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Ancient Map Of Africa Poses Questions
cooltech.iafrica ^ | 11-12-2002

Posted on 11/12/2002 8:21:38 AM PST by blam

Ancient map of Africa poses questions

The unveiling in South Africa's parliament on Monday of a replica of an ancient Chinese map of the then known world which includes a recognisable outline of Africa is raising intriguing questions of which foreigners first explored the continent.

"The idea is to take us beyond what we have been ... brainwashed into believing" declared Speaker Frene Ginwala at the opening of the exhibition, which includes other maps and rock art.

The "Da Ming Hun Yi Tu", the Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire, dates back to 1389, decades before the first European voyages to Africa.

Among recognisable features are the Nile River and South Africas Drakensberg mountain range.

The map also shows a great lake, covering almost half the continents land mass. Researchers suggest it may have been drawn on the basis of an Arab legend that stated "farther south from the Sahara Desert is a great lake, far greater than the Caspian Sea".

(The biggest lake in Africa, Lake Victoria, is in fact only a fifth of the size of the Caspian Sea.)

"We have the worlds best researchers working on it," said parliaments senior researcher Heindri Bailey, who was hesitant about drawing conclusions from it.

"Until we are able to gain the knowledge we wont speculate on it."

The original of the map is housed in Beijing where it has remained wrapped up, sealed and stowed behind a locked door since the fall of Chinas last emperor in 1924. Fewer than 20 people have had access to it since then.

The digitised reproduction of the map on silk is almost four metres (around 12 feet) high and more than four metres across.

Place names are written mostly in Manchu, a now virtually extinct language, and still in need to be translated.

Karen Harris of the historical and heritage studies department at the University of Pretoria said that as early as the 1st century AD records had been found in China mentioning places in Africa.

"They had the capability, definitely," she said. "Theres not so much evidence to prove it, but it isnt a closed book yet."

A picture dated 11 November 2002 shows a detail on the Da Ming Hun Yi Tu (the Amalgamated Map of the Great Ming Empire) dating back to 1389 which is arguably the oldest world map in existence that accurately reflects the African continent.

Harris said that at the time the Chinese were seeking tribute and not trade for the emperor and therefore would not have set up bases or left behind significant markings as was the case with Europeans.

This, she said, would make it difficult to uncover evidence in support of Chinese having been there, adding: "You wouldnt find human remains because the Chinese took their bodies back to their ancestral lands."

But Bailey said some circumstantial evidence existed in South Africa to suggest the Chinese had navigated around Africa long before Bartolomeu Dias rounded the Cape of Good Hope in 1488.

"Chinese pottery has been found in (South Africas northern) Limpopo Province dating back to around the 13th century and there's rock art in the Eastern Cape depicting Chinese-looking characters," Bailey said.

British amateur researcher Gavin Menzies, a submarine engineer, argues in "1421", a book which came out this month, that Chinese admiral Zheng He circumnavigated the globe between 1421 and 1423, 100 years before the crew of Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan, who was killed en route.

Zheng He, a eunuch who never travelled with fewer than 300 ships, the biggest carrying 1000 people, is long known to have visited Asia, India, Gulf countries, and Somalia, from where he took back giraffes and lions.

The official history also mentions "Franca" (France and Portugal) and Holland, with the Hollanders described as tall people with red hair and beards.

To meet them in their homeland, Zheng He would have had to sail round the southern tip of Africa.

This is the first time that a copy of the map has been shown outside China. The original is a derivative of an even earlier one dated 1320, which was believed to have been destroyed.

That was before Zheng He's birth (he lived from 1371 to 1435), which deepens the mystery.

Some of the later European maps on show in parliament illustrate dragons, snakes and one-eyed monsters in the inland regions.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 1421; africa; ancient; ancientnavigation; archaeology; carthage; ccp; china; epigraphyandlanguage; gavinmenzies; ggg; godsgravesglyphs; gorilla; hanno; history; map; nonsense; olmecs; phoenicia; questions; shang
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To: Lael
Even the US Air Force is baffled by it.

How so?

21 posted on 11/12/2002 11:48:12 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: syriacus
Well, the Chinese keep murdering the girl babies to their own detrement. Don't they know that Chinese boys need Chinese girls for brides? Not very smart, are they?
22 posted on 11/12/2002 12:08:45 PM PST by Marysecretary
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To: blam
what-ever happened to Atlantis is related to the end of the Ice Age

According to Graham Hancock, there were 3 distinct massive floods during the end of the Ice Age. Any one of them destroyed coastal cities worldwide, so it might be that Atlantis was only one of the countless flood stories. These floods are pretty well dated, although I don't have his book handy to tell you the dates right now.

23 posted on 11/12/2002 12:14:04 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: RightWhale
The Phoenicians sailed around Africa more than 2000 years ago, and they did it clockwise, whereby the winds would have been in their favor. It took 4 years, with annual stops to grow a crop for the next year's provisions. Sounds very plausible to me. There was no economic justification for the voyage, so it was never done again.
24 posted on 11/12/2002 12:16:15 PM PST by Grand Old Partisan
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To: Gargantua
. Deposits of jade are found in the Orient, not Mexico.

Sorry, but deposits of jade in Mexico have been known for centuries.
25 posted on 11/12/2002 12:18:48 PM PST by MineralMan
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To: RightWhale; All
Even the US Air Force is baffled by it.

How so?

Graham Hancock's book, FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS, opens Chapter One-"A Map Of Hidden Places"-with a letter from the 8th Reconnaissance Technical Squadron (Strategic Air Command), United States Airforce, Westover Airforce Base, Massachusetts, dated 6 July 1960 to one Professor Charles H. Hapgood at Keene College, New Hampshire, responding to a request from said professor to evaluate certain sections of the genuine 1513 [Turkish Admiral] Piri Reis World Map.

Quoting Harold Z. Olmeyer, Lt. Colonel, USAF Commander, in part..."The claim that the lower part of the Map portrays the Princess Martha Coast of Queen Maude Land Antartica, and the Palmer Penninsula, is reasonable. We find this is the most logical, and in all probability the correct interpretation of the map.

"The geographical detail...agrees very remarkably with the results of the seismic proflile made across the top of the ice-cap by the Swedish-British Antartic Expedition of 1949.

"This indicates the coastline had been mapped before it was covered by the ice-cap." [italics in the original]

After noting that the Ice-cap is now about one mile thick, the Commander concludes:

"We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513." [emphasis added]

26 posted on 11/12/2002 7:39:04 PM PST by Lael
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To: Gargantua
The ancient Aztec ruins in Mexico's Yucatan have statuary with jade eyes... ostensibly as a result of very early trade with the Chinese. Deposits of jade are found in the Orient, not Mexico.

There are massive deposits of high quality jade in the Americas. There are also huge quantities of jade in the American West.
27 posted on 11/12/2002 7:43:30 PM PST by aruanan
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To: Lael
"We have no idea how the data on this map can be reconciled with the supposed state of geographical knowledge in 1513." [emphasis added]

Heh heh heh. Ah...sweet mysteries of life.
28 posted on 11/12/2002 7:45:59 PM PST by aruanan
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To: blam
I can't remember the source (help here appreciated) but years back I read about Columbus having a lot of evidence and anecdotes from a wide variety of sources to guide him in his conclusions and hence quest. One thing I vaugely remember is an oriental body washing up in Ireland and hearing of this he figured the Orient could not be out of reach from the west. Perhaps this body was a Chinese sailor washed overboard.

Anybody remember the report of Columbus actually making his journey a few years earlier than his trip from Spain? A pope had sent him out and even had an inscription on his sarcophagus that he had sponcered the discovery. Also an Arab map c.1488 showed the western hemisphere and mentioned a new world discovered by the indfidel from Genoa, a reference to the earlier voyage. Apparently that Pope died and a Spaniard one took over and steered Columbus to his King and Queen who sent him out again this time in their name. This move wasn't a petty thing for personal glory rather it had to do with legal claim for the plunder which went to Spain and not the church or Italy. I'll try and find that article.

29 posted on 11/12/2002 8:22:57 PM PST by u-89
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To: u-89
Yup. I've heard of all these things. I even had an article that was titled something like, "Did Americans Discover Europe,"but I can't find it.

I also think there was a report of Inuits visiting Scotland before Columbus's trip.

30 posted on 11/12/2002 8:48:34 PM PST by blam
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To: SauronOfMordor; Marysecretary
Invade Pakistan, kill all the Muslim men, take the women

Not very smart, are they?

You've got me thinking....

The Chinese can look forward to a population "implosion." At a certain point they won't have enough fellow countrymen to sell their products to. Since they are the world's biggest market they can expect a stagnant economy.

I'll bet they encourage in vitro fertilization and artificial placentas when they figure out what they have done to themselves.

31 posted on 11/13/2002 5:32:21 AM PST by syriacus
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To: blam
Some of the later European maps on show in parliament illustrate dragons, snakes and one-eyed monsters in the inland regions.
One of the earliest known depictions of leftists.

-Eric

32 posted on 11/13/2002 5:37:24 AM PST by E Rocc
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To: Lael
Even the US Air Force is baffled by it.

The United States Chair Force is baffled by many simple things. They are hardly an indicator of intellectual controversy.

Graham Hancock's book, FINGERPRINTS OF THE GODS,

PAGING ART BELL

Your silly tin-foilish claims are debunked here.

33 posted on 11/13/2002 6:17:29 AM PST by andy_card
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To: syriacus
20/20 hindsight--won't work, I'm afraid. Nothing any cuter than a Chinese baby/toddler. We have one in our church who was adopted by members of our congregation and she is THE most delightful child. How can they kill these precious ones? Demonic!
34 posted on 11/13/2002 10:47:05 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Lael
8th Reconnaissance Technical Squadron

Military maps are the basis for the USGS quad maps. Piri Re'is, as Admiral, would have also had the best possible maps. Those maps would have been based on older maps; you realize that such a finished map as the Piri Re'is map would have been drawn and colored by hand at a drafting table by cartographic artists over an extended period of work, and most importantly, from source materials.

35 posted on 11/13/2002 12:19:46 PM PST by RightWhale
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To: All
"...dates back to 1389" -- which means it's not ancient. The "Periplus of Hanno" survived as a Greek translation of an account still visible in a Carthaginian temple inscription in ancient times. That expedition established various colonies (named in the account) and visited identifiable landmarks on the western coast of Africa as far south as Cameroon. Also still visible in the temple were gorilla skins, described in the text. And -- this one kinda blew my mind when I first read it -- the name "gorilla" is a modern transliteration of the Greek version of the Carthaginian word for that creature, which was not rediscovered by European civ until the 19th century.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
The GGG Digest
-- Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

36 posted on 08/04/2004 11:13:11 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: blam
Lake Tritonis, perhaps? It's found in book IV of Herodotus:
"The sea-coast beyond the Lotophagi is occupied by the Machlyans, who use the lotus to some extent, though not so much as the people of whom we last spoke. The Machlyans reach as far as the great river called the Triton, which empties itself into the great lake Tritonis. Here, in this lake, is an island called Phla, which it is said the Lacedaemonians were to have colonised, according to an oracle."
Located in Libya, by Herodotus' time it had begun to dry out, having peaked (and perhaps formed) during the wetter period many thousands of years earlier. Needless to say, the lake has since vanished. It was in what is now the Sahara (not the entire desert, just part of it).

37 posted on 08/04/2004 11:18:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv

Interesting, thanks.


38 posted on 08/05/2004 5:24:45 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
I've often wondered whether that refers to the Qattara Depression, but that may have been dry too long, and probably was known as Lake Typhon. None of these names refers to Fayyum. :')
39 posted on 08/05/2004 10:33:54 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

40 posted on 03/15/2006 9:52:30 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Yes indeed, Civ updated his profile and links pages again, on Monday, March 6, 2006.)
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