BBC: St. Thomas Becket "Worst Briton of 12th Century" (!!)

BBC ^ | 12/27/2005 | n/a

[Pyro7480]

'Worst' historical Britons named
Historians have put together a list of the 10 "worst" Britons of the last 1,000 years. They chose one rogue from each century of the last millennium to compile the list for the BBC History Magazine.

Jack the Ripper, King John and Oswald Mosley - founder of the British Union of Fascists - are among the selection.

Magazine editor Dave Musgrove said the different "definitions of wickedness" of the 10 historians questioned had led to a diverse list....

The "greedy" Thomas Becket, Archbishop of Canterbury, was nominated by Professor John Hudson, of St Andrews University, as the 12th century's worst villain.

"He divided England in a way that even many churchmen who shared some of his views thought unnecessary and self-indulgent," he said.

"He was a founder of gesture politics."

"Those who share my prejudice against Becket may consider his assassination in Canterbury Cathedral on 29 December, 1170, a fittingly grisly end."

[The list is the cover story of BBC History Magazine's January 2006 issue.]

[Dumb_Ox]

I'd never thought I'd see a modern British academic defending the authority of the monarchy, even indirectly.

[Lilllabettt]

Will no one rid me of this meddlesome network?

Lol. If only a hair-shirt were to be found on the BBC's dead body. It might improve their reputation if they could show some sort of post-humous remorse for their errors. Not likely, I'm afraid.

[bornacatholic]

Professor John Hudson, of St Andrews University

*No doubt a Poofter Professor; well, he represents Perfidious Albion and he hates Becket, therefore, he can kiss my arse

BTW, Jesus is divisive

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Lol. If only a hair-shirt were to be found on the BBC's dead body. ***

We already know they have lice as their programing is lousy!

Is it true that some people at Becket's funeral went into fits when they saw the lice abandoning his body?

[Oztrich Boy]

Founder of the principle of separation of Church and State (...... how evil!

The idea that clergymen are immune to civil law - that rates as evil

[siunevada]

Just an amateur opinion, but I don't think the professor can see the sun shine from the current location of his head. Becket and Henry II were reportedly reconciled before his assasination.

I'll nominate this broad:

1114 - Matilda (Maud), daughter of Henry I of England marries Emperor Henry V

1129 - Empress Matilda, widow of Henry V, marries Geoffrey the Handsome, Count of Anjou, nicknamed " Plantagenet "

1139 - Matilda lands in England

1141 - Matilda captures Stephen at the battle of Lincoln, and reigns disastrously as queen; she is driven out by a popular rising and Stephen restored

1148 - Matilda leaves England for the last time

[siunevada]

The idea that clergymen are immune to civil law - that rates as evil

'Civil law' of the time consisted in whatever the king willed and was able to enforce. Must not have been a very popular 'British' concept given that the Magna Carta was signed in 1215.

[Oztrich Boy]

'Civil law' of the time consisted in whatever the king willed and was able to enforce.

And yet The Constitution of the United States of America - Fifth Amendment--Rights of Persons with the imprimatur of The Unites States Senate, gives more credit for Henry II's Assize of Clarendon of 1166 as a basis of US civil law than Becket's benefit of clergy.

[AliVeritas]

Henry wanted to control the church completely... there's a difference.

He assumed Becket would play along... he didn't.

Obviously, you think there should be no separation of church and state... and you must love eminent domain (as evidenced by the raiding and shutting down of the Cathedrals and churches... a lot, and taking the lands?

Go read some more about what happened (history, not BBC)... then get back to me.

[Oztrich Boy]

Obviously, you think there should be no separation of church and state...

One Law for all: lay and clerk: same crime, same penalty.

[TaxachusettsMan]

. . . the shrine shall be pillaged, and the gold spent,
The jewels gone for light ladies' ornament,
The sanctuary broken, and its stores
Swept into the laps of parasites and whores.
When miracles cease, and the faithful desert you.
And men shall only do their best to forget you.
And later is worse, when men will not hate you
Enough to defame or to execrate you,
But pondering the qualities that you lacked
Will only try to find the historical fact.
When men shall declare that there was no mystery
About this man who played a certain part in history.

---

I know
What yet remains to show you of my history
Will seem to most of you at best futility,
Senseless self-slaughter of a lunatic,
Arrogant passion of a fanatic.
I know that history at all times draws
The strangest consequence from remotest cause.
But for every evil, every sacrilege,
Crime, wrong, oppression and the axe's edge,
Indifference, exploitation, you, and you,
And you, must all be punished. So must you.

You think me reckless, desperate and mad.
You argue by results, as this world does,
To settle if an act be good or bad.
You defer to the fact. For every life and every act
COnsequence of good and evil can be shown.
And as in time results of many deeds are blended
So good and evil in the end become confounded.
It is not in time that my death shall be know;
It is out of time that my decision is taken
If you call that decision
To which my whole being gives entire consent.
I give my life
To the Law of God above the Law of Man.

-------

No. For the Church is stronger for this action,
Triumphant in adversity. It is fortified
By persecution: supreme, so long as men will die for it.
Go, weak sad men, lost erring souls, homeless in earth or heaven.
Go where the sunset reddens the last grey rock
Of Brittany, or the Gates of Hercules.
Go venture shipwreck on sullen coasts
Where blackamoors make captive Christian men;
Go to the northern seas confined with ice
Where the dead breath makes numb the hand, makes dull the brain;
Find an oasis in the desert sun,
Go seek alliance with the heathen Saracen,
To share his filthy rites, and try to snatch
Forgetfulness in his libidinous courts,
Oblivion in the fountain by the date-tree;
Or sit and bite your nails in Aquitaine.
In the small circle of pain within the skull
You still shall tramp and tread one endless round
Of thought, to justify your action to yourselves,
Weaving a fiction which unravels as you weave,
Pacing forever in the hell of make believe
Which never is belief: this is your fate on earth
And we must think no further of you.

O my lord,
the glory of whose new state is hidden from us,
Pray for us of your charity.

Now in the sight of God
Conjoined with all the saints and martyrs gone before you,
Remember us.

---

Forgive us, O Lord, we acknowledge ourselves as type of the common man,
Of the men and women who shut the door and sit by the fire;
Who fear the blessing of God, the loneliness of the night of God, the surrender required, the deprivation inflicted;
Who fear the injustice of men less than the justice of God;
Who fear the hand at the window, the fire in the thatch, the fist in the tavern, the push into the canal,
Less than we fear the love of God.
We acknowledge our trespass, our weakness, our fault; we acknowledge
That the sin of world is upon our heads; that the blood of the martyrs and the agony of the saints
Is upon our heads.
Lord, have mercy upon us.
Christ, have mercy upon us.
Lord, have mercy upon us.
Blessed Thomas, pray for us.


T.S. Eliot, Murder in the Cathedral (1935)

[Tax-chick]

Piffle! Lotta worse people kicking around the 12th century.

St. Thomas Becket is my son Thomas's patron, since General Jackson isn't "official."

[siunevada]

And yet The Constitution of the United States of America - Fifth Amendment--Rights of Persons with the imprimatur of The Unites States Senate, gives more credit for Henry II's Assize of Clarendon of 1166 as a basis of US civil law than Becket's benefit of clergy.

Good point. Of course, as your link points out, the grand jury system existed in pre-Norman England.
The history of the grand jury is rooted in the common and civil law, extending back to Athens, pre-Norman England, and the Assize of Clarendon promulgated by Henry II.

One might argue that Becket the archbishop was more representative of pre-Norman English law and life than Henry II.

[Falconspeed]

I emailed Prof. Hudson and he kindly emailed back saying,

"The early sources give no sign of saintliness, although in his secular career certainly many signs of effectiveness ... and his canonisation was duly swift."

I kindly responded (1) that early sources do show signs of Becket's saintliness, such as the monk Gervase, and (2) that his canonization only took three years because there were so many miracles at his grave.

This is higher academia at its best, imho.

[Unam Sanctam]

He is a martyr for freedom of the Church from government control. Obviously, somebody doesn't like that concept at the BBC!

[Ciexyz]

It's been years since I saw the film "Becket" with Richard Burton in the title role and Peter O'Toole as Henry, but it was marvelous theater.

[Ciexyz]

No "King George III" ??? That memory must be too terribly painful.

[TradicalRC]

One Law for all: lay and clerk: same crime, same penalty.

Wonderful theory!

"Laws are like cobwebs, which may catch small flies, but let wasps and hornets break through."

-Jonathan Swift

We all know that the rich and powerful rarely if ever suffer the same penalty as the poor and the weak.

[RobbyS]

How many know that the first article of magna carta guaranteed the liberties of the Church? Beckett was responsible for that.

[dangus]

10:1 that history professor only knew Thomas Becket failed to push for gay rights.