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The Goths and Later Germanic[CELTIC] Invaders
University Web Site ^ | Unk | Unknown

Posted on 09/27/2002 7:07:12 PM PDT by LostTribe

The Goths and Later Germanic Invaders

Little is known about the early history of the Goths before they came into contact with the Romans. What little evidence we have indicates that they probably came from Scandinavia. In the first millennium B. C., they crossed the Baltic Sea and migrated into Northeastern Europe in the area occupied by Poland today. Later, they moved again and made their home in the area north of the Black Sea. Nobody knows for sure what caused these migrations but they became known as the Wanderings of the Peoples. Anthropologists speculate that changes in climate caused the land to produce less food and forage for animals during this period and the excess population had to look for new homes.

The Roman historian Tacitus describes the Germans, of whom the Goths are a group, as a people with nomadic lifestyle and a love for warfare. They looked down on farming as a way of life and actually considered the hardworking farmer lazy because he was not willing to make a living by warfare and plunder. According to Tacitus, the Germans considered laziness to be "acquiring by honest toil that which you might procure by the shedding of blood". It is interesting to note that racism was just as much a part of the human experience 1900 years ago as it is today. In this case, it was a short, olive skinned people who were the dominant culture and the tall blond and redheaded people were considered brutish, ugly and oversized, lacking in intelligence, difficult to civilize, and overly fond of warfare, murder, and pillaging. In spite of his comments, Tacitus does show admiration for the energetic and freedom - loving German people.

The Germans against whom Julius Caesar and the early emperors of Rome fought were different tribes who had been living in the lands across the Rhine frontier before the Goths made their impact on European history. These tribes include the Alemanni and Helvetii we read about in the writings of Caesar and Tacitus. This also holds true for the Germans about whom Tacitus wrote. The Goths were not known to the Romans until over a hundred years after the time of Tacitus. The hunter - gatherer society of the Goths and their aversion to a settled agricultural lifestyle was something they held in common with the Germans about whom Tacitus writes, however. The German tribes against which Marcus Aurelius spent much of his reign defending the empire, living in an army camp and on campaign with his troops may have included some of the first Goths the Romans were to see.

The Goths were well known to the Romans by the middle of the Third Century. The Roman emperor Trajan Decius and his son Herennius Etruscus were killed in battle against the Goths in A. D. 251. Later, a Roman Emperor earned the title "Gothicus" for the way he repeatedly hammered the Goths relentlessly between 268 and 270. This emperor, Claudius II Gothicus, was also killed by the Goths indirectly. The Goths had brought a new epidemic of plague with them, and the stalwart emperor died along with millions of his subjects from the horrible disease. Following the reigns of Aurelian and Probus, The Roman Empire enjoyed a period of security, prosperity, and peace under Diocletian and the family of Constantine. Though there was sporadic fighting with the Goths on the borders of the empire, the Goths did not pose a serious threat to the Roman Empire until 378.

Sometime during the period in which they occupied land north of the Black Sea, the Goths divided themselves into Ostrogoths and Visigoths. Both groups of these German people would travel a different road throughout history and would dominate much of Europe for two hundred fifty years.

The migrations of another people, the Huns, brought pressure upon both Ostrogoths and Visigoths to seek a new home. The Huns were a fierce, warlike nomadic people who came out of the Eastern steppes in what is now Russia and Mongolia. They rode short little ponies and could stay in the saddle for days. They were excellent warriors who could accurately shoot an arrow or use their lariat to rope an enemy while their ponies carried them along at a full gallop. The Goths lived in dread of these short horsemen who annihilated them in every engagement. As a result, Fritigern, King of the Visigoths, begged the Roman emperor Valens to allow his people to settle on empty Roman land in exchange for military service as federated troops in the Roman army. Valens' imperial agents and military officers mishandled the crossing of the Danube, exploiting and humiliating the proud Goths. The Visigoths did not have long to wait for revenge. They utterly defeated the Roman army at Adrianople in 378 and killed Valens as well. For the next several years, there was not much the Romans could do, or dared to do about the Visigoths in the Danubian provinces.

After Theodosius I ascended the throne in 379, he set about devising a plan to deal with the Visigoths, doing the best he could under the circumstances. He offered them land on which to settle and enrolled them as federated troops. The process was a long one of negotiation and selecting military leaders whom he could trust. The most famous and effective of these was Flavius Stilicho, who welded the different groups of barbarian and federated groups, as well as the few Italians who remained in the Roman military into a magnificent fighting machine. This new Roman army was put severely to the test at the battle of the River Frigidus in 394. The Theodosian army attacked the well dug in army of Arbogast and the puppet Eugenius. The odds were not good for Theodosius as he was advancing from the East and in a vulnerable position. A violent wind storm which legend says was sent by God blew dust and rain in the faces of Arbogast’s army and Theodosius won a decisive victory. Stilicho and a young Visigothic general named Alaric who was to dominate the military scene for the next sixteen years played a major part in this battle.

Soon after Theodosius' death in 395, Alaric began making trouble for the Roman Empire with the his army of Visigothic troops. At times he appeared to be functioning as a federated Roman general and at other times as a Visigothic king. In A. D. 410, he took the city of Rome and actually marched an army of Visigothic troops through the gates of The Eternal City. Alaric stayed for three days to loot and pillage, though he had such respect for the city he had humbled that he did not allow his troops to massacre the population and destroy the buildings. Some buildings were burned, however.

During the Fifth Century, the Western Roman Empire was gradually dismantled by Visigoths, Ostrogoths, and Vandals. In many cases, Roman territory was not seized by an invading foreign army. Usually it was a high ranking Gothic or Vandal commander in Roman military service who set himself up as governor of a province while a weak Roman emperor did little to stop him. In 418, the Visigoths were actually given large tracts of the best land in Gaul to form their independent kingdom of Toulouse.

The situation continued to get worse for the Western Roman empire throughout the rest of the Fifth Century. Rome was again sacked in 455 by Germans, this time it was Gaiseric the Vandal. He stayed for two weeks and did much more damage than Alaric had done forty five years before. Gaiseric had invaded the rich Roman province of Africa in 429. His descendants held the province until the Eastern Roman general Belisarius drove the Vandals out in 533 and reclaimed Africa for the emperor Justinian.

It was the German master general Odovacer who in A. D. 476 finally put an end to the farce that the Western Roman empire had become over the last twenty one years. He didn't wage a mighty battle or sack a city, killing a brave Roman emperor who defended his throne to the last. He just provided a nice villa for a young boy and told him to retire there because he was no longer emperor. Odovacer sent the imperial regalia, diadem, orb and sceptre to the Eastern Emperor Zeno in Constantinople.

In 493, Zeno sent the Ostrogothic general Theoderic to depose Odovacer and rule Italy in the name of the Eastern Roman empire. Theoderic founded a dynasty that lasted until 526.

In the early Fifth Century, a Visigothic kingdom had been established in Spain. When the Moors drove them out in 711, the Visigoths finally disappeared from history as a separate people and were assimilated into the Frankish kingdoms of Europe which later became modern France and Germany.


TOPICS: History; Miscellaneous; Outdoors; Reference; Religion; Travel
KEYWORDS: archaeology; bannedforgoodreason; celts; epigraphyandlanguage; flake; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; goths; helixmakemineadouble; history; huns; israelites; losttribesisrael; nutcase; nutjob; nuttery; romanempire; romans; rome; visigoths
An interesting history of the Celtic involvement in the Roman Empire in early AD. The Romans wrote much of the history so their side can be presumed to be favored.

Note the references to Goths, Germans, Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Franks, Helvetii and other asst. "barbaric Tribes". These are all references to Celtic Tribes. [The exception is the Huns.]

The Germans of that time were not the Germans of today, but Celts of the Germani Celtic tribe which provided the name "Germany".

1 posted on 09/27/2002 7:07:12 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe; blam; William Terrell
The part about the Goths aimlessly wandering around and maybe coming from Scandinavia is pretty much "party line". Pretty thin gruel.

Also, the author seems a bit perplexed about the Goths migrating to "north of the Black Sea". I suspect it's mostly a matter of confusion in the dating of some Celtic finds that has their direction of travel reversed. We know the Celts initially came FROM the region of the Black Sea and the Caucasus Mountains many hundreds of years earlier. That is why they are called "Caucasians".

2 posted on 09/27/2002 7:16:24 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: PaulKersey
Bump.
3 posted on 09/27/2002 7:51:54 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
We would be remiss to leave out the effect of the Han Chinese and their impact on this period. There were large numbers of Caucasians (proto-Celts) and others who were routed out of the Tarim and Turpin basins and fled all the way to the Black Sea area.This happened in the 100-200AD period.

"As in the Former Han, a strong centralized government was restored and powerful reforms were instituted in the early years of the Later Han; these reforms led to an astonishing recovery of a population that had been devastated by war and famine. As in the former Han, this period of creative reform and restoration was immediately followed by an aggressive military expansion. In 50 AD, the Later Han government allied itself with some Hsiung Nu tribes and, forty years later, marched across the Gobi desert and attacked the northern Hsiung Nu. So effective was this campaign that it provoked massive migrations of Hsiung Nu west into central Asia and north into Russia; these migrations eventually pushed the Hsiung Nu all the way to Europe and finally Rome: these nomads were known to the West as the "Huns." The military expansion of the Chinese empire would push the Chinese all the way to the Caspian Sea; this mind-boggling control of large parts of inner Asia established the greatest trade route in the ancient world: the Silk Road."

4 posted on 09/27/2002 8:01:51 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
The Goths
5 posted on 09/27/2002 8:09:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
I guess that "Gothic" architecture and "Gothic" lettering are connected, but am curious to know more.
6 posted on 09/27/2002 8:30:54 PM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Sam Cree
>I guess that "Gothic" architecture and "Gothic" lettering are connected, but am curious to know more

Beats me. Let us know when you find out. {ggg}.

7 posted on 09/27/2002 9:03:46 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
>According to their own traditions, the Goths originated in a land called 'Gothiscandza', identified as southern Scandinavia.

Sounds like Denmark or lower Sweden.

>It was population pressure which, according to their legends, caused them to move en masse to ... Poland.

Must have been really crowded there.  Sure, you betcha.

>Unfortunately, there is no archaeological evidence to support the legend.

Oh, well. They always were great story tellers.

>What does seem to have happened is that there was a slow, steady drift from the Oder-Vistula region into the Ukraine, or Scythia as it was known to the ancients.

Probably went back there to visit their old Uncle BjÖrn. {ggg}. But it is interesting, most everywhere they go they run into other tribes of Celts. Was there any one else there in any numbers besides Celts?

8 posted on 09/27/2002 9:12:48 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
What little evidence we have indicates that they probably came from Scandinavia.

I love these statements. How did they get to Scandinavia, migrate down from the North Pole where they spontaniously sprang into being from ice crystals?

9 posted on 09/27/2002 10:03:39 PM PDT by William Terrell
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To: William Terrell
>How did they get to Scandinavia, migrate down from the North Pole where they spontaniously sprang into being from ice crystals?

HA! That's no worse than the "widely accepted" premise that the Celts suddenly sprung up from nowhere to appear in Austria and Switzerland. So what were they, Swiss elves on hyperpowerful Austrian beer?

10 posted on 09/27/2002 10:31:07 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Good morning bump.
11 posted on 09/28/2002 5:41:52 AM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe

Hi, LostTribe. Here's the first result from a search:

Where does the term "gothic" come from?

There is a lot of justified confusion about this term. It originally referred to some of the German tribes that would ultimately participate in the sacking of Rome. The term "gothic" became a synonym for uncivilised and barbaric. (The term "vandal" also comes from a German tribe name.)

In the Middle Ages, large and ominous cathedrals were built in the Ogive style. Baroque historians would later refer to the style as "gothic" to indicate that they found it unrefined and tasteless. However, the joke never got off the ground. Instead of changing popular perception of the architecture, they succeeded only in changing the popular definition of the word. People assumed "gothic" meant "dark and ominous" because that's what the Ogive style evokes.

Next, we arrive at the macabre and mysterious literature of the late 19th century (Mary Shelly's Frankenstein and Bram Stoker's Dracula, for example). The term "gothic" was extended to it because of the ominous imagery associated with the churches. This expanded its meaning further to include the macabre. What do you mean by {ggg}?

12 posted on 09/28/2002 7:04:10 AM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Sam Cree
>The term "gothic" became a synonym for uncivilised and barbaric.

It all depends on who writes the history, doesn't it.

>What do you mean by {ggg}

{ggg} is a small GRIN.  {gggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg} is a BIG toothy GRIN.

13 posted on 09/28/2002 8:28:49 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
I think the "gothic" cathedrals of Europe represent some of the most beautiful architecture ever designed by man. Even though they're not really Gothic, apparently.

Somehow I'd never made the connection between the Goths and "gothic" before.

Also didn't realize that the Goths were Celtic. I read last year a book on the Celtic empire...it surprised me, I'd had no idea it had once been such an important and extensive culture.
14 posted on 09/28/2002 10:27:39 AM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Sam Cree
>Also didn't realize that the Goths were Celtic.

It is interesting how few people make the connection between the many European "Tribes" and the Celts.  It's the way history is taught I suppose.  Historians seem long on analysing the trees but are often blind when it comes to finding the obvious forest which surrounds them.

>I read last year a book on the Celtic empire...it surprised me, I'd had no idea it had once been such an important and extensive culture.

Taking from my Freeper Home Page at:  HISTORY:

These Millions of Celts grew to become Tens, then Hundreds of Millions as they migrated in waves westward and northwest to Galatia, Ephesus, Corinth, Thessalonika, Phillipi, Collosse, to what is today Hallstatt, Austria and Neuchatel, Switzerland (where exist major Celtic digs and museums) and beyond, to totally dominate Northern and Western Europe. These Celts (also as Cimmerians, Scythians, Danaoi, Massagetae, Milesians, Masilia, Sarmatians, Germani, Goths, Franks, Gauls, Lombards, Belgae, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vandals, Danes, Normans, and other assorted "Barbarians") are the rootstock of today’s Europeans and Americans who became the backbone of global Christianity.

The Celts were clearly not just scuffy little bands of timid Europeans hiding in the woods and looking to stay out of trouble with the "primary" inhabitants.  The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day.

-LT

15 posted on 09/28/2002 10:38:35 AM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day."

That makes it sound like all of us, except for the Latins, are some sort of Celtic descendants. My blood for instance, is Dutch, German, Irish, + Scot, Welsh, a little English. I'm married to a Jewish lady of Russian and Hungarian descent. I suppose that's all Celtic blood of one type or another.

It makes it sound like any northern European type is Celtic.

But do you really think that such a small group as the Lost Tribes could have generated what became the rather large population of basically all the peoples of Northern Europe?

16 posted on 09/28/2002 10:52:16 AM PDT by Sam Cree
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To: Sam Cree
"The Celts WERE the primary inhabitants of Europe, to this day."

That makes it sound like all of us, except for the Latins, are some sort of Celtic descendants.

The vast majority of Northern and Western Europe are descended from the Celts.  The English/Irish/Welch/Scottish/Cornwall view of the Celts is MUCH too narrow.  It ignores the vast population of Celts on the continent, but it is good for Anglo-tourism. {ggg}.  Celtic study on the continent (mostly NOT in the English language) concentrates on early Celtic history, pretty much ignoring England.  Ah, well...

>My blood for instance, is Dutch, German, Irish, + Scot, Welsh, a little English.

Those countries all have Celtic origins, including Germany, which is named after the "Germani" Celtic tribe.  However the Germani were driven out to the North and West by Slavic tribes so Germany today is not considered primarily Celtic.

>It makes it sound like any northern European type is Celtic.

No, but certainly the overwhelming majority in northern and western Europe.  That is now changing of course with the heavy influx of "immigrants" from the east and south.

>But do you really think that such a small group as the Lost Tribes could have generated what became the rather large population of basically all the peoples of Northern Europe?

The myth there is "...such a small group".  Take a look at the population numbers cited in my FR Profile site. Click Here.  We are talking about a Northern Kingdom/Lost Tribes of Israel population of roughly 10% of the GLOBAL population. That is not a "small group" likely to become "Lost" or assimilated.  With Celtic offspring today approaching 1 BILLION people, that 10% number is still in line with 3,000 years ago.

Some people find it distressing that the Southern Kingdom/Jewish population today is only 11(?) million or so while their Northern Kingdom cousins growth followed the general growth of the rest of the global population.  It comes as a shock to realize is it not the Northern Kingdom which almost disappeared, but the Southern Kingdom.  Gods punishment works in mysterious ways.
17 posted on 09/28/2002 12:37:58 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
Great article. Shows how extensive the Celts were in Europe. Looks like European history is mostly about Celts fighting Celts, except for the Romans and some Slavics of course!
18 posted on 09/28/2002 1:33:12 PM PDT by PaulKersey
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To: LostTribe
Now you've done it. (I have been busy in Southern China looking for the Xiongnu people and now you have distracted me)

I have looked into my library for things Celtic and have found a book by Henri Hubert titled, The History Of The Celtic People. It was originally published in 1934 as The Rise Of The Celts and The Greatness And Decline Of The Celts. As I was flipping through the book, I found an article from the Smithsonian, May 1993, by Dora Jane Hamblin, titled Once Maligned, Celtics Are Now Touted As The First Europeans stuck in the pages.

The 1993 Smithsonian article has some splendid pictures of Celtic art. I tried to pull them up on the 'net' without success. Might you try?

I've lost the trail on the Xiongnu people so, I guess I'll read Henri's book. lol.

19 posted on 09/28/2002 3:48:10 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
BTW, I suspect that the Xiongnu people may be related to the Huns and Picts.
20 posted on 09/28/2002 3:52:35 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>I have looked into my library for things Celtic

Let me know what you think of Huberts book. It's long out of print, but maybe available...

I checked the Smithsonian site archives but no hit on the article, which sounds interesting...

21 posted on 09/28/2002 5:39:04 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: #3Fan; farmfriend; JudyB1938; PoisedWoman; Ernest_at_the_Beach
Remember this one?

Archaeologists Find Celts In Unlikely Spot: Central Turkey

22 posted on 09/28/2002 5:41:33 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
"I checked the Smithsonian site archives but no hit on the article, which sounds interesting..."

I found it by searching on the Authors name but could not open(?) it.

23 posted on 09/28/2002 5:44:44 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>Remember this one?

Yep, that is a good thread! I remember is as the New York Times Christmas Day article on The Celts, and have cited it frequently.

24 posted on 09/28/2002 5:47:23 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
The History Of The Celtic People (Henri Hubert)

"Book Oasis via Antiqbook London, Bracken Books, 1992. H Cloth, First Combined Edition. 8vo - over 7¾" - 9¾" tall. Blue cloth boards with gilt lettering on spine. Pages lightly tanned. Jacket has a few scuffs on it. Push aside the faddishness, and find out who the Celts *really* are! . Very Good/J Very Good. $28.00 "

25 posted on 09/28/2002 5:50:16 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I just located a copy. Will give a look see when it arrives and write a little book review. {ggg}.
26 posted on 09/28/2002 5:53:30 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
>I found it by searching on the Authors name but could not open(?) it.

Pse let me know how you like the article, and whether it is worth my trying to pursue a copy.

27 posted on 09/28/2002 6:57:47 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"Pse let me know how you like the article, and whether it is worth my trying to pursue a copy."

I didn't keep the whole article, only the pictures of the art. I knew that when I got around to reading Henri's book that they would have more meaning.

Also, Presently on The History Channel, A History Of Britain

28 posted on 09/28/2002 7:09:55 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>The History Channel

Looks like a multi-part series. The are already in 1,500AD. Musta missed the good part about the CELTS in a previous program.

29 posted on 09/28/2002 8:20:57 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: blam
BTW, I suspect that the Xiongnu people may be related to the Huns and Picts.

That sounds complicated to me. Are not the Picts just another tribe of celts? And the Huns are Slavics?

30 posted on 09/29/2002 2:04:27 PM PDT by PaulKersey
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To: PaulKersey
>Are not the Picts just another tribe of celts?

"The Romans called this pre-Celtic people Pictii, or "Painted," although Claudius' words are proof that (as claimed by many historians), the ancient Picts actually tattooed their bodies with designs. To the non-Roman Celtic world of Scots and Irish and the many tribes of Belgic England and Wales they were known as "Cruithni" and for many centuries they represented the unbridled fury of a people who refused to be brought under the yoke of Rome or any foreign invader."
 

31 posted on 09/29/2002 2:10:54 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: PaulKersey
"The Huns themselves were a people of mystery and terror. Arriving on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century, riding their war horses out of the great steppes of Asia, they struck fear into Germanic Barbarians and Romans alike. Some scholars believe that they had earlier moved against the Chinese Empire but were turned away and swept towards Rome instead. As they approached the Black Sea and conquered the Ostrogoths, they also drove the Visigoths across the Danube into the Roman Empire and caused the crisis that led to the astounding defeat of the Roman army under the Emperor Valens at Adrianople in 378 AD."

There was a Chinese 'connection' with both the Huns and Picts.

32 posted on 09/29/2002 3:16:07 PM PDT by blam
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To: PaulKersey
"Many say that Picts are just a Celtic tribe with a strong element of earlier nations. But anthropological information we have opposes to that, and so does the linguistic material (see below). We know from Ancient Greek and Latin works that Celts who invaded Italy in the 5th century and Greece in the 3rd, were tall, blue-eyed and fair-haired men. Greeks even thought they were Hyperboreans, northern people, characters of several Greek myths. As for those Picts Romans met in Britain they were short and dark-headed.

There also appears to be a connection to the Inuits. There is an Asian component.

33 posted on 09/29/2002 3:23:49 PM PDT by blam
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To: LostTribe
""The Romans called this pre-Celtic people Pictii, or "Painted," although Claudius' words are proof that (as claimed by many historians), the ancient Picts actually tattooed their bodies with designs.

Remember that Oetzi (The Iceman), Cherchen Man and The Beauty Of Loulan all had tattoos. Oetzi's tattoos actually match up to/with the well known Chinese acupuncture points. (Yes, everyone was suprized)

Oetzi's copper axe redated the copper age by 1,000 years older as well as indications of acupuncture points by about the same amount.

34 posted on 09/29/2002 4:41:56 PM PDT by blam
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To: PaulKersey
Xiongnu and Yuezhi
(These folks interfaced with the Caucasian (proto-Celtics) folks (The Mummies Of Urumchi) found in east central China, Tarim and Turpin Basins.
35 posted on 09/29/2002 5:00:56 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
As for those Picts Romans met in Britain they were short and dark-headed.

Wonder how the Romans knew they were Picts? Like, did they carry a sign? Seriously, those people don't sound like Celts to me, not based on all other descriptions of them. The Dark part might work, but if the Romans called them Short they must have been REALLY short.

36 posted on 09/29/2002 5:48:10 PM PDT by PaulKersey
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To: blam; PaulKersey; William Terrell

The Scythians - Seventh Century BCE

The vast areas of rolling grassland and steppe extending from China to the Ukraine was not settled by farming peoples until they were able to develop a culture enabling them to survive in an environment with extreme contrasts of climate and relatively infertile soils. 

[LT: This suggests there was no other group in the vast region large enough to survive by raising food crops. That would seem to make these Scythian/Celts the first inhabitants of this huge area with a substantial population.]

The Scythians were the first great pastoral nomadic group in Central Asia. In the latter half of the seventh century BCE they were reported as allies  [LT: Willing allies, or a conquered people?]

of the Assyrians against the Medes, who were rising to power in northwestern Persia, 

[LT: These "Lost Tribes of Israel"/Scythians then turned on their Assyrian captors and joined the Medes and Persians to defeat the Assyrians and achieve their freedom ~610 BC.]

and the Cimmerians, a little-known [LT: celtic] people who preceded the Scythians in southern Russia. The Greek historian Herodotus wrote that in the fifth century BCE the Scythians ruled from the Don River, in present southern Russia, to the Carpathian Mountains, in central Europe. They remained in power until displaced by the Sarmatians [LT: more celts] in the second and first centuries BCE. They had no written language.

A vast territory is needed to support herds of domestic stock. The Scythians or steppe people were (initially) nomads relying on the horse and wagon for mobility, living in stout felt tents, and subsisting largely on horse's milk and cheese, as well as on food from hunting and fishing. When well established, the tribes in the west of the Scythian empire became agriculturists who raised wheat, some of it for export. Eastward the Scythians stayed as pastoral normads; among these nomads was the ruling tribe, which the Greeks called the Royal Scythes. In the spring and summer they ranged about the open steppe seeking pasture for their herds. In the winter they camped along protected river valleys. The men rode on horseback, the women on cattle-drawn wagons on which their felt tents were set. Polygamy was practiced, at least among families of chiefs, and the son inherited his father's wives. The Scythians never washed in water, but for ritual purification they had a kind of vapor bath. Men wore trousers tucked into soft boots. In fighting, the Scythes used bows and arrows from horseback, and followed the guerrilla tactics typical of central Asian nomads.

The Russian archaeologist Sergei Ivanovich Rudenko, who did four large excavations at Pazyryk in northeastern Siberia between 1947-9. He reports, that the chiefs of Pazyryk were elaborately tattooed, wore woolen and leather clothes, and employed skillful artists to adorn their horse trappings and harnesses with elaborate stylized animal art. After death the body of an ordinary Scythian was drawn in a wagon among the tribal camps for forty days, [LT: Why 40 days?] then buried. The corpse was laid on the bottom of a small log tomb, usually on its back, head towards the east and arms and legs extended.

For a king, or high official, the funeral cortege was more elaborate. On burial the body was placed in a special coffin made of a larch tree trunk and placed into a large log square pit or barrow. The body was embalmed or mummified. Concubines and attendants were sacrificed and laid beside the royal corpse with full compliment articles (Chinese silk and mirrors, jewelry). Fine chariots and valuable horses were killed and placed into the barrows as well. Because of lack of space their bodies often lay in a shaft one on top of another, dressed with bridle, saddle and head decorations. Tombs are still scattered throughout southern Russia and the Crimea, the Caucasus, and Anatolia. Modern archeology have recovered artifacts of metal treasures, funeral ornaments and furnishings of elaborate burials. Whether of their own manufacturer, or the work of Greek craftsmen, Scythian gold ornaments attest to what an ancient Roman author calls the "Scythian lust for gold." Later tombs dated from the sixth century BCE include the Sarmatians as well as the Scythians.  [LT: These dates are just after the MILLIONS from The Lost Tribes of Israel disappeared in this same area.]

The Scythians lived to the north of the well-traveled trade routes we call today "The Silk Routes." Their territory was constantly being explored and sometimes colonized by settled farmers, whose own lands were becoming overpopulated or overgrazed. Enormous areas of steppe was needed to support even a small band of horsemen, for just a slight increase in population could drastically affect the food supplies of the original inhabitants. The result was constant displacement of populations as the Scythians sought to expand their shrinking territory to accommodate their own population pressures. [LT: This suggests tremendous pressure on the 5 MILLION+ refugees from the Northern Kingdom to disperse.] 


            FROM   http://www.silk-road.com/artl/scythian1.shtml   by Irma MAX

37 posted on 09/29/2002 7:17:21 PM PDT by LostTribe
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38 posted on 09/29/2002 7:32:40 PM PDT by Mo1
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To: LostTribe
Can you find the Scythian homeland in the Altai mountains on this map? What do you see just below it?


39 posted on 09/29/2002 8:11:24 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>Can you find the Scythian homeland in the Altai mountains on this map? What do you see just below it?

The TARIM BASIN. {applause}.

40 posted on 09/29/2002 8:39:42 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
If you claim the Scythians as Celts or proto-Celts, these folks should be included also, no?

The Beauty Of Loulan

Loulan=Kroran in Chinese (Also, notice the mention of wheat, wheat = agriculture, no?)

41 posted on 09/29/2002 8:56:54 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
>>>This basin, full of pits of salt (where nothing can grow), became a large cemetery. The greatest mystery is, "What were Caucasians doing in China at this time?"

Aha, the old "Salt Pits" gambit, just like what preserved the huge number of Celts at Hallstatt, Austria.

42 posted on 09/29/2002 9:03:25 PM PDT by LostTribe
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To: LostTribe
"Aha, the old "Salt Pits" gambit, just like what preserved the huge number of Celts at Hallstatt, Austria."

Maybe the salt trade IS the Hallstatt/Tarim connection. (I'm talking about the 1,000BC fabric similarities)

43 posted on 09/29/2002 9:17:04 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam; LostTribe
Yes. Of course I don't believe that all the invading tribes were Celts. I think this makes a lot of sense.
44 posted on 10/01/2002 4:54:09 PM PDT by #3Fan
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Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution.
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45 posted on 04/19/2005 11:03:15 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (FR profiled updated Monday, April 11, 2005. Fewer graphics, faster loading.)
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46 posted on 06/16/2008 7:40:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_________________________Profile updated Friday, May 30, 2008)
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

I see some appropriate keywords up there.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


47 posted on 07/21/2012 9:26:32 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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