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(Baptist) Minister: Stop Having So Many Children!
creative Minority ^ | 11 Dec 2012 | Melani Manel Perera

Posted on 12/18/2012 8:05:31 AM PST by Cronos

'Might our religion be killing us?' That's what a Baptist minister was asking recently in an editorial in USA Today.

Rev. Oliver "Buzz" Thomas writes:

Be fruitful and multiply," says the book of Genesis, and Lord knows we have. To the tune of more than 300 million at home and more than 6 billion abroad. But as we go about the heavenly task of multiplying, a poignant question arises: Might our religion be killing us?
Insert the deep dark foreboding music.

We all remember the Aztecs. Some say their religion, with its penchant for violence and human sacrifice, played a critical role in the destruction of their civilization. We moderns are far more sophisticated, of course, but if we persist with some of our religious practices, we could be heading down the same disastrous dog trot. Sort of a reverse Noah story. Noah is credited with saving humanity during the big flood. We could be the ones who get blamed for destroying it.
Now " Reverend Buzz" doesn't understand that he just hit on the most truth he's going to find in this piece. By comparing America to the Aztecs who destroyed themselves with violence and human sacrifice he actually hit on the truth of America today. But he's after a different kind of truth, you know the kind that doesn't make any sense to anyone not named "Reverend Buzz."

He's frightened that Christians are having too many children.
Of course, much of our environmental problem is due to overpopulation. There are simply too many people for the planet to sustain — at least the way we expect to be sustained. Each new person requires more food, water and oxygen. At the same time, each is producing more carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide and methane (the big culprits of global warming). For each additional human, planet Earth (and the rest of us) pays a price.
Your baby is just a methane producing machine! Stop them now!

Here's the part where goes anti-Catholic. You knew it was coming, didn't you?

Now, consider the Roman Catholic Church's continued opposition to modern birth control or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' (i.e. Mormons) encouragement of large families. This might not alarm you unless you realize that nearly one in every five humans on the planet is Roman Catholic and that the Latter-day Saints belong to one of the fastest-growing religions in the Western Hemisphere. Many Orthodox Jews and some Muslims also eschew birth control.

In the interest of preserving our planet and our species, shouldn't religious organizations be encouraging smaller families? Do our spiritual leaders need additional divine revelation to realize that our current doctrines — which threaten to take the entire world down with us — have become ethically and theologically questionable?
Additional divine revelation...from someone named Buzz, maybe? So much for sola scriptura.

Population growth hits hardest in the poorest nations, and as poverty increases, public health declines. I am quite certain that God is not the author of human misery, but by preaching against birth control at the same time we are preaching against abortion, it seems that we're making God out as cruel, a buffoon, or both.

I recognize that religious organizations tend to be conservative institutions. Their continued resistance to equal rights for women and gays is a good example. A woman may be president of Harvard or speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives, but in the largest religious organization on the planet, women still can't get ordained as parish priests. It's even worse for gays and lesbians.
Oh come on. You knew it was coming. First it was global warming, then it was poverty. You knew women being ordained was next right? What? It follows.

How should people of faith respond to this gathering environmental storm?

First, we must stop having so many children. Clergy should consider voicing the difficult truth that having more than two children during such a time is selfish. Dare we say sinful? The average American might not listen to his elected representatives, but he darn sure listens to his pastor. Every week. This will be a hard message for pastors to preach and parishioners to hear, but without it we court disaster.

In addition, Americans should be having important policy debates as we anticipate a hotter, more hostile natural environment. Instead of providing tax breaks for having more children, shouldn't Congress be providing incentives for having fewer?
Is he out of his mind. Doesn't he read? The reproduction rates of mainly Christian nations in Europe are currently sub-replacement levels. The United States hovers just at replacement rate with 2.07 births per woman. Ireland is 1.87, New Zealand 1.79, Australia 1.76. But Canada's fertility rate is down to 1.5, well below replacement rate; Germany and Austria are at 1.3, the brink of the death spiral; Russia and Italy are at 1.2; Spain 1.1, about half replacement rate. That's to say, Spain's population is halving every generation.

Now with that information, does Rev. Buzz still want us to have less babies. Muslim countries by the way are having about six babies per couple. Christianity needs a baby boom.

Now you're gonna' love his conclusion.
When Aztec society was threatened by disease and military defeat, their religious leaders appear to have let them down. Most likely, these leaders encouraged even more human sacrifice to appease the gods, thereby further weakening the society and ultimately facilitating its collapse.

Let's hope we can learn from their mistakes.
Well, if he's making a list I can point to at least one religious leader who's letting people down.


TOPICS: Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: protestantbashing

1 posted on 12/18/2012 8:05:35 AM PST by Cronos
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To: Cronos

I dare you to say that to the Moslems.


2 posted on 12/18/2012 8:09:32 AM PST by E. Pluribus Unum ("The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the state." - Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Senator)
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To: Cronos

Another fake minister.


3 posted on 12/18/2012 8:14:51 AM PST by ABQHispConservative (Only fake Christians vote or are Democrats.)
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To: Cronos
Now, consider the Roman Catholic Church's continued opposition to modern birth control ... This might not alarm you unless you realize that nearly one in every five humans on the planet is Roman Catholic

Nassssty little CATHlikkksessss ...

Gollum ... gollum ... gollum ...

4 posted on 12/18/2012 8:15:07 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Cronos
Ugh!

Remember--anyone can call himself a Baptist and start a church. This is a repulsive nut and should not be taken seriously as a leader.

Think Westboro. Normal Baptists can't stop them from calling themselves Baptist, but their filth is not representative of the denomination.

5 posted on 12/18/2012 8:16:00 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Cronos

This Baptist may have abandoned all the traditional orthodox Christian doctrines, but he has preserved the core tradition of the Reformation: blind hatred of the Catholic Church.


6 posted on 12/18/2012 8:16:10 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Cronos

The problem is not people having children: the problem is people having children thay have no intention of supporting, or parenting.


7 posted on 12/18/2012 8:17:21 AM PST by jimt (Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.)
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To: Cronos

Our birth rate is declining.
Plus, the scam that is Social Security is designed to support the old on the shoulders of the young.
This man is a liberal.
Liberalism is secularism.
Secularism hates the God of Israel.


8 posted on 12/18/2012 8:19:53 AM PST by lurk
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To: Cronos
Evidently the good reverend knows what the Bible says, but doesn't want to obey it. Oh, well, another church down the drain?

Here are links about Humanae Vitae and contraception. In the next post I will post the Natural Family Planning links. All links have been posted on FR.

How Protestants Learned to Love the Pill
A "Humane" Abortion
The Campaign for Humanae Vitae
Bachelorettes and Humanae Vitae
Contraceptives and the Environment - What the Pill Is Doing to Our Water Supply
Melinda Gates: I’m Catholic and contraception is not controversial
Catholics Urged to Imitate St. Thomas More in Contraception Battle
Essays for Lent: Contraception

The Differences the Pill has Made
Pastors Preach Against Contraception From Pulpit
Catholics and Contraception: Boston, 1965
Abortion, Contraception and the Church Fathers (Catholic teaching unchanged for 2000 yrs)
Contraception and Catholicism (What the Roman Catholic Church really teaches)
6 Reasons Why Contraception is Sinful and Contrary to God's Will
Time To Admit It: The Church Has Always Been Right On Birth Control
Paul VI: “danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities ...”
The Truth about The Church's Teaching about Contraception.
Letter from Archbishop John G. Vlazny on the matter of freedom of conscience and decisions by HHS

Bishop Olmsted's Letter to Catholics [Catholic Caucus]
Liberty for the Amish & Quakers but not Catholics. . .
Contraception mandate prompts Peoria bishop to instate St. Michael Prayer (Catholic Caucus)
Phoenix bishop (Olmstead): defy feds on birth control
A letter from Archbishop Dennis M. Schnurr concerning HHS edict
Speak honestly: abortion is ‘the killing of tiny human beings in the womb’ – Denver bishop
Bishop [Daniel Jenky] Blasts Secularist Intolerance, Calls For ‘Assertive Action’ to Defend Church
(Pittsburgh Bishop Zubik comments:) HHS delays rule on contraceptive coverage
Dolan: Natural law, not religious preference, dictates all life sacred
Religious leaders blast HHS over contraception mandate

Mandated Contraception, Sterilization: Caesar Demands Church Violate Conscience
OBAMA’S CONTEMPT FOR RELIGIOUS LIBERTY (mandates coverage of sterilization & contraception)
Obama Admin Decides to Require Religious Institutions to Cover Free Contraception
Jews and Evangelicals stand with Church against contraception mandate
Obama Supporters Worried He May Grant Contraception Exemptions to Catholic Hospitals
Catholic college sues HHS over contraception mandate
Children of the Reformation: A Short & Surprising History of Protestantism & Contraception
Implications of Obama Admin move to force Cath hospitals to provide contraception and sterilizations
Catholic doctors’ group launches petition against contraception mandate
Contraception mandate tramples religious freedom, US bishops say

Planned Parenthood Cuts Contraception, Not Abortion After De-Funding
Contraception underlying cause of breakdown of family, sexual morality, says expert
Contraception: The Reason Catholics Have Abandoned Confession
U.S. Bishops’ Publication Urges Priests to Preach on Contraception, Sterilization, IVF
Contraception: The Bitter Pill
Catholic Bishops Warn of ‘Civil Disobedience’ Over Contraceptives [Philippines]
Relationships Market After 50 Years of The Pill
Contraception: The Bacteria Devouring America’s Soul
Christians examine morality of birth control [Ecumenical/Orthodox Presbyterian]
The Cost of Contraception: Women's Health - Response to CNN

The Connection between Contraception and Abortion
Baby Bust: The Demographics of Global Depression
The Surest Sign of a Decadent Culture
Protestants and Birth Control
The Protest of a Protestant Minister Against Birth Control
Contraception: Why Not?
The Bible & Birth Control
Our Gravest Moral Responsibility: Convert the Contraception Mentality
Contraception and Conversion
Evangelical Leaders are Ok with Contraception

The pill and 50 years of misery [the pill kills!]
The dawn of demonic deception [the birth control pill]
Researcher finds strong link between contraception and HIV
The Birth-Control Riddle
Social Science Proves Humanae Vitae
"Contraception Is Wrong. Now Here's How You Use It . . ."
Suit claims birth control warning not enough
Natural and Unnatural (father of 5 shocks mother of 1)
Planned Parenthood Uses Teens to Distribute Injectable Birth Control in Rural Ecuador
Study: Low-Dose Birth Control Pills Decrease Bone Density in Young Women
Spanish drug agency confirms grave effects of morning-after pill

Another Woman Dies of Hormonal Contraceptive in Switzerland
Study Finds Half of Women on "Birth Control Shot" Suffer Bone Problems
The Re-Birth of Population Control: Human Life Seen as a Carbon roblem
Radio Replies First Volume - Birth Control
Abortion, birth control pill linked to breast cancer, surgeon says
God before contraception (Australia)
Fighting the 'contraceptive mentality'
Birth control pill creator regrets population decline
Polluted Water, Polluted Culture (one more consequence from contraception)
Abortifacients -- The Other Forbidden Grief

NFP and Contraception: What’s the Difference?
Wisconsin requiring Catholic institutions to provide contraceptives coverage
Contraception: The history you may have missed and would rather not know
Why does Pope Benedict talk about Humanae vitae in the new encyclical? [Catholic Caucus]
New Evangelical Documentary Exposes Abortifacient Qualities of the Birth Control Pill, Promotes NFP
In Quiverfull Movement, Birth Control Is Shunned
Press in a Dither Again over Pope’s Reaffirmation of Catholic Teaching
How Birth Control Changed America for the Worst
If You Are Contracepting, You Are Part of A Very Big Problem

Vatican and Italian government criticize sale of RU 486 in Italy
New Condom Ads Target Catholics, Latinos
St. Padre Pio, Humanae Vitae, and Mandatory Abortion
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part Two [Open]
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part One [Open]
Humanae Vitae and True Sexual Freedom — Part 6 of 6 [Open]
Contraception v. Natural Family Planning — Part 5 of 6 [Open]
Sex Speaks: True and False Prophets — Part 4 of 6 [Open]
Contraception and the Language of the Body — Part 3 of 6 [Open]
Does Contraception Foster Love? — Part 2 of 6 [Open]

Contraception and Cultural Chaos — Part 1 of 6 [Open]
Priests still suffering from effects of Humanae Vitae dissenters, Vatican cardinal says (Must read!)
"Provoking reflection" (Contrasting views on Humanae Vitae)
Humanae Vitae The Year of the Peirasmòs - 1968
Catholics to Pope: Lift the Birth Control Ban
[OPEN] The Vindication of Humanae Vitae
Catholic Clergy Challenge Colleagues to Reacquaint Themselves and Their People with Humanae Vitae
White House proposes wide "conscience clause" on abortion, contraception
THE EX CATHEDRA STATUS OF THE ENCYCLICAL "HUMANAE VITAE" [Catholic Caucus]
“A degrading poison that withers life”

Australia Study: 70 Percent of Women Seeking Abortions Used Contraception
[Fr. Thomas Euteneuer] In Persona Christi: The Priest and Contraception
A Challenging Truth, Part Two: The Day the Birth Control Died
A Challenging Truth, Part One: How Birth Control Works
Ten Challenges for the Pro-Life Movement in 2008
The concept of the "intrinsically evil"
Pope Tells Pharmacists Not to Dispense Drugs With 'Immoral urposes'
Massive Study Finds the Pill Significantly Increases Cancer Risk if Used more than Eight Years
Birth Control Pill Creates Blood Clot Causing Death of Irish Woman
Seminarians Bring Church’s Teaching on Contraception, Sexuality to YouTube

Abortion and Contraception: Old Lies
History of Catholic teaching on Contraception
Pope: Legislation "Supporting Contraception and Abortion is Threatening the Future of Peoples"
Contraception: Why It's Wrong
On Fox News Fearless HLI Priest Takes on Sean Hannity (may be indebted for saving his soul)
VIDEO - SEAN HANNITY vs REV. THOMAS EUTENEUER (must see!)
The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Pope on divine love vs. erotic love
Conjugal Love and Procreation: God's Design
Being fruitful [Evangelicals and contraception]

9 posted on 12/18/2012 8:20:24 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos
Young Catholic Women Try To Give Church’s Position On Birth Control New Sheen
Essays for Lent: Natural Family Planning
Divorce Rate Comparisons Between Couples Using NFP & Artificial Birth Control

'Amazing Grace for Those Who Suffer'
Natural and Unnatural (father of 5 shocks mother of 1)
NFP — It Ain’t Your Momma’s Rhythm
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part Two [Open]
Responsible Parenthood in a Birth Control Culture, Part One [Open]
Contraception v. Natural Family Planning — Part 5 of 6 [Open]
Journey to the Truth (Natural Family Planning) [Open]
Enslaving Women One Pill at a Time (Birth Control Pills and Natural Family Planning)
New Study Shows Natural Family Planning Technique More “Effective” Than Contraception
Fargo) Diocese set to require pre-marriage course in natural family planning

Making Babies: A Very Different Look at Natural Family Planning
Clerical Contraception (Important Read! By Fr. Thomas J. Euteneuer)
(Fargo) Diocese set to require pre-marriage course in natural family planning
Natural Family Planning Awareness Week, July 25, 2004
IS NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING A 'HERESY'? (Trads, please take note)
Thanks Doc: More (and Younger) Doctors Support Natural Family Planning
Couple say Natural Family Planning strengthens marriage
Reflections: Natural family planning vs sexism
British Medical Journal: Natural Family Planning= Effective Birth Control Supported by Catholic Chrch
Natural Family Planning

10 posted on 12/18/2012 8:22:46 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos

The problem is that Christians and Jews are not having enough children. The problem is that certain countries, prone to violence and under the strong yoke of an oppressive, world-expansionist movement cleverly disguised as a religion, are rapidly making little versions of their angry, violent contentious selves at a rate that guarantees that the world will become angry, violent and contentious within a few decades.


11 posted on 12/18/2012 8:27:56 AM PST by I want the USA back
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To: Cronos

Chesterton on birth control/population control:

In 1925 Chesterton wrote an introduction to Charles Dickens’ A Christmas Carol in which he said that “The answer to anyone who talks about the surplus population is to ask him, whether he is part of the surplus population; or if not, how he knows he is not.”


12 posted on 12/18/2012 8:36:59 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos

The article is thinly-disguised hatred for the Catholic church. This is taught in many “christian” churches.


13 posted on 12/18/2012 8:55:30 AM PST by I want the USA back
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To: Cronos

I am always appalled by Christians who do not believe God made provision for the outcome of our faithfulness.
So, if the Lord said “Blessed is the man whose quiver is full of them”, meaning about 4 to 6 children, then that same God also made provision for the resulting population on earth. That would mean adequate food, water, climate, you name it.
If I could live my life over, I would not practice birth control.


14 posted on 12/18/2012 9:05:28 AM PST by Wiser now (Socialism does not eliminate poverty, it guarantees it.)
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To: Cronos; Salvation
Die Heretic!

Baptist?

All Kinds of Catholics

Even “Catholics for Obama”

Oliver 'Buzz' Thomas is the former BJCPA general counsel who is currently the special counsel for religious and civil liberties for the National Council of Churches. Thomas submitted testimony before Congress in support of ENDA, calling it an act of justice.

NISWONGER FOUNDATION EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR RESIGNS

BUZZ THOMAS is President of the Great Schools Partnership

And a change agent for The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America

15 posted on 12/18/2012 9:11:27 AM PST by haffast (Books serve to show a man that those original thoughts of his aren't very new at all. -Abe Lincoln)
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To: ArrogantBustard

They ain’t stupid...guilt is a powerful motivator.


16 posted on 12/18/2012 9:35:32 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Cronos

You had to search far and wide to find this articule written by a “Baptist”.


17 posted on 12/18/2012 9:41:00 AM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: wideawake

” but he has preserved the core tradition of the Reformation: blind hatred of the Catholic Church.”

Anyone can call themselves a Baptist, just as anyone can call themselves a Catholic. There are “Catholic” nuns pushing for abortion on demand. Yet the Protestants on FR aren’t blaming the Catholic church for that, are we?

The opposition to the RC church was hardly “blind.” You may disagree with all or some of the 95 Theses, but they are articulate and serious points, not blind rage.

As for hatred, it was RCs torturing and killing Protestants during the Inquisition, issuing papal bulls and death sentences and etc. I don’t blame all Catholics for that, not at all, but why accuse the Protestants of hatred? We were the ones being burned at the stake.


18 posted on 12/18/2012 9:44:23 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: I want the USA back
I have been a Baptist for 71 years. We disagree with Catholic theology, but there is NO HATE taught for any soul. STOP spreading these lies.
19 posted on 12/18/2012 9:45:16 AM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Persevero
We were the ones being burned at the stake.

Tell that to Margaret Clitheroe and Edmund Campion.

20 posted on 12/18/2012 9:46:13 AM PST by wideawake
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To: Wiser now

The entire world population can be fed 5 times over if all the land used for alcohol were used for food.


21 posted on 12/18/2012 9:55:56 AM PST by aimhigh ( Guns do not kill people. Planned Parenthood kills people.)
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To: Cronos
We all remember the Aztecs. Some say their religion, with its penchant for violence and human sacrifice, played a critical role in the destruction of their civilization.

I thought it was Spanish soldiers, with their superior weapons and tactics, plus the smallpox virus that destroyed the Aztec civilization.

22 posted on 12/18/2012 10:03:29 AM PST by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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To: stuartcr

Who is “they” to whom you refer?


23 posted on 12/18/2012 10:05:01 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Persevero
Yet the Protestants on FR aren’t blaming the Catholic church for that, are we?

Some of them (FR Protestants) appear to be doing just that. I don't recall ever seeing other FR Protestants rebuking them, either.

24 posted on 12/18/2012 10:08:01 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Mamzelle
Remember--anyone can call himself a Baptist and start a church.

Back in the 1970's, there was a "Baptist" book store in El Monte, Calif., whose owner was a self-styled Nazi. Most of the materials sold in the store were about Nazi ideology and there was virtually no devotional literature or books on Christianity or Baptist theology.

25 posted on 12/18/2012 10:12:00 AM PST by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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To: ArrogantBustard

The Catholic church


26 posted on 12/18/2012 10:15:50 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: stuartcr
Well ... I agree that the Catholic Church (as an institution) is not stupid ... nor are its members on average any more stupid than the human world population at large.

As for the supposed "guilt" thing ...

I observe that in general folks who make a big deal about it, who appear to think that "guilt" is a big part of being Catholic ... are not Catholic. They speak from a position of ignorance.

FWIW.

YMMV.

27 posted on 12/18/2012 10:21:05 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: wideawake

I don’t know who those two are, but if they were burned for being Roman Catholics, I repudiate that.

I repeat, the Reformation was not about Protestants having blind hatred for Roman Catholics. The persecution was waged by the Pope and many Cardinals and Bishops and supporting Kings and Queens, particularly Bloody Mary; not by Protestants. That doesn’t mean no Protestants ever did anything wrong.

But to characterize the Reformation as some sort of persecution of the RC church by Protestants is nonsense.


28 posted on 12/18/2012 10:33:14 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: ABQHispConservative

He’s a minister of the culture of death. There’s plenty of them.

We can only hope the insane minions that constitute his “congregation” take his advice and do not reproduce themselves into the future of God’s creation. They should have a suicide offering to their Mayan god.


29 posted on 12/18/2012 10:35:16 AM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: ArrogantBustard

I really don’t know if guilt is a big thing for Catholics or not, but if the church says not to use contraceptives and married people want to have sex but not anymore children, then they tend to use contraceptives and have guilt. If you want certain behavior, then guilt is a strong motivator to help achieve it, don’t you think?


30 posted on 12/18/2012 10:36:14 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: ArrogantBustard

“Some of them (FR Protestants) appear to be doing just that. I don’t recall ever seeing other FR Protestants rebuking them, either. “

I certainly have.

I don’t blame Baptists for the “Westborough Church.” I don’t blame Reverends for the “Reverend Jesse Jackson.” I don’t blame RCs for the pro abortion nuns or the homosexual communion services. I will say that I’d like to see the RC church use more of its authority structure to reprimand and repudiate those who claim to be RC but teach and behave differently. The Baptists don’t have an authority structure outside of their local church so don’t have the ability.

I’ve defended RCs as being rank and file appalled at the homosexual abuse coverups, and defended the RC church as having done a lot more good for kids with charity like orphanages, education, plain old money, shelter, and medical care than harm through the pedophile coverups - as horrible as they have been. I have noted that public schools have a worse coverup record.

And I am definitely a Protestant. I don’t have Roman Catholics. I see some serious problems with their doctrine and I won’t repaint the bad parts of their history, any more than I’ll ignore the good parts.


31 posted on 12/18/2012 10:39:26 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: stuartcr

I find that “guilt” is more than a bit overstated as a motivator ... particularly when the folks doing the overstating are doing so in the third person.


32 posted on 12/18/2012 10:51:55 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Coldwater Creek
Thank you for your reasonable and friendly attitude toward Catholics. My own observation, from my own experience, is that Baptists and Catholics make excellent alies; and the more we strive to walk in the footsteps of Jesus, the better allies we become.

We had a Religious Freedom Rally here in my town 6 months ago, and it was a huge Baptist-Catholic success. I'd like to do this on a regular basis!

33 posted on 12/18/2012 10:52:02 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: wideawake; Persevero
If I may direct a look of concern to the two of you: stop wrangling, will you? I'm not going to fight the 16th century wars all over again, and neither are you.

We have a burden to be free of; a lesson of love to learn; a Master to serve; a world to win.

34 posted on 12/18/2012 10:55:41 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Persevero
I certainly have.

If by that you mean that you have done some "rebuking" ... thank you.

35 posted on 12/18/2012 10:56:44 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

he said ok


36 posted on 12/18/2012 11:12:12 AM PST by stuartcr ("Everything happens as God wants it to, otherwise, things would be different.")
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“If I may direct a look of concern to the two of you: stop wrangling, will you?”

My dear Mrs. Don-O, I do not mean to wrangle, and always try to keep a civil tongue in my head. I hold no hatred for Roman Catholics, appreciate their real contributions, and particularly have enjoyed working alongside them in pro-life causes.

I feel a sense of responsibility to defend the innocence of the martyrs who came before me, though, I can’t bear to have them accused of persecution, their blood cries out. I don’t blame any current RCs for their death, but I can’t sit quietly and have them labelled as some sort of aggressors.

It’s sort of like listening to someone blame the Jews for the Holocaust. There were some “bad” Jews who did wrong things, like persecuted and turned in their own people, but they were a handful over and against millions, and I can’t be quiet were they to be blamed for their aggression during WW2, either. History must be remembered honestly, even if painful.

I am for example of German extraction, but do not hesitate to call the country of Germany to account for its horrible behavior in the 1930s/40s, while still acknowledging all the positive contributions of Germans and Germany. I also remember there were serious and faithful Germans who, at great risk to themselves, worked against the evil of the day. Not all the Germans were “bad.”

I have no interested in sparring with anybody, I just want to speak up for those who no longer can.


37 posted on 12/18/2012 11:21:58 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: ArrogantBustard

“If by that you mean that you have done some “rebuking” ... thank you. “

I do mean that, and you’re welcome. I don’t think any progress gets made when we are tarring and feathering each other with giant brushes.


38 posted on 12/18/2012 11:23:46 AM PST by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Cronos

One could say that the real problem is that the producers are having too few children, and the moochers too many.

But saying that in public will get you strung up.


39 posted on 12/18/2012 11:24:22 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (You don't notice it's a police state until the police come for you.)
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To: Persevero
Bless you, Persevero. We are right to love our martyrs. I like to look at this icon of St. Peter the Aleut and St. Peter Bobola.

Peter the Aleut was an Orthodox fur-hunter purportedly killed by Catholics somewhere on the Pacfic Coast of North America in ca. 1815; Andrew Bobola a Polish Jesuit missionary reportedly killed by Orthodox Cossacks in Belarus in 1657. They are portrayed together in Heaven, where Love is.

40 posted on 12/18/2012 12:30:32 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Persevero

Correction: that’s “Andrew” Bobola.


41 posted on 12/18/2012 12:32:08 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("In Christ we form one body, and each member belongs to all the others." Romans 12:5)
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To: Persevero

Persevero:

For the record, the Spanish Inquisition had no jurisdiction over Protestants. It dealt with heretical Catholics. Jews and Muslim-Moors, who had conquered southern Spain 600 years earlier were not brought before the Inquisition courts. After the Spaniards won the war of re-conquest, all Muslims were expelled from Spain. Jews were given several months to leave, with their belongings. Some converted to Catholicism and stayed in Spain, the so-called Conversos.

Now, there were wars fought between Catholics and Protestants, yes, but those for the most part occurred on the battlefield between armies. In places where Protestants were a minority, which would be for example Bavaria, there could be issues, and vice versa, in Northern Germany where Lutheranism took hold, or Geneva where Calvin took hold, etc, or in King Henry’s England, etc, if you were on the wrong side of the state religion, then there were persecutions directed at individuals, yes and those went on till the Treaty of Westphalia (spelling) around 1642 which allowed for basic religous liberty for Protestants in majority Catholic lands and Catholics in majority Protestant lands.

But again, the Spainish Inquisitions really had little to do with Protestantism. It had everything to do with the Muslims in Spain and those Jews who allied themselves with the Muslims against Catherine of Aragaon and her Husband, who I forgot, when they forged an alliance to finally drive out the Muslism from Spain and reunite it as a Catholic Country, which of coure today it it a shadow of its old self with secular liberalism dominateing its politics and culture just like much of the rest of Europe [England, Holland, France, etc]


42 posted on 12/18/2012 1:27:02 PM PST by CTrent1564
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Thank you for the thank you!


43 posted on 12/18/2012 2:26:04 PM PST by Coldwater Creek (He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadows of the Almighty Psalm 91:)
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To: Coldwater Creek

not really. it was there on the web


44 posted on 12/18/2012 11:18:30 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Coldwater Creek

I’m sorry, but when a b groupie is just taught distorted, incorrect statements, then it is hate-mongering...


45 posted on 12/18/2012 11:19:34 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Fiji Hill

well, actually the penchant for violence did play a critical role == the Spanish got allies from neighboring tribes who hated the Aztecs chasing them for blood sacrifices over and over


46 posted on 12/18/2012 11:20:28 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Persevero; wideawake

not completely. Let’s leave aside the philosophical piece for a while — many German Princelings saw this as a chance to fight against the German Emperor and set themselves up as independent with complete control over the temporal and spiritual areas of their people


47 posted on 12/18/2012 11:22:12 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Persevero; wideawake
I can attest to Perservero in particular when he says I hold no hatred for Roman Catholic -- he has not done anything but debate at any point and does not go into knee-jerk "dem Caflix" mode as long as I have known him on FR
48 posted on 12/18/2012 11:25:36 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Coldwater Creek; I want the USA back

Also, CC, note that while you yourself may not have the knee-jerk reaction (and that is commendable — thank you), the experience of many over the years is the opposite. Let’s hope there are more like you and we can have dialogue and debate, but not war.


49 posted on 12/18/2012 11:36:22 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
The Spanish got allies from neighboring tribes who hated the Aztecs chasing them for blood sacrifices over and over

Good point. A historian that I read many years ago--I believe it was T. R. Fehrenbach in his book Fire and Blood: A History of Mexico (New York: Macmillan, 1972)-- wrote that had the Spaniards not come, the Aztecs would probably have been overthrown by the Tlascaltecas, Tarascos and other peoples they were repressing and raiding.

50 posted on 12/19/2012 7:51:52 AM PST by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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