/26/2002 4:05:42 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
>...At that exact time, the Celts at Hallstadt were making fabric from exactly the same material (European sheep wool), using exactly the same production techniques and this resulted in clothing and designs exactly the same as at Hallstadt

Ah, right you are about that my friend. Hallstadt was a boomer to be sure, but mostly later one. The link you refer to is an excellent and I think important one between some Chinese finds and the Celts.

I was thinking of the time of David, which was ~1000 BC. The "Celts" at Hallstadt at that time were of the "Proto-Celt" variety. Related for sure, but displaced in time from the big Celtic invasion from the East which occured later.

33 posted on 09/26/2002 4:11:34 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: RightWhale
>No, the Romans were (LT: Recorded) civilization itself. If you don't believe that just find a Roman and ask.

That's a good answer, if you rely on Roman history about itself. {ggg}.

We know the Celtic population about 600 BC was over 6 MILLION people, and ~10% of the global population. (The global Celtic population today is near 1 BILLION out of a global 6 BILLION so is still ~10%+).

Do you have any commensurate Roman populations and Global percentages with which to make a meaningful comparison?

34 posted on 09/26/2002 4:24:59 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Spooky Finds In German Archaeological Digs

More mysteries.

35 posted on 09/26/2002 4:28:32 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
The population of Rome itself dropped to about 10,000 after Rome fell.
36 posted on 09/26/2002 4:39:23 PM PDT by RightWhale
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To: LostTribe; MeeknMing
"The link you refer to is an excellent and I think important one between some Chinese finds and the Celts."

It's amazing, I think I have made a connection of the Tarim Mummies to a Chinese woman (young and educated) in my local Chinese restaurant.
She was floored (as well as her husband) when I told her that I thought she may be a Hakka Chinese. She said that she was and sat there with her mouth open as I told her how we may be related through the Tarim Basin.
She just sat there shaking her head 'yes' as I told her (what I knew) of the history of the Hakka. She said that all had often wondered where the 'wavy' hair and high nose bridges of their 'clan' had originated.
The Hakka migrated all the way across China and were know by all as the 'friendly guests.' She said she was well aware of the 'guest' part but had not heard it associated with 'friendly.' Her husband, who is from Hong Kong said, 'who are you'? LOL. (Isn't this stuff GREAT!!)

37 posted on 09/26/2002 4:46:38 PM PDT by blam
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To: #3Fan
Over here.
38 posted on 09/26/2002 5:02:22 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Who were the Celts, you ask? They were a Boston basketball team who called themselves the Selts, not the Kelts. I think Teddy Kennedy used to get drunk and go see them play. I think we should get rid of the letter "C" and just use "S" and "K".
39 posted on 09/26/2002 5:26:10 PM PDT by Temple Owl
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To: blam
I read this article a couple years ago. The thing that struck me is how impressed the Romans were with the height of the Celts. The Romans must've been a bunch of Danny Devitos. :^)
40 posted on 09/26/2002 5:30:01 PM PDT by #3Fan
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To: blam
>(Isn't this stuff GREAT!!)

You bet! Does she really look that much different than a traditional Chinese that it was obvious to you?

41 posted on 09/26/2002 5:37:17 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: Temple Owl
>I think we should get rid of the letter "C" and just use "S" and "K".

You have a point in that Celts is really Kelts (correctly pronounced with a hard K), and is derived from "Keltoi". It was the Greek word for these "secret people", The Lost Tribes of Israel.

42 posted on 09/26/2002 5:46:58 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"! Does she really look that much different than a traditional Chinese that it was obvious to you?"

At first, I thought she may have been a Vietnamese but her husband told me she was from Yuanan Province of China prior to our conversation on this subject.
I did gamble a little.
Not many Chinese in this area. I had a lot of Chinese engineers during my days at TI in addition to my travels there in my youth, even started learning the Mandarin Chinese language at one time.

43 posted on 09/26/2002 5:59:11 PM PDT by blam
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To: RightWhale
>The population of Rome itself dropped to about 10,000 after Rome fell.

Yes, I would think it very difficult to define the "operational" size of the Roman Empire at any given time since so much of it was conquered territory in which the inhabitants were never really "Romans".

Contrast that with the huge number of Celts, who as The Lost Tribes of Israel may not have know who they really were, at least retained some semblance of tribal identity even to this day. (As in birds of a feather flock together.)

44 posted on 09/26/2002 7:40:04 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
Thanks for the ping !
45 posted on 09/27/2002 12:10:52 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP
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To: blam
Was the red dye the same as Hallstadt?
46 posted on 09/27/2002 9:18:30 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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To: All
Here is a link to another interesting article & thread about the Celts. The Goths as Celts.
47 posted on 09/27/2002 9:19:15 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
This tale could be historically inaccurate, but I think not:

The five kings of the fifths of Ireland wandered together through the dense forest late one night. A storm fell upon them, and they sought refuge in a hut for the night.

After serving them dinner, the only occupant of the hut, a hag, went from man to man asking each if he would sleep with her.

Each man said no--except the youngest, who said that he would.

As they retired to bed, the hag confided to the young king that she was a witch. Suddenly she transformed herself to the most beautiful woman in the world, and they slept together in ecstatic bliss all night.

She also made him king over the other kings and over all of Ireland, and

This is how Ireland became united!

48 posted on 09/28/2002 4:02:21 AM PDT by Savage Beast
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To: Domestic Church
"Was the red dye the same as Hallstadt?"

Barber and Goode (The Mummies Of Urumchi) said everything was the same. Presumably the dye also.

49 posted on 09/28/2002 5:36:55 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
Amazing. The tidbit about the woman in the Chinese restaurant is great too. Since you have managed to get so many of the history pieces together, there will probably be another catastrophe soon to scatter all the info,lol.
50 posted on 09/28/2002 8:00:22 AM PDT by Domestic Church
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