Skip to comments.Biden's Catholic faith offers risks, rewards
Posted on 08/24/2008 11:23:08 AM PDT by Darren McCarty
DENVER - When Joe Biden underwent brain surgery for a life-threatening aneurysm in 1988, he asked doctors whether he could tuck his rosary beads under his pillow. The six-term Democratic senator from Delaware also has offered to shove his rosary down the throat of the next Republican who tells him he isn't religious.
Biden's selection as Obama's running mate immediately touched off new scrutiny of his support for abortion rights, a position in conflict with a fundamental teaching of his church.
One outspoken prelate, Denver Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput, said in statement to The Associated Press that Biden should refrain from taking Communion because of his stance.
........ By selecting a Pennsylvania-born Catholic as his No. 2, Obama is betting the potential rewards including swaying elusive lunch-pail Catholics in the Midwest outweigh the risks.
Other Catholics were even more forceful in their criticism. The Catholic advocacy group Fidelis called the choice of Biden a "slap in the face" to Catholic voters and predicted the Communion question will hover over Biden at each campaign stop.
...Biden is well suited to fight back, said Mara Vanderslice, Kerry's former director of religious outreach. Biden made that clear in 2005 when, quoted in the Cincinnati Enquirer, he said: "The next Republican that tells me I'm not religious, I'm going to shove my rosary beads down their throat."
"He's this scrappy Irish Catholic and he has a long and powerful record of speaking his mind," said Vanderslice, who now heads a political action committee that has aired pro-Obama ads on Christian radio. "I don't think he's going to take any attacks sitting down."
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
From a working class Irish Catholic to an east coast Irish (Biden doesn't sound like an Irish name either - It may be, but it's no McCarty) "Catholic" - You can't be a real Catholic and pro-abortion. Try and shove those beads down my throat, boy, and I'll shut your big mouth for six weeks.
As far as Doug Kmiec goes, what the HELL happened to him?
The priest is absolutely right. But the bishops don't support it because they want to be politically correct. And they're terrified of the money drying up.
No Church discipline there.
Madonna has rosary beads too.
Lots of so called “catholics” have them as little trinkets - or they have sentimental value.
Catholics who actually pay attention to the message of the rosary - and to the teachings of the church - are strongly pro-life.
That is why rosaries are a common sight at pro-life marchers and hateful pro-deathers will yell “get your rosaries off my ovaries!”
pro-deathers are repelled by the sight of rosaries like a crucifix to a vampire.
The question is not whether Senator Joe Biden is religious. Clearly he is religious. The question is what religion does he practice? If he willingly and knowingly supports the murder of unborn children, then he is not a practicing Catholic, because murder is a mortal sin. If he is using some kind of warped and twisted logic to weasel his way out of his responsibility to obey the Commandments of God, then he is a heretic. Are the clergy in the hierarchy worried about losing income? If yes, they need to take a time out to think about what they are doing to themselves and their flock, IMHO.
Hey Joe, you’re not religious and further more, you’re not Catholic either. Contact me and I’ll give you my address so you can try and shove your rosary down my throat.
A catholic? How could he be a catholic and support abortion?
Actually, I don’t think he is religious -— and, yes, I’m willing to say that to his face.
Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isn’t there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself?
Well, actually, if they are seriously complicit with abortion, as Biden certainly is, then they are automatically excommunicated. There just isn’t a public announcement of the fact. And if they then go to communion in a state of mortal sin, they are “eating and drinking damnation to themselves,” as the Anglican Book of Common Prayer used to warn.
Rosary beads or not, his soul is in serious danger if he doesn’t repent and confess and amend his life.
As good bishops like Chaput point out, you aren’t doing these guys a favor if you don’t make it very clear to them that they are putting themselves in danger of damnation. I think most of them know it, in fact, but maybe figure they’ll be given time to repent after they retire from office. Good luck with that.
Yes. See #13.
Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:
Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.
Okay, Catholics, help out a Protestant on this issue. Isnt there something in Catholic doctrine that says that if you support abortion, you have excommunicated yourself?
Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral, commits the sin of heresy and incurs an automatic sentence of excommunication.
Canon Law and Church Teaching
Canon 1398: A person who procures a completed abortion incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
Canon 751: Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
Canon 1364 §1: an apostate from the faith, a heretic, or a schismatic incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
The phrase latae sententiae means a judgment or sentence which has already been brought, in other words, a sentence or judgment which does not need a future additional judgment from someone in authority; it refers to a type of excommunication which is automatic. Such a sentence of excommunication is incurred by the very commission of the offense, (CCC 2272) and does not require the future particular judgment of a case by competent authority.
Apostasy, heresy, and schism are all offences which incur a sentence of excommunication automatically. Heresy is the obstinate denial of any truth of the Catholic faith, on a matter of faith or morals, which has been definitively taught by the Magisterium. The Magisterium has repeatedly and definitively taught that abortion is always gravely immoral. (CCC 2270 to 2275)
Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, n. 57: Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his Successors, and in communion with the Bishops of the Catholic Church, I confirm that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being is always gravely immoral. This doctrine, based upon that unwritten law which man, in the light of reason, finds in his own heart (cf. Rom 2:14-15), is reaffirmed by Sacred Scripture, transmitted by the Tradition of the Church and taught by the ordinary and universal Magisterium.
Obtaining an Abortion
Any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly obtains a procured abortion commits a mortal sin and is also automatically excommunicated, under canon 1398.
Under the laws of secular society, if one person commits a crime, then anyone who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for that person to commit that crime is called an accessory to that crime and is also subject to the penalties of law. Similarly, any Catholic who deliberately and knowingly provides essential or substantial means for any woman to procure an abortion also commits a mortal sin and also incurs the same sentence of excommunication.
Any Catholic who substantially assists another in the deliberate sin of abortion is also guilty of serious sin and also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
Believing in Abortion
Any Catholic who obstinately denies that abortion is always gravely immoral commits the sin of heresy. The sin of heresy also incurs a latae sententiae excommunication.
Unfortunately, some Catholics obstinately deny that abortion is always immoral, and some Catholics claim that abortion can, at times, be a morally-acceptable choice, and some Catholics claim that a person can, in good conscience, choose abortion. Under the Code of Canon Law of the Roman Catholic Church, canons 751 and 1364, all such Catholics are automatically excommunicated for the sin of heresy.
This sentence of latae sententiae excommunication applies to any Catholic who denies that abortion is gravely immoral, regardless of whether they keep this denial hidden or publicly reveal it.
Those Catholics who publicly announce their denial that abortion is always gravely immoral, or who publicly promote abortion, or who publicly argue in favor of legalized abortion, also commit a mortal sin and also incur a sentence of automatic excommunication.
This sentence of excommunication applies to Catholics who are politicians, as well as to those Catholics who are political commentators, or public speakers, or who write or otherwise publicly communicate their erroneous view that abortion can be morally-acceptable or that abortion should be legal. This sentence of excommunication also certainly applies to those Catholics who claim to be theologians or Biblical scholars, but who believe or teach that abortion is not always gravely immoral.
Those Catholics who promote abortion are automatically excommunicated for two reasons. First, they have fallen into the sin of heresy by believing that abortion is not always gravely immoral (canons 751 and 1364). Second, these Catholics are providing substantial assistance for women to obtain abortions by influencing public policy to make abortions legal, and to keep abortions legal, and to broaden access to abortion. Those who provide such substantial assistance commit a mortal sin and incur a sentence of automatic excommunication (canon 1398).
Voting for Abortion
Any Catholic politician who casts a vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion, commits a mortal sin.
When such a vote indicates that the Catholic politician believes that abortion is not always gravely immoral, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canons 751 and 1364, because of heresy.
When such a vote is intended to have the effect of making abortion legal, or more easily obtainable, or more widely available, such a politician incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication, under canon 1398, as someone who is attempting to provide substantial or essential means for women to obtain abortions. Catholic politicians who pass laws which legalize, protect, or widen access to abortion, are providing essential assistance to women who want to obtain abortions.
It is not sufficient for Catholic politicians to claim that they are personally opposed to abortion. If any Catholic politician favors legalized abortion, despite a claim of personal opposition, such a politician commits a mortal sin by promoting abortion and by voting in favor of abortion.
The same is true for any Catholic who casts any vote with the intention of legalizing abortion, or of protecting laws allowing abortion, or of widening access to abortion. Such a voter commits a mortal sin and incurs a sentence of automatic excommunication for two reasons. First, they are committing the sin of heresy by believing that abortion should be legal and available. Second, they are committing the grievous sin of providing women with substantial or essential assistance in obtaining abortions, by attempting to legalize or broaden access to abortion.
However, if, for a period of time, Catholic politicians and voters are unable to enact a law prohibiting all abortion, then Catholic politicians and voters may in good conscience vote for whichever law offers the greatest restrictions and limits on abortion. Subsequently, Catholic politicians and voters are required by the moral law to continue to enact further restrictions and limits on abortion, to the greatest extent possible, and, at every possible opportunity, to vote for laws which completely outlaw abortion.
Voting for Politicians
In general, the moral law requires Catholic voters to vote for those candidates who oppose abortion over those who favor abortion. However, there are exceptions to this general principle. For example, if a political candidate favors abortion, but is a member of a party which generally opposes abortion, a Catholic voter may, in good conscience, vote for that candidate, with the intention of giving more political power to the party which opposes abortion.
In another case, a Catholic voter might, in good conscience, vote for a pro-abortion candidate, if the political office would offer no opportunity for the elected candidate to vote for or against abortion. Even so, every Catholic voter should consider that anyone who supports abortion, as if it were a womans right, or as if it could ever be a moral choice, must necessarily be someone who has a seriously limited understanding of morality and justice. Such a person would not often be the better candidate for any office in place of one who understands that abortion is gravely immoral.
In every case, a Catholic should vote in such a way as to obtain as many restrictions on abortion as possible, and so as to obtain the end to legalized abortion as soon as possible.
Within any constitutional form of government, it would be ideal to have a constitutional clause or amendment which permanently and completely outlaws all procured abortions. Such an amendment must ban all abortions, regardless of circumstance, so that the direct and voluntary killing of an innocent prenatal human being will be always contrary to human law, just as it is always contrary to the moral law.
A constitutional amendment can permit certain medical procedures, which are absolutely necessary to save the life of the mother, and which indirectly result in the unintended and unsought death of the prenatal, only if there is no possible way to save the life of the prenatal. A prenatal is defined as any human being from conception to birth. Every reasonable effort should be made to save the lives of both mother and prenatal. If the life of the prenatal can be saved by no other possible option than by risking or allowing the death of the mother, then the prenatal must be saved.
Catholic teaching clearly allows for certain medical procedures, which indirectly and involuntarily result in the death of the prenatal, to save the life of the mother, but only when all options to save the life of the prenatal have been exhausted. Such a procedure is not an abortion and is not an exception wherein abortion is allowed.
On the other hand, a constitutional amendment which bans abortion with exceptions for various cases, such as rape, incest, or a risk to the mothers life, would be worse than having no such amendment at all.
Any woman who is willing to commit the sin of abortion, would also be willing to lie. If a constitutional amendment permitted abortion in cases of rape, then any woman willing to lie and to falsely claim that she was raped, would be able to also claim that she had a constitutional right to an abortion. The result would be that a constitutional amendment, which seems to ban abortion with some exceptions, would end up giving every woman who is willing to tell a lie, a purported constitutional right to abortion. This situation would be worse than having no such constitutional amendment at all.
Therefore, the only acceptable pro-life constitutional amendment would be one that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, bans all procured abortions without exception.
Here is an example of a just constitutional amendment protecting human life.
--- by Ronald L. Conte Jr.
He sold out. I'm just curious as to the price.
If you had a job where you had to openly support murder and sinful behavior would you stay in that job? Biden does.
If he believes that abortion is murder, as does the Church, and he continues to protect it as a "right", that doesn't say much for his moral compass.
Yes. It's murder of a child. That's the view the Church has of abortion. It's against the 10 Commandments.
And politicians who endorse abortion were called out on it due to their failure to protect the unborn.
There's several documents from the Church on this. From 1974
2318 "In [God's] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind" (⇒ Job 12:10).
2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.
2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.
2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good.
2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 # 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. the Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.
2323 Because it should be treated as a person from conception, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed like every other human being.
2324 Intentional euthanasia, whatever its forms or motives, is murder. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, his Creator.
2325 Suicide is seriously contrary to justice, hope, and charity. It is forbidden by the fifth commandment.
2326 Scandal is a grave offense when by deed or omission it deliberately leads others to sin.
2327 Because of the evils and injustices that all war brings with it, we must do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. the Church prays: "From famine, pestilence, and war, O Lord, deliver us."
2328 The Church and human reason assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflicts. Practices deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes.
2329 "The arms race is one of the greatest curses on the human race and the harm it inflicts on the poor is more than can be endured" (GS 81 # 3).
2330 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God" (⇒ Mt 5:9).
Since one of the marks of a true church is the right administration of church discipline, it’s pretty obvious that the Roman Catholic church doesn’t qualify as a ‘true church’.
Biden is like many 'Cultural Catholics'. They like the trappings of Catholicism, but don't pay too much attention to the TEACHINGS of Catholicism, particularly on the sexual issues. They like to ignore the sexual morality issues in favor of the 'Social Justice' issues, because those issues are very public, and they can be seen to be doing or supporting good works.
Catholics will not vote for Biden because he is ‘Catholic’ for the same reason African Americans wouldn’t support McCain if he put on blackface.
It's possible that he's in the anti Iraq War crowd, so that's why he doesn't like the Republicans, but favors the Democrats who say the war is wrong, and that they want the troops out.
How about Catholics who vote for a pro-choice candidate? Should they be excommunicated? I am curious because I have a close relative who is “very” Catholic, yet is voting for Obama.
Ooops, please disregard my last post....I see my answer. FR is terrific!
“Hey Joe, youre not religious and further more, youre not Catholic either. Contact me and Ill give you my address so you can try and shove your rosary down my throat.”
Yep, what anoldafvet said.
I can not answer for those who consider themselves as true Catholics but for me as a Baptist I can not and will not support Abortion in any form.
I also consider that anyone who supports Abortion as not being true followers of Christ.
Further, when on staff of a foreign country Doc was told she had to perform Abortions and she said no.
The Hospital Administrator told her she would suffer the consequences of her actions and she told him “I will not perform Abortions even if it means I have to find another line of work or profession”.
I witnessed my first and last abortion in 1998 and brother no one will ever convince me that Jesus Christ would approve of the gut wrenching horrific procedure or those who support the murder of the unborn.
“Catholics have been a swing vote for almost 40 years. Polls show white Catholics, who account for nearly one in five U.S. voters, evenly divided between Obama and Republican John McCain. McCain is leading among Catholics in battleground states Ohio and Florida.”
As the co chair of Catholics Against Kerry I will tell you without hesitation that barack mcgovern and abortion joe will NOT break 41% with genuine Catholics. Everytime biden-biden’s Catholic faith comes up it will bring a new opportunity to talk about B-mac’s Born Alive Baby Protection Act problem and THAT is be a huge turn off not only for Cathoics but all right thinking morale Americans.
Abortion and Euthanasia
|Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DE)||Catholic politician who votes for abortion in contradiction to Church teachings. One of American Life League's "Deadly Dozen."|
|1:||CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2271 (618 bytes ) preview document matches
1 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion,
|2:||CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2272 (580 bytes ) preview document matches
2 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A
|3:||CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2322 (290 bytes ) preview document matches
2 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3),
|4:||CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 2274 (554 bytes ) preview document matches
gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent
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Thanks for the replies. That means the Dems have a murtad fitri Muslim and a Catholic who has been excommunicated latae sententiae. Isn’t it amazing what you can learn here!
The four marks of the Catholic Church are
I have no idea where you are getting discipline??? BTW, Bishops ARE denying the Eucharist to pro-aborts.
Yes. And it doesn't only pertain to abortion.
Tere seems to be some misconception that to be excommunicated, in effect, you have to get a formal letter from the Pope.
How many pro-abortion politicians were turned away when the Bishop of Rome led a Mass in Washington DC?
How many times has Biden been turned away at the altar? Kerry? Pelosi?
Why hasn’t he been excommunicated for his support of abortion...and Teddy Kennedy too?
As a Catholic I can't for the life of me understand anyone who would support a pro-choice candidate.
I would assume they are still not very aware of the teachings of the church, or are unwilling to learn as much as they can. That being said excommunicating those who support pro-choice candidates would be a very difficult task. The priest and the officials would have to know the heart of each individual that voted for these pro-choice candidates.
The difference is huge when a pro-choice candidate publicly supports abortion rights and then expects to receive communion at Mass. It creates scandal in the church for the faithful who are following the doctrine of the church. It's a little more messy when you try to pinpoint voters who are more private in their voting actions.
Hope this helps.
I was stunned to see the number of Obama buttons visable at Mass this weekend. (Also the number of bumper stickers in the lot were amazing to me)
Somehow, for some reason, I picture you shoving a hockey puck into Biden's big mouth. Must be the screen name ;)
If Kerry pulled only 10% of the Catholic vote, while in the top SPOT; how is Biden’s faith an asset to Obama?