Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

New Study Finds No Last Common Ancestor of Modern Humans and Neanderthals
SciNews ^ | 10-22-2013

Posted on 10/23/2013 1:22:55 PM PDT by Renfield

A dental study of 1,200 molars and premolars from 13 hominin species shows that no known species matches the expected profile of the last common ancestor of Homo neanderthalensis and anatomically modern Homo sapiens. The study, published online in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, also provides evidence that the lines that led to Neanderthals and modern humans diverged about 1 million years ago – much earlier than previous studies have suggested.

“Our results call attention to the strong discrepancies between molecular and paleontological estimates of the divergence time between Neanderthals and modern humans. These discrepancies cannot be simply ignored, but they have to be somehow reconciled,” said study first author Dr Aida Gómez-Robles from the George Washington University.

Dr Gómez-Robles and colleagues use techniques of morphometric analysis and phylogenetic statistics to reconstruct the dental morphology of the last common ancestor of Neanderthals and modern humans.

They conclude with high statistical confidence that none of the hominins usually proposed as a common ancestor, such as Homo heidelbergensis, H. erectus and H. antecessor, is a satisfactory match....

(Excerpt) Read more at sci-news.com ...


TOPICS: History; Science
KEYWORDS: creation; evolution; genetics; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals; paleoanthropology
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-66 next last

1 posted on 10/23/2013 1:22:55 PM PDT by Renfield
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: SunkenCiv

Ping


2 posted on 10/23/2013 1:23:08 PM PDT by Renfield (Turning apples into venison since 1999!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

Well, we all have to start our family trees all over again


3 posted on 10/23/2013 1:23:45 PM PDT by GeronL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

They are now all in DC..........


4 posted on 10/23/2013 1:24:49 PM PDT by Red Badger (The only way to defeat liberalism is to give them everything they want......then pick up the pieces.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield
In the beginning, God created ...
5 posted on 10/23/2013 1:25:51 PM PDT by knarf (`)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

I didn’t know Ringo Starr was a Neanderthal!


6 posted on 10/23/2013 1:26:31 PM PDT by WayneS (Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

Or...modern humans walked out of the Garden of Eden (even if it wasn’t a literal garden and there weren’t literally two people in it) and the Neanderthals evolved from apes.


7 posted on 10/23/2013 1:26:58 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

These anti-evolution sites are getting real clever. Don’t put anything in the site name about the ax they are grinding and trick folks into going.


8 posted on 10/23/2013 1:34:21 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

“and the Neanderthals evolved from apes.”

Neanderthals are always shown as basically football player Caucasians. Their extra brain size was apparently for a larger visual cortex. (location of size in skulls.) Their eyes apparently had no whites, meaning they were like modern ape eyes. (Eye genes genetically similar to apes.) So, they were most likely nocturnal and had much more developed visual capabilities. They most likely looked like apes and were probably covered with hair like apes. (They survived constant polar temperatures.) Most likely, we were not closely related and probably couldn’t interbreed.


9 posted on 10/23/2013 1:48:40 PM PDT by Gen.Blather
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Or maybe the Neanderthals were the result of hybridization, rather than evolution:

“There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”


10 posted on 10/23/2013 1:58:33 PM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Gen.Blather

Modern Europeans have about 20% Neandertal genes. The rest is from Africa.

Asians have another source of genetic material in addition to Neandertal: Denisovian DNA.

As our ancestors crossed the world, they sometimes made war, but often made love.

All of these must have been close enough to breed, absent gene splicing technology.


11 posted on 10/23/2013 2:13:30 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: GeronL
They conclude with high statistical confidence that none of the hominins usually proposed as a common ancestor, such as Homo heidelbergensis, H. erectus and H. antecessor, is a satisfactory match....

Well, if you take my 1st wife.. .. please.. .. :)

12 posted on 10/23/2013 2:15:56 PM PDT by carlo3b (RUFFLE FEATHERS, and destroy their FEATHER NEST!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: DManA

It’s all so unbelievably stupid. I can’t believe that some parts of the Conservative movement want to declare this to be the line of scrimmage between Left and Right.


13 posted on 10/23/2013 2:32:05 PM PDT by babble-on
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: knarf

AMEN!!


14 posted on 10/23/2013 3:05:28 PM PDT by pallmallman (Q)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

He obviously has not seen the GEICO commercials. :-)


15 posted on 10/23/2013 3:44:58 PM PDT by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Thanks Renfield, no ping, something like it has been posted.
The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve

in local libraries
"Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

16 posted on 10/23/2013 8:48:42 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (http://www.freerepublic.com/~mestamachine/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: DManA; Renfield; SunkenCiv; donmeaker; babble-on; Gen.Blather; GeronL
DManA: "These anti-evolution sites are getting real clever."

Thanks for the tip.
I had assumed there might be something legit going on here.
Once it's understood that this is anti-evolution propaganda, then all makes sense...

The truth is, the common ancestor for humans and Neanderthals (named homo antecestors) has always been thought of as circa one million years ago:

donmeaker: "Modern Europeans have about 20% Neandertal genes.
The rest is from Africa."

20% sounds too high:

babble on: "I can’t believe that some parts of the Conservative movement want to declare this to be the line of scrimmage between Left and Right."

Sadly, there is no debate here between Left and Right, since the Left would never stoop to such a debate.
Any debate, such as it is, comes amongst members of "the Right", such as ourselves.

Dare I say it? An equivalent debate on the Left would be between communists and socialists over the best way to destroy American as we once knew it.
No conservative would seriously enter such a "debate".

17 posted on 10/24/2013 2:04:34 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

Ozzy Ozbourne had his Genes ‘done’ and he was at 20% Neanderthal.


18 posted on 10/24/2013 2:10:54 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

http://discovermagazine.com/2013/march/14-interbreeding-neanderthals


19 posted on 10/24/2013 2:37:09 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker
Great link and article, I read the whole thing with much interest.
But it does not support your claim that 20% of Ozzy's ancestors were Neanderthals in the woodshed. ;-)
Indeed, seems to me that would be the article's lead, if true, and indeed would be widely publicized by now.

Instead, the article repeats the now-standard conclusion that Neanderthals are about 2.5% of European & Asian ancestry, or roughly the equivalent of one great-great-great grandpa.

Now that's something new to contemplate, since it appears we are talking about Neanderthal fathers of children who were accepted and raised amongst modern human families...
So, were these Neanderthal men invited in, to live amongst humans -- i.e., as scouts or guides -- or did young human girls run off to, ahem, the woodshed and come home bearing unexpected gifts?
Is it possible that human males are not the only, er ah, indiscriminate members of our species? Ha!

20 posted on 10/25/2013 1:40:36 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Renfield; donmeaker
By the way, on second reading, I noticed (!) that I had misunderstood what exactly was being studied.
I had assumed, since it's the latest cutting-edge of technology, that these folks were studying DNA extracted from ancient teeth.

No. They were looking at the teeth themselves, morphologically, not at DNA from those teeth.
They found that teeth from homo antecessor did not closely enough match our own to be considered -- in their opinions -- as common ancestors with Neanderthals.

I'd say that's fine, since the truth of the matter seems to be highly complicated, and may-or-may-not directly include homo antecessors.
So this study simply tells us that science is still a long way off from finding definitive answers.

21 posted on 10/25/2013 1:59:38 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

I remembered the 20 percent number from somewhere, and probably got it wrong. iT IS heck getting old.

my apologies.


22 posted on 10/25/2013 6:53:04 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: BroJoeK

I figure the neandertal men thought the homo sapiens girls looked cute...


23 posted on 10/25/2013 6:54:54 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Since apes have one more chromosome than humans (two ape chromosomes are stuck together to make one human chromosome) that would probably be the big dividing line. After that happened, there would be little breeding across that line.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens and Homo Sapiens Neandertalis would both be on the same side of that divide.


24 posted on 10/25/2013 6:57:35 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

Through God all things are possible.


25 posted on 10/25/2013 7:08:44 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

It is a weak theory that demands and depends on persistent miracles but can’t predict when the next one will occur.

That is a problem. It is best to avoid the appearance of having a “Jam yesterday, and Jam tomorrow, but never Jam today” religion or science.


26 posted on 10/25/2013 1:19:20 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>It is a weak theory that demands and depends on persistent miracles but can’t predict when the next one will occur.

You’re right. It’s a weak theory. Since I do not create worlds or populate them with life, I do not have to know all the details of how it is done. Its like automatic transmissions: I know that they work, I know vaguely how they work, and I know a guy who fixes them. That’s all I need to know. I know a guy who creates universes and he’s good at it so I’ll leave the details to him.


27 posted on 10/25/2013 1:30:46 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Any evidence that he created a universe?

Any evidence that he is good at it? What would be ‘good at it’? How would that be different from ‘bad at it’?

You know a guy that fixes universes? How do you know? What universes has he fixed? What distinguishes ‘fixed’ from broken? If the guy who created the Universe was so good, how did it get broken?

Your statements to me seem so foolish that they are not even wrong.


28 posted on 10/27/2013 10:47:21 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>Your statements to me seem so foolish that they are not even wrong.

Thank you for the endorsement. Quite often, it is important to see who is opposition to know how correct one really is. From your comments in the bicycle thread, I recognize you as a vile excuse for a human being, so your lack of faith is expected.


29 posted on 10/27/2013 11:01:17 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

From your comments on the bicycle thread, I identified you as a believer in magical thinking, with no affiliation to conservatism.

The simple rules of cause and effect promote virtue. If you believe in magic, then you can commit any vile act, and then pretend that you didn’t really want the obvious bad consequences to happen because magic should have prevented anything bad from happening.

There is no virtue without reality. There can be no sin, if good acts are punished by magic and bad acts are made good by magic.


30 posted on 10/27/2013 11:07:21 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>From your comments on the bicycle thread, I identified you as a believer in magical thinking, with no affiliation to conservatism.

The correct term is “supernormal” , not magical. And that has nothing to do with conservatism, unless your form of conservatism is unbridled greed and slavery to the elite. (And it wouldn’t surprise me that you do believe in exactly that.)

>>The simple rules of cause and effect promote virtue. If you believe in magic, then you can commit any vile act, and then pretend that you didn’t really want the obvious bad consequences to happen because magic should have prevented anything bad from happening.

Again, I do not believe in magic. But, I do believe in a higher power who holds us accountable in the ultimate rule of cause and effect. Since you believe that life is finite and virtue is just a fear of physical consequences, then you can believe that nothing is sin as long as it doesn’t cause you any pain. Your comments in other threads bears this out.

>>There is no virtue without reality. There can be no sin, if good acts are punished by magic and bad acts are made good by magic.

See above. You believe in worldly consequences. I believe in worldly and eternal consequences. You are a hedonist (i.e. “if it feels good, do it” and the converse, “if it hurts, don’t do it”). I feel sorry for you.


31 posted on 10/27/2013 11:21:56 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

I note that medieval monks were not hedonists, but were not doing very well against the Turks until those darn virtuous and consequential protestants, who had subordinated the magical church to civil authority, rescued them.

Of course the Jihadists of that day and this believed in the supernormal as you put it.


32 posted on 10/27/2013 2:40:16 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

I just don’t see any good consequences from swapping momentum with a truck with me on a bicycle.

Good luck with your miracle if that happens.


33 posted on 10/27/2013 6:16:50 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker
Remember, this is a pre beer era we are talking about. Maybe it was the mushrooms.
34 posted on 10/27/2013 7:38:30 PM PDT by kitchen (Even the walls have ears.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: kitchen
this is a pre beer era we are talking about.

Shudder at the thought of no beer....

35 posted on 10/27/2013 7:48:11 PM PDT by central_va (I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: kitchen

If Aminita muscaria, perhaps, or perhaps Ergotism from fungal infections of wheat. I don’t know the evolutionary time line for either of those.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amanita_muscaria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergotism


36 posted on 10/27/2013 8:35:11 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

http://www.bing.com/search?q=jefferson+bible&qs=AS&pq=jefferson+bible&sc=8-15&sp=1&FORM=QBLH&cvid=bc3d3b34446c411784f0d08231925cda&adlt=strict


37 posted on 10/29/2013 1:38:01 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

Thanks. I’ve seen that. It’s the New Testament without the divinity of Christ.

But, certain paradoxes apply here.

The first is from CS Lewis. We have to assume one of three things about Jesus:

1) He was a liar.
2) He was a madman.
3) He was what he said he was.

If 1 or 2 is true, then Jefferson is a fool for listening to a liar or a madman. If 3 is true, then Jefferson missed out on the true greatness of Jesus.

But, just in case Jesus never made any claims and this is all the work of a traveling band of con artists, known as the Apostles, there is another paradox.

If they were lying, why did they suffer horrible deaths to sustain the lie? Surely, after the stoning of Stephen, they would have melted away into the countryside to resume their simple lives.

So, they saw something that made them willing to die, one at a time after living a life on the run.

Then, comes the third and final paradox: what if they never lived either and this is all a fabrication of the Council of Nicaea. Well, then we have the greatest conspiracy in the history of man, but Jefferson is still a fool for following the teachings a fictitious man, as written by fictitious apostles, compiled by an evil cabal of liars.

Simply put, if you don’t believe the divinity of Jesus, then why even pretend that he is significant. Go be a Buddhist. At least there is external evidence of his existence and his teachings are much more comprehensive.


38 posted on 10/29/2013 1:58:52 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

There is another option. Jesus didn’t write the gospels. Other people did. They wrote them long after the events happened, and had their own motivations for what they included and didn’t include.

John Allegro wrote ‘The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’ describing one potential motivation for the author of some of what became “Mark”.

We know that some parts of Matthew were being added to as late as the 4th Century. Later additions probably have little to do with who or what Jesus may have been.


39 posted on 10/29/2013 3:50:50 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

I was in a Little Tokoyo hotel (in Los Angeles) recently, and they had a Buddhist book, placed neatly alongside the Gideon Bible and the Book of Mormon.

So was Moroni a liar, a madman, or was he what he said he was? Was the book of Mormon a hoax? Is it a great conspiracy, despite Joseph Smith Jr.’s death for his teachings?


40 posted on 10/29/2013 3:54:26 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>There is another option. Jesus didn’t write the gospels.

Jesus did not write the gospels. He never wrote anything, except for some symbols in the sand that no one ever saw.

But, I covered that in my third paradox. If the gospels are a hoax, then why follow the teachings of Jesus at all?

It’s called faith. You have to believe in something. I believe in Christ. If I’m wrong, it hasn’t really cost me anything because I enjoy my time in church and I like my church family. If I’m right, then I have everything to gain.


41 posted on 10/29/2013 4:36:55 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>So was Moroni a liar, a madman, or was he what he said he was? Was the book of Mormon a hoax? Is it a great conspiracy, despite Joseph Smith Jr.’s death for his teachings?

I believe in Jesus Christ, so the Book of Mormon is a hoax and the Koran is an anti-gospel, given to Mohammed by Satan or a demon.

Smith did not passively die. He went to war in Nauvoo and was caught and killed by a mob. Not exactly the same kind of death as the apostles.


42 posted on 10/29/2013 4:40:28 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

>>We know that some parts of Matthew were being added to as late as the 4th Century.

“We” don’t know that. I’d like to see proof of that claim.


43 posted on 10/29/2013 4:43:18 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

43 Posts and not Helen Thomas pic posted.

Whew!


44 posted on 10/29/2013 4:56:18 PM PDT by Rebelbase (Tagline: (optional, printed after your name on post))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield

I'm verklempt.

45 posted on 10/29/2013 5:09:59 PM PDT by Liberty Valance (Keep a simple manner for a happy life :o)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Renfield
They conclude with high statistical confidence that none of the hominins usually proposed as a common ancestor, such as Homo heidelbergensis, H. erectus and H. antecessor, is a satisfactory match....

Homo heidelbergensis - too drunk

H. erectus - too horny

H. antecessor - too puzzled by what "antecessor" might mean

46 posted on 10/29/2013 5:18:16 PM PDT by x
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

I believe I will have a beer this evening.


47 posted on 10/30/2013 10:17:12 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Actually you have everything to lose, as your lack of faith in the flying spagetti monster means you will spend eternity in torment.

By contrast, faith in the flying spagetti monster means you will spend eternity at the great bowl of pasta in the sky, with extra tasty meatballs provided to you magically.

After all you have to have faith in something, why not choose something that tastes good?


48 posted on 10/30/2013 10:20:14 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

I don’t need the flying spaghetti monster. I have the Never-ending Pasta Bowl at Olive Garden.


49 posted on 10/30/2013 10:27:34 AM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: Bryanw92

Good for you!

Best to focus on one pasta bowl at a time.


50 posted on 10/30/2013 3:49:48 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar will soon be repeated.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-66 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
General/Chat
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson