New Ice-Core Evidence Challenges the 1620s age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption

Journal of Archaeological Science, Volume 25, Issue 3, March 1998, Pages 279-289 ^ | 13 July 1997 | Gregory A. Zielinski, Mark S. Germani

[SunkenCiv]

Determining a reliable calendrical age of the Santorini (Minoan) eruption is necessary to place the impact of the eruption into its proper context within Bronze Age society in the Aegean region. The high-resolution record of the deposition of volcanically produced acids on polar ice sheets, as available in the SO42-time series from ice cores (a direct signal), and the high-resolution record of the climatic impact of past volcanism inferred in tree rings (a secondary signal) have been widely used to assign a 1628/1627 age to the eruption. The layer of ice in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core corresponding to 1623±36 , which is probably correlative to the 1628/1627 event, not only contains a large volcanic-SO42-spike, but it contains volcanic glass. Composition of this glass does not match the composition of glass from the Santorini eruption, thus severely challenging the 1620s age for the eruption. Similarly, the GISP2 glass does not match the composition of glass from other eruptions (Aniakchak, Mt. St. Helens, Vesuvius) thought to have occurred in the 17th century nor does it match potential Icelandic sources. These findings suggest that an eruption not documented in the geological record is responsible for the many climate-proxy signals in the late 1620s . Although these findings do not unequivocally discount the 1620s age, we recommend that 1628/1627 no longer be held as the "definitive" age for the Santorini eruption.

[SunkenCiv]

That's the abstract, which is viewable online with little effort, the full paper requires subscription. The paper itself shouldn't be too surprising in content, since the claim that the purported eruption on Thera is recorded in the ice cores was never based on anything but pure supposition and blind belief.

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[SunkenCiv]

Here's a link to the other message I'd posted on this:

50 Ancient Tombs Uncovered (1400BC, Crete)

[blam]

"Although these findings do not unequivocally discount the 1620s age, we recommend that 1628/1627 no longer be held as the "definitive" age for the Santorini eruption."

Good info...I notice they didn't assign a new date to the Santorini eruption.

I wonder what caused the 1628 ice core spike?

[BenLurkin]

Interesting.

[Adder]

I, too, wonder. Could be from an eruption anywhere in the world. Hawaii area comes to mind at once.

[SunkenCiv]

I wonder what caused the 1628 ice core spike?

And all the others...

The truth of the matter is quite simple. There was once only one sulphur spike great enough to match Thera because budgetary restraints on the ice core work meant that such peaks had not been systematically looked for. Second millennium ice cores have now been searched more thoroughly, and there are peaks of sulphuric acid easily enough to match Thera (which vulcanologists say was not the kind of eruption to shoot out that much sulphur anyway), at NUMEROUS dates within the 18th, 17th, 16th, 15th, 14th centuries BC (see Zielinski et al in Science 264, 1994, pp. 948-952). The REAL FACTS show not only how pathetic is the case for the 17th-century proxy dating...

[T]here is now concrete evidence that the 17th-century ice core event COULD NOT have had anything to do with Thera. See Zielinski and Germani: "New Ice-Core Evidence Challenges the 1620s BC Age for the Santorini (Minoan) Eruption", Journal of Archaeological Science 25 (1998), pp. 279-289. In short, glassy volcanic material has now been analysed from the 1620s ice core layers. It was immediately compared with material from Thera and, in the words of the investigators, it "is very much different". Their conclusion:

"Although we cannot completely rule out the possibility that two nearly coincident eruptions, including the Santorini eruption, are responsible for the 1623 BC signal in the GISP ice core, these results very much suggest that the Santorini eruption is not responsible for this signal. We believe that another eruption led not only to the 1623 BC ice core signal but also, by correlation, to the tree-ring signals at 1628/1627 BC."

So there you have it. An opinion straight from the mouth of ice-core scientists which happens to agree, strangely enough with what vulcanologists have been saying and also cautious well-informed archaeologists like Professor Peter Warren of Bristol University who is AWARE of the problems inherent in "scientific" dating methods and has for years been lecturing and publishing caution about proxy dating.

[from "Re: When did Thera Erupt?", Peter James, reply to a discussion thread on an unknown e-list. Obtained via email from Ev Cochrane]

On a Yahoo group ("New Chronology") devoted to David Rohl, one member (Robert Porter) pointed out that the ice core tephra from Greenland matches a volcano in Alaska, Aniakchak [G3: Geochemistry, Geophysics, Geosystems: An Electronic Journal of the Earth Sciences; "Identification of Aniakchak (Alaska) tephra in Greenland ice core challenges the 1645 BC date for Minoan eruption of Santorini", Pearce et al. abstract].

Here's a sidebar, regarding radiocarbon dating, from the other pole:

A researcher in Antarctica uncovered a dead seal and wanted to get it carbon dated. It appeared fresh and he wondered how old it was. It dated to 1200 AD (plus or minus whatever). As he had subsequent dead seal finds carbon dated, all of them came out to 1200 AD. At first he thought he had some kind of sudden, unexplained seal die-off from approximately that year. Then he had another seal that he'd killed himself carbon dated in an effort to calibrate the dating... I saw this info in a 1985 interview with Barry Fell, in Horus vol II no 1, a journal published by David Griffard. Alas, DG went down in a private plane after the seventh issue.:

"We learned that seals were coming to a bad end and being mummified by nature in Antarctica in 1200 A.D. That was interesting and we wondered what was happening in Antarctica at that time...one of the technicians... noticed that a seal carcass that he himself had shot for dog-meat and that got left out through the winter... [looked] just like the mummified seals that they had been sending in. So without telling too many people what he was doing, he sent this mummified seal to be carbon-dated and do you know it was dated to 1200 A.D., and he had shot it the year before. When that was made public it really caused a storm."

Similarly...

Ancient Modern Life And Carbon Dating
by William R. Corliss

Primordial carbon may come from limestone or natural gas welling up from the earth's interior. Modern life forms that metabolize primordial rather than atmospheric carbon dioxide, with its cosmic-ray produced carbon-14, will appear extremely old when carbon-dated. Mice eating such apparently ancient life forms at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, California, were carbon-dated as being 13,000 years old, and were expected to attain a ripe old age of 35,000 in a few months.

and now, from proxy dating I turn to proxy quoting (':

"From Thera itself came carbonized tree trunk, still rooted in Minoan soil at the bottom of the Fira quarry." "The carbon-14 verdict from the Fira quarry trees was that life on the island had ended in the seventeenth century B.C. - about 1640>, give or take thirty years in either direction." [Charles Pellegrino, Unearthing Atlantis (1991) p. 233]

this, regarding a big mutha of an eruption -- in prehistoric times.

Marine tephra from the Cape Riva eruption (22 ka) of Santorini in the Sea of Marmara
S. Wulf, M. Kraml, T. Kuhn,
M. Schwarz, M. Inthorn, J. Keller,
I. Kuscu, and P. Halbach

[Abstract] A discrete tephra layer has been discovered in three marine sediment cores from the Sea of Marmara, eastern Mediterranean. The rhyodacitic glass chemistry and the stratigraphical position suggest a Santorini provenance and, in particular, a correlation with the marine Y-2 tephra that is known from the southern Aegean Sea and eastern Levantine Basin. This tephra represents the distal facies of the Cape Riva eruption of Santorini, which has been dated by 14C on land at 21950 cal. yr BP. Hitherto, the Y-2 tephra has been detected only in marine sediment cores recovered south to southeast of its volcanic source. The new occurrence in the Sea of Marmara approximately 530 km NNE of the Santorini eruptive centre suggests a more north-easterly dispersal of fallout products of the Cape Riva eruption than previously supposed.

Santorini, Greece

Santorini is complex of overlapping shield volcanoes. Basalt and andesite lava flows that make the shield are exposed in the cliff below the town of Phira. Some of the cliff is thought to be a caldera wall associated with an eruption 21,000 year ago. Druitt and Francaviglia (1992) found evidence of at least 12 large explosive eruptions in the last 200,000 years at Santorin i...

Akroteri, a Minoan city on the south part of Thera, is being excavated. About 3-6 feet (1-2 m) of ash fell on the city which had a population of about 30,000. The residents appear to have been successfully evacuated prior to the eruption. No bodies have been found in the ash like those at Vesuvius. Archeologists also reported that movable objects had been taken from the city...

The Kameni Islands formed after the caldera. Eleven eruptions since 197 B.C. have made the two islands. The most recent eruption at Santorini was in 1950 on Nea Kameni, the northern island. The eruption was phreatic and lasted less than a month. It constructed a dome and produced lava flows.

It should be noted that the "eruption destroyed the Minoans" school has persistently exaggerated the amount of crud covering Akrotiri, claiming as much as 100 feet of ash. Not that they were lyin' er anything... Here's an example:

Akrotiri And The Santorini Volcano
1999 (from the Web Archive)

The final deposition of tephra (volcanic ash) attributable to this eruptional sequence is over five meters thick at Akrotiri but up to fifty meters thick elsewhere on Thera and includes large boulders of basalt in addition to the lighter and smaller bits of pumice which themselves now measure as much as fifteen centimeters across. There is no archaeological evidence for how long the full series of eruptions lasted, but vulcanologists have reached a consensus that the process was a fairly rapid, hence short-lived one. The absence of any clear signs of erosion at the preserved tops of the ruins of Akrotiri supports the notion that complete burial of these ruins followed close upon the heels of the events which produced the ruins in the first place, that is, the initial stages of the eruption.

The town was abandoned (little if anything was left behind) probably due to earthquakes, and buried under 16 feet or less of ash. That author's "five meters" is a bit of hyperbole I believe -- I've seen figures of three meters for the average depth of coverage. And Akrotiri was right on the crater.

There are deeper ash layers elsewhere on the island, but not necessarily associated with the same eruption that buried the town.

Hope this helps.

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[SunkenCiv]

:')

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[SunkenCiv]

Found a bit more. :')

Bronze Age Myths?
Volcanic Activity and Human Response
in the Mediterranean and North Atlantic Region
Paul C. Buckland
Andrew J. Dugmore
Kevin J. Edwards
Antiquity Vol. 71 (1997), pp. 581-593.

A first rule of statistics is that the existence of a correlation does not itself prove a causal connection... This paper examines some of the available evidence for these two Bronze Age 'catastrophes', the one real and in need of a calendar date, the other hypothesized on archaeological grounds and dated by a tenuous link through tree rings to an Icelandic volcano... Despite several cautionary comments from both archaeologists (Manning 1988; Warren 1988) and geologists (Pyle 1989; 1990), the 1628 BC date, or one close to it, continues to be accepted (e.g. Michael and Betancourt 1988), without questioning why the effects of the Santorini eruption should be especially recognizable in the ice-core and tree-ring sequences. Large-scale explosive volcanic activity is common on a global scale (Zielinski et al. 1996), and so before accepting the possibility that the Santorini eruption can be recognized by unusual perturbations in the regional records of ice-cores or tree-rings, the case for its distinctive character must be proved.

The Thera (Santorini) Volcanic Eruption and
the Absolute Chronology of the Aegean Bronze Age
by Sturt W. Manning

...It is argued that the key Late Minoan IA period, the high point of the Minoan civilisation, was not, as conventionally held, contemporary (even in part) with the New Kingdom (18th Dynasty) of Egypt, nor the Late Bronze 1 phase of the Levant. Instead, the Late Minoan IA period in the Aegean is linked with the late Middle Bronze Age of Syria-Palestine, the Second Intermediate (Hyksos) Period of Egypt, and the Late Cypriot IA period of Cyprus. This is an important realignment of cultural synchronisations. The high point of Crete should be considered in terms of the dominant Canaanite trading system of the late Middle Bronze Age, and not New Kingdom Egypt...

Appendix 2: Why the standard chronologies are approximately correct, and why radical re-datings are therefore incorrect.

Interestingly enough, Manning cites Lesson 17: Akrotiri on Thera which, while it toes the line regarding the current dating fictions, also notes that:

"More recently, the vulcanologists have claimed that the Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete."

Gotta go for now.

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[BenLurkin]

Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete."


Really? That is going to send us all back to the drawing board.

[blam]

"Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete." "

I just saw (two weeks ago) a new one hour long documentary on the Thera eruption and their data on the tsunamis that swept 'over' Crete and ended the Minoian(sp) civilization. They dated the tsunamis and the Thera eruption at 1645.

I think the 'jury' is still out.

[SunkenCiv]

Nah. ;')

I'm a staunch catastrophist, have been for as long as I've been aware of any difference, but have never bought the idea of the huge Thera eruption ending the Minoans. As an idea it has been around in some form since the 1930s I believe, and Carl Blegen (excavated Troy and Pylos I think) et al found evidence of widespread natural disaster that was basically simultaneous (regardless of the chronology used, if ya get my drift) in the eastern Mediterranean.

Even in the Iliad ongoing natural disaster can be seen here and there (rivers overflowing their banks, earthquakes, tsunamis), coinciding with the Trojan War. And Thucydides refers to many an earthquake, tsunami, whatnot during the Peloponesian War (sp?).

...more when I get home...

[bookmark for myself http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1181406/posts]

[SunkenCiv]

R. Shand is generally reliable on quotes (as far as their being verbatim) but generally unreliable on interpretation (which occasionally are themselves quotes; one I noticed had to do with taphonomy). He reports (iow, doesn't originate) one hypothesis about the origin of the Atlantis story, claiming that this passage indicates an island with a similar name was destroyed along with its garrison "in a single day and single night" as Plato has Atlantis being destroyed:

The History of the Peloponnesian War
by Thucydides
tr. Richard Crawley
The Internet Classics Archive
Daniel C. Stevenson

"A similar inundation also occurred at Atalanta, the island off the Opuntian Locrian coast, carrying away part of the Athenian fort and wrecking one of two ships which were drawn up on the beach. At Peparethus also the sea retreated a little, without however any inundation following; and an earthquake threw down part of the wall, the town hall, and a few other buildings. The cause, in my opinion, of this phenomenon must be sought in the earthquake. At the point where its shock has been the most violent, the sea is driven back and, suddenly recoiling with redoubled force, causes the inundation. Without an earthquake I do not see how such an accident could happen."

Thucydides and Plato (sole ancient source of the Atlantis story) were nearly contemporary (Thucydides was somewhat older). Atalanta was a small, uninhabited island during Thucydides' time, was seized and fortified by the Athenians during the war, and suffered from a small tidal wave caused by an offshore earthquake. Even in the original it is clear that the association between the two phenomena is understood. At no time did this small island have a huge empire or even a large city, at least according to the ancient author cited. ;')

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[SunkenCiv]

Zangger discusses the long history (circa 1885, much earlier than I'd thought) of the "Thera was Atlantis" idea, and beginning on page 44 cuts it to ribbons. It should be noted that Zangger has his own book about what was and wasn't Atlantis. ;') Check out pp 48-49 for a summary of the problems with the idea, and an amusing catalog of other things attributed to the eruption.

I bought this book in May, and having started it up tonight with some cherry picking, it looks like something I'm going to read in entire.

The Future of the Past Archaeology in the 21st Century by Eberhard Zangger

[ValerieUSA]

I'm a staunch catastrophist

That's what we love about you Civ.

[SunkenCiv]

;') And yet, I subscribe to the view that the Moon was captured (which would have catastrophic effects, however) rather than born of an impact, but you've heard me hold court on that one before. :'D

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[Light Speed]

Bump for Velikovsky outlasting ..Carl [Parrot one liner quote] Sagan,...or

Catastrophism makes simple sense of things : )

Was reflecting on something..after googling up on the moon/Arcadia.

So ya...Velikovsky lists out the Ancient notaries who ref varied peoples who existed..and where *Ancient...before there was a moon.

We have some ref material to work with concerning the Sumerians.....Sitchen is a resource too..but the concern of his potential spin on words..and his theology construct.

note:

In his Sumerian Etymological Dictionary and Comparative Grammar, Kálmán Gosztony, professor of Sumerian philology at the Sorbonne, demonstrated that the grammatical structure of the Hungarian language is the closest to that of the Sumerian language: out of the 53 characteristics of Sumerian grammar, there are 51 matching characteristics in the Hungarian language, 29 in the Turkic languages, 24 in the Caucasian languages, 21 in the Uralic languages, 5 in the Semitic languages, and 4 in the Indo-European languages. [*]

The Sumerian as a *post Catastrophism/migration reality?
the debate....showed up fully fledged in social net around 4000 BC....some comment they could go back to 8000 BC in some social form.

connected to this is the Accadians with their God *El.

So ya..the Moses period and the Law..El ref God can do...ie El-ohim..El -Shaddia etc.
amazing that this foundation /view would remain so long after the break up of the Sumerians.

just how far back does the Worship of El go?

all these fragments are tantalizing....
Several Ancient Hebrew works Redactly comment about Migration....Catastrophism is not really front and centre in the works though.
The Redactl seems to be focused/lofted upon keeping the societal Bond with *El Alive..accompanied by teaching construct.

Too bad the Library in Alexandria was destroyed...3 times?..anyhoo..there must have been ancient notary there...stuff Bronze age period would see as Ancient and mythological.

From where I sit...there does seem to be a reality of societal structure going way back....and yet...it has this rise/fall reality...with migration.
The Moon is something in the mix of all this....ie..no moon..then a moon.

I imagine impactors are part and parcell of the equation too.

Of note...The Mythological name assigned to Tiahuanaco -is City of the Falling Moon. : )

[SunkenCiv]

I used to virtually hang out with 'Gringo' on the Globe (a defunct forum system) whose real name is, well, that's not important. He's got a book out in a new edition, and lives in a predominantly Moslem country, so let's skip his real name. We used to email back and forth a bit, and regarding a public discussion of the Rudgley book, he wrote:

"The archaeologist in the Rudgley book got involved in researching clay figures that are found in the thousands all over Mesopotamian and other Middle Eastern sites dating from 8,000 to 6,000 BC. These are little clay geometric shapes, sometimes with odd markings, and later become a bit more complex, in shapes of animals, etc.

"It turns out that these were an early accounting system, as she discovered when she came across a clay 'envelope': a kind of egg-shaped jar containing about 26 of these clay tokens, with an inscription on the jar enumerating them and what they represented. (She calls it her 'Rosetta Stone'.)

"With some further research she was able to show how these geometric clay tokens came to be represented by line drawings that imitated their original shape as the ancient accountants (about as swift as their present day counterparts) eventually, after like thousands of years, realized they could use a two-dime method of counting sheep and wheat rather than the more cumbersome three-dime method."

[SunkenCiv]

Slight ping, not from a list per se, merely to those who have posted to or been posted to in this topic.

Zangger writes of getting talked into participation in research about the supposed mighty Thera eruption, caldera collapse, and tsunami. He and a colleague looked over Thera, found no sign of such a massive eruption, not even significant earthquake damage. Furthermore, the Minoans cities and towns (including a palace) on the northern coast of Crete show no damage -- apart from fire. The thickest layer of Theran ash on Crete (the eastern end) is 5 millimeters. On Rhodes the ash is as much as 60 centimeters, but there is no sign of abandonment of Rhodes thereafter. [pp 35-46]

The Future of the Past: Archaeology in the 21st Century by Eberhard Zangger

Austrian archaeologists in their excavations at Auaris on the Nile Delta have actually found a large quantity of pumice stone, which undoubtedly came from Thera. The stratification of the layers in which the pumice stone was found indicates a time around 1500 BC, between the reign-periods of the pharaohs Ahmose and Thutmosis III. [pp 50-51] The Minoan ash and pumice layers are, by comparison, decidedly thin, and, in addition, they do not by any means cover the whole of the island group. [p 297]

Pumice floats; contrary to what some seemed to have claimed, there do not exist cubic kilometers of pumice stone from Thera; the ashfall is generally believed to have been carried SE by the winds.

Addenda and Corrections to "The Exodus Chronicles"
by Marianne Luban

Recently, in relation to his ongoing excavation at Tell el Daba, which he believes to be the site of ancient Avaris, Manfred Bietak has rescinded his former assertion that the stratum in which Minoan artifacts, decorations and volcanic pumice were discovered belongs to the time of the pharaoh, Ahmose I. Bietak now concludes this stratum can be assigned to the reign of Thutmose III, instead. Bietak also dates the eruption of Thera to ca. 1500 BCE, in light of his new theory, and takes issue with those who place the cataclysmic event to about 130 years earlier. In brief, Bietak now wishes to eliminate any chronological problems connected with his newer theory. Even if he is correct and there was no volcanic blast in the Aegean at the time of King Ahmose, there still remains the unaccountably bad weather and flooding during his reign, as recorded by himself.

And then there is the interesting premise of the Thera volcano devastation while a "Tethmosis" was pharaoh, two disasters having then occurred within a half century--or less.

IOW, this supposed huge eruption left its traces far more recently than the 1620s BC. Here are some of Bietak's Minoan finds, from "Minoan Wall-Paintings unearthed at Ancient Avaris":

Gallery 1
Gallery 2
Gallery 3

Minoan art was widely popular during the heyday of that civilization. Here's a formerly prosperous site with a history of occupation stretching from the Middle Kingdom, through the Hyksos / 2nd IP, into the New Kingdom.

Helmi, Ezbet

Formerly called Tell el-Qirqafa. Amsterdam University survey of 1984 noted the presence of a quartzite block in the village, measuring 100 x (75+) x 17cm, pierced by a central square shaft. This site was probably the location of the Djadu of the 12th dynasty, found by Labib Habachi. Now the site is the focus of a major excavation by the Austrian Institute, working under cultivated fields some 800 metres west of their excavations at Tell ed-Daba. Major discoveries include Minoan wall paintings, an Eighteenth Dynasty palace, a Hyksos palace and water-supply system.

[ValerieUSA]

I thought you were hanging out with me at the Globe!
Who is gringo, really? You can tell me.......

[SunkenCiv]

Gringo was someone I hung out with also. :')

[SunkenCiv]

Here's the abstract I thought I'd lost. I'm way behind on stuff...

Identification of Aniakchak (Alaska) tephra
in Greenland ice core
challenges the 1645 BC date
for Minoan eruption of Santorini
Nicholas J. G. Pearce
John A. Westgate and Shari J. Preece
Warren J. Eastwood
William T. Perkins

Minute shards of volcanic glass recovered from the 1645 ± 4 BC layer in the Greenland GRIP ice core have recently been claimed to originate from the Minoan eruption of Santorini [Hammer et al., 2003]. This is a significant claim because a precise age for the Minoan eruption provides an important time constraint on the evolution of civilizations in the Eastern Mediterranean. There are however significant differences between the concentrations of SiO2, TiO2, MgO, Ba, Sr, Nb and LREE between the ice core glass and the Minoan eruption, such that they cannot be correlatives. New chemical analyses of tephra from the Late Holocene eruption of the Aniakchak Volcano in Alaska, however, show a remarkable similarity to the ice core glass for all elements, and this eruption is proposed as the most likely source of the glass in the GRIP ice core. This provides a precise date of 1645 BC for the eruption of Aniakchak and is the first firm identification of Alaskan tephra in the Greenland ice cores. The age of the Minoan eruption of Santorini, however, remains unresolved.

[SunkenCiv]

Nothing like "Atlantis" in the title to really move a book. I don't buy it, so to speak. :')

---

Fire in the Sea: The Santorini Volcano: Natural History and the Legend of Atlantis by Walter L. Friedrich tr by Alexander R. McBirney

---

[SunkenCiv]

first quarter 2005 bump:

Linear B Tablets and Mycenaean Social, Political, and Economic Organization
Lesson 25, The Prehistoric Archaeology of the Aegean
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000 | Trustees of Dartmouth College
Posted on 08/29/2004 8:19:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1202723/posts

[SunkenCiv]

Hebrews, Israelites, Jews

PROBLEMS WITH MT. SINAI IN SAUDI ARABIA
Compiled by Brad Sparks
http://www.ldolphin.org/sinai.html

A diagnosis for a biblical plague?
Tomb could hold clue to Moses legend
By Charles M. Sennott
The Boston Globe
May 18, 2005
Article Last Updated: 11/26/2004 11:47:21 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_2475207

The Reality of Ancient Catastrophism
The Cydonia Files | November 7, 2001 | Joe Schembrie
Posted on 11/07/2001 9:12:46 AM PST by JoeSchem
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/565860/posts

Biblical Plagues and Parting of Red Sea caused by Volcano
News.telegraph.co.uk | 11/11/02 | John Petre
Posted on 11/11/2002 12:44:06 PM PST by Betty Jane
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/786902/posts

Scientist Defends Account Of Exodus
Washington Post | 4-10-2003 | Richard N. Ostling
Posted on 04/11/2003 1:52:30 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891225/posts

Moses' Egyptian Name
Biblical Archaeology | 5-30-2003 | Ogden Goelet
Posted on 05/30/2003 11:32:54 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/920412/posts

Digging Out The Truth Of Exodus
USN&WR | 10-20-2003 | Helen Fields
Posted on 10/12/2003 10:27:46 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/999861/posts

Tomb May Shed Light On 10th Plague
Boston Globe | 11-23-2004 | Charles M. Sennott
Posted on 11/23/2004 6:11:43 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1287173/posts

The Ten Lost Tribes: The Case for Afghanistan, Kashmir, and Pakistan
Moshiach.com | current | moshiach.com
Posted on 09/24/2001 8:53:22 AM PDT by xzins
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/531159/posts

Egyptian Jurists Sue 'The Jews' for Compensation...
of Gold Allegedly Stolen During Exodus from Egypt
Memri.org | 8/09/03 | Dr. Nabil Hilmi,
Dean of the Faculty of Law at the University of Al-Zaqaziq
Posted on 08/21/2003 12:48:59 PM PDT by adam_az
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/968120/posts

13th Century Tablet Could Lead To Lost Archives Of Ramses II
ABC News | 9-27-2003
Posted on 09/28/2003 9:31:05 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/991032/posts

Nefertiti's 'Love Affair' With Moses to Hit the Silver Screen
Yahoo News! | Fri Apr 8
Posted on 04/08/2005 4:21:11 PM PDT by nickcarraway
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1380126/posts

3rd Millennium BC

Slam, bang, thanks Saddam: new meteor theory
The Sunday Telegraph via Sydney Morning Herald | 11/06/01 | Robert Matthews
Posted on 11/05/2001 7:38:35 AM PST by dead
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/564185/posts

Meteor Clue To End Of Middle East Civilisations
The Telegraph (UK) | 11-04-2001 | Robert Matthews
Posted on 01/03/2002 10:50:09 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/601395/posts

A Catastrophical Scenario For Discontinuities In Human History
Journal of New England Antiquities Research Association, 26, 1-14, 1991
First version published in 1985 as Quaderno 85/3
Emilio Spedicato - University of Bergamo
Posted on 04/19/2002 12:42:27 PM PDT by vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/669263/posts

Comets, Meteors & Myth: New Evidence For Toppled Civilizations And Biblical Tales
Science Tuesday/Space.com | 11-13-2002 | Robert Roy Brit
Posted on 08/11/2002 5:32:56 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/731502/posts

Evidence for Major Impact Events in the late Third Millennium BC
Evidence of Astronomical Aspects of Mankind's Past and Recent Climate Homepage
FR Post 9-4-2 | Timo Niroma
Posted on 09/04/2002 4:48:54 PM PDT by vannrox
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/744698/posts

2nd Millennium BC

Sodom and Gomorrah are 'found at bottom of Dead Sea'
Source: Electronic Telegraph
Published: Sunday 26 March 2000 Author: By Jonathan Petre
Posted on 03/25/2000 20:24:34 PST by ironwill
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a38dd9102796f.htm

Scientists uncover Sodom's fiery end
Source: BBC
Published: 18 August 2001 Author: Andrew Craig
Posted on 08/18/2001 11:32:11 PDT by AdrianZ
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b7eb4ab1456.htm

1st Millennium BC

Satellite Images 'Show Atlantis'
BBC | 6-6-2004 | Paul Rincon
Posted on 06/06/2004 10:00:25 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1148579/posts

AD

Catastrophic event preceded Dark Ages - scientist
Source: Reuters
Posted on 09/08/2000 10:06:44 PDT by VadeRetro
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a39b91ca42b27.htm

Warmer Periods In Alaska
Source: ScienceDaily.com
Published: 8-21-2001 Author: Hu, Brown & Engstrom
Posted on 08/21/2001 16:02:08 PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b82e8702a92.htm

The Dark Ages: Were They Darker Than We Imagined?
Universe | Sept 99 | Greg Bryant
Posted on 09/24/2002 11:18:33 AM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/756422/posts

Evidence Of Tunguska-Type Impacts Over The Pacific Basin Around The Year 1178 AD
SIS Conference | Emilio Spedicato
Posted on 01/26/2003 9:36:14 AM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/829934/posts

Astronomers unravel a mystery of the Dark Ages
EurekAlert | 3-Feb-2004 | Dr Derek Ward-Thompson
Posted on 02/03/2004 2:54:24 PM PST by ckilmer
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1070892/posts

Is Yahweh punishing the enemies of Israel with natural disasters?
Posted on 02/01/2005 5:38:05 AM PST by BlackJack
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1333341/posts

Treasure from the Deep: Drinking Water
BusinessWeek | MAY 1, 2003 | Jane Black
Posted on 05/02/2003 6:24:55 PM PDT by Willie Green
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/904913/posts

[SunkenCiv]

Santorini tephra from Rhodes
C. Doumas & L. Papazoglou
Department of Antiquities
National Archaeological Museum
Tositsa 1, Athens, Greece
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v287/n5780/abs/287322a0.html

"We describe here recent excavations at lalysos (Trianda) on Rhodes which have produced further evidence of the southeasterly distribution of the Thera tephra. Although a considerable amount of this tephra has been found there, this does not seem to have affected the continuity of life at the settlement, corroborating the view that the ash fall over Crete would have had little, if any, effect."

[SunkenCiv]

Oooh, a link here found somewhere else:

http://www.factbites.com/topics/1620s-BC

[blam]

So, I shouldn't believe that Thera is the cause of the 'blip' in the tree-ring dates at 1628BC? And, also not use it as a method of dating the Exodus?

That was one of my (Mike Baillie's) favorite theories...I'm not sure I want to part with it yet. (Shoot!)

[SunkenCiv]

The Exodus dates to about 1450 BC, the actual end of the Middle Kingdom; meanwhile, the New Kingdom is dated centuries too high, having started during the reign of King Saul in Israel. The Thera eruption (the massive one) took place circa 22,000 years ago; the caldera seen today as the harbor was formed then. :')

The only major eruption in historical times dates to circa 200 BC, which goes a long way toward explaining how Herodotus (who lived before that) doesn't mention it, even though he talks quite a bit about Santorini / Thera / Calliste.

As consolation to you...

It also means that Plato didn't base his Atlantis story on the eruption of Thera, since A) it hadn't happened yet, unless one counts the 22,000 year BP major eruption, and B) never made sense in the first place.

:'D

[blam]

"It also means that Plato didn't base his Atlantis story on the eruption of Thera.

I'm leaning toward SE Asia for the site of Atlantis these days.

Now, about Thera, I'm not gonna throw out the 1628BC date just yet. There's a lot of (other) supporting evidence for a major eruption at that time.

[SunkenCiv]

AFAIK, there isn't any supporting evidence anywhere for it. The stuff that got buried isn't from that long ago (not by a long shot); there's no evidence that the island was abandoned for a long time, and no human remains have ever been found; the houses appear to have been stripped bare, suggesting that earthquakes tipped off the residents that they'd better get out; there's no literary evidence for any eruption there (apart from the 200 BC eruption); there's not even a blown-out city core -- the caldera is prehistoric.

[SunkenCiv]

It's a little strange to me that the Thera eruption -- 22,000 years ago -- hasn't been fingered by someone out there as the cause, or a cause, or a contributing factor, of the most recent glaciation. :') I don't see it as such, but it's still strange that no one has.

[blam]

"AFAIK, there isn't any supporting evidence anywhere for it. "

There is ash and pumice in Egypt tied to Thera and dated 1628BC+- and a tsunami on Crete dated to 1645BC+-.

Sometimes the ice layers are compressed, melt together or completly missing. I think they are a very good indicator but not 'fool-proof.' We'll have more data within the next five years or so...

[SunkenCiv]

"There is ash and pumice in Egypt tied to Thera and dated 1628BC+- and a tsunami on Crete dated to 1645BC+-."

There are deposits believed to be from Thera. The 1628 BC date is based on the ice core evidence, and that doesn't exist any longer. Depending on the depth (and remember, these deposits are not found in contexts by which they can be dated through ruins), they could be from 200 BC, or they could be from 22,000 BC.

There was never a tsunami on Crete in historical times. There's no geological trace of it. The very towns -- contemporary with the supposed supereruption -- which face Santorini show no signs of being overwhelmed by a tsunami. Some of them were burned, but that's consistent with sacking by human hordes. That's a situation to be expected, since inland towns in Crete and on the Greek mainland show the same signs.

[blam]

"There was never a tsunami on Crete in historical times. There's no geological trace of it. The very towns -- contemporary with the supposed supereruption -- which face Santorini show no signs of being overwhelmed by a tsunami."

Lighten up a little.

Thera, Ancient Greece, 1645BC

The volcanic eruption of the ancient Greek island of Thera was among the largest in thousands of years. Thera's blast collapsed its cone, producing a tsunami often blamed for the fall of the Minoan civilization on nearby Crete. Little scientific evidence for this theory existed until recently, when geologists finally uncovered proof that the tsunami's waves were massive when they hit Crete. They would have destroyed ports, crippled the maritime economy, and led to devastating crop failures, potentially catalyzing the Minoans' decline in subsequent years. Research into Thera's tsunami is ongoing.

[blam]

"Some of them were burned, but that's consistent with sacking by human hordes."

This occurred within 50 years after the tsaunami hit Crete. Some suspect the 'hordes' were the Mycenes(sp).

[SunkenCiv]

Hey, I'm lighter than air. ;') Since the tsunami never existed in historial times, the hordes must have come first. :') The Mycenaeans were indeed the horde though. Regardless of what PBS says, there is absolutely no evidence of any tsunami in historical times on Crete, other than those of recent centuries, all of which were mild, and in each case caused by earthquakes. There's some ancient damage which could have been caused by earthquake.

[SunkenCiv]

Akrotiri on Thera, the Santorini Volcano and the Middle and Late Cycladic Periods in the Central Aegean Islands
Trustees of Dartmouth College
Bronze Age Aegean chap 17
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000

most of the pumice from the eruption is found to the southeast of Santorini. The Greek Mainland and western Crete would have been altogether unaffected by the ash fall, but eastern Crete would have been covered by a maximum of ten, and more probably by between one and five, centimeters of fine pumice. Archaeologists eager to establish a correlation between the Theran eruption and the collapse of Neopalatial Crete feel that such a quantity of ash would have had a disastrous effect on agriculture in eastern Crete. However, others point out that such a relatively thin layer of pumice would have been eroded away by wind and rain within a year or two and would in fact enhance rather than detract from the fertility of the soil. A layer of Theran ash was identified in the late 1980's in some lake sediments in western Anatolia, indicating that the windborne dispersal of this ash had a much more northern and eastern distribution than previously suspected... Doumas in fact claimed that the collapse of the magma chamber and hence the appearance of the tidal wave was an event which postdated the volcanic eruption itself by a decade or more... More recently, the vulcanologists have claimed that the Santorini caldera formed quite gradually and that a tidal wave, if indeed there was one at all, would not have been on anything like the scale envisaged by Marinatos and other proponents of the link between the Theran volcano and the sudden decline of Neopalatial Crete... the simple facts are that the great earthquake which badly damaged Akrotiri is to be dated quite early in LM IA (either ca. 1650 or ca. 1560 B.C.?), that the entire town was buried in meters of volcanic ash still within the LM IA period (ca. 1625 or ca. 1550/1540 B.C.?), and that the wave of destructions (most of them including fires) which defines the end of the Neopalatial period on Crete and to which the palaces at Mallia, Phaistos, and Zakro all fell victim cannot be dated earlier than LM IB (ca. 1480/1470 B.C.?). Hood [TAW I (1978) 681-690] claims that clear evidence of the earthquake which so severely damaged Akrotiri before the town was buried is to be found at several sites on Crete where it is clearly dated to LM IA. More importantly, tephra from the later eruption of the Theran volcano has been found within the past decade in LM IA contexts on Rhodes (at Trianda) and Melos (at Phylakopi) as well as on Crete itself, ample confirmation that the eruption preceded the LM IB destruction horizon on Crete by a significant amount of time. Thus no direct correlation can be established between the Santorini volcano and the collapse of Neopalatial Minoan civilization.

One point I'm trying to make here is that the academics who promote the historicity of the huge volcanic eruption seize on anything and everything that seems to help, then when shown to be incorrect, retreat to another fallback position and pick up whatever else is around. It's not a scholarly approach, and reminds me mostly of the global warming demagogues, who keep retreating from one unsupported position to another, as the data continues to build showing that climate change is natural, that the oceans are not warming at depth, that sealevel isn't rising, etc.

---

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---

[SunkenCiv]

To reemphasize:

Akrotiri on Thera, the Santorini Volcano
and the Middle and Late Cycladic Periods
in the Central Aegean Islands
Bronze Age Aegean chap 17
Trustees of Dartmouth College
Revised: Friday, March 18, 2000

[T]he simple facts are that the great earthquake which badly damaged Akrotiri is to be dated quite early in LM IA (either ca. 1650 or ca. 1560 B.C.?), that the entire town was buried in meters of volcanic ash still within the LM IA period (ca. 1625 or ca. 1550/1540 B.C.?), and that the wave of destructions (most of them including fires) which defines the end of the Neopalatial period on Crete and to which the palaces at Mallia, Phaistos, and Zakro all fell victim cannot be dated earlier than LM IB (ca. 1480/1470 B.C.?). Hood [TAW I (1978) 681-690] claims that clear evidence of the earthquake which so severely damaged Akrotiri before the town was buried is to be found at several sites on Crete where it is clearly dated to LM IA. More importantly, tephra from the later eruption of the Theran volcano has been found within the past decade in LM IA contexts on Rhodes (at Trianda) and Melos (at Phylakopi) as well as on Crete itself, ample confirmation that the eruption preceded the LM IB destruction horizon on Crete by a significant amount of time. Thus no direct correlation can be established between the Santorini volcano and the collapse of Neopalatial Minoan civilization.

Mostly I'm updating the GGG information, and therefore not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

Geoarchaeology:
The Earth-Science Approach to Archaeological Interpretation
by George (Rip) Rapp, Jr. and Christopher L. Hill

p 158-159 -- "Artifacts from Akrotiri, linked to the Egyptian calendar [sic] put the Thera eruption at more than a hundred years later [than 1644 +/- 20 BC]. While the controversy remains open, it is our view that the volcanic activity recorded in the Greenland ice core more likely came from nearby Iceland than from the eastern Mediterranean (this may be testable by any chemical signature).

p 166 -- "Living samples from a freshwater lake on limestone terrain have been known to give a radiocarbon date of up to 1600 BP."

Debate erupts anew:
Did Thera's explosion
doom Minoan Crete?
William J. Broad NYT
Thursday, October 23, 2003

In 1939, Spyridon Marinatos, a Greek archaeologist, proposed that the eruption wrecked Minoan culture on Thera and Crete. He envisioned the damage as done by associated earthquakes and tsunamis. While geologists found tsunamis credible, they doubted the destructive power of Thera's earthquakes, saying volcanic ones tend to be relatively mild... Despite the power of Thera, the Danish scientists' evidence raised doubts about its links to the Minoan decline. Their date for Thera's explosion, 1645 B.C., based on frozen ash in Greenland, is some 150 years earlier than the usual date. Given that the Minoan fall was usually dated to 1450 B.C., the gap between cause and effect seemed too large. Another blow landed in 1989 when scholars on Crete found, above a Thera ash layer, a house that had been substantially rebuilt in the Minoan style. It suggested at least partial cultural survival. By 1996, experts like Jeremy Rutter, head of classics at Dartmouth, judged the chronological gap too extreme for any linkage. "No direct correlation can be established" between the volcano and the Minoan decline, he concluded.

[SunkenCiv]

[SunkenCiv]

---

---

[SunkenCiv]

more about irrelevant radiocarbon results:

ARCHAEOLOGY: New Carbon Dates Support Revised History of Ancient Mediterranean
Science Magazine | 4/28/2006 | Michael Balter
Posted on 04/27/2006 7:59:30 PM EDT by Lessismore
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1622847/posts

Olive branch solves a Bronze Age mystery
Yahoo/MSNBC (Science) | 3:04 p.m. ET April 27, 2006 | Kathleen Wren
Posted on 04/28/2006 8:59:40 AM EDT by The_Victor
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1623102/posts

Debate Erupts Anew: Did Thera's Explosion Doom Minoan Crete?
International Herald Tribune | 10-23-2003 | William J. Broad
Posted on 10/23/2003 5:47:33 PM EDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1006850/posts

[SunkenCiv]

oops, still more:

Ancient Volcano, Seeds And Treerings, Suggest Rewriting Late Bronze Age Mediterranean History (More)
Cornell University | 4-28-2006 | Alex Kwan
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1623821/posts

[SunkenCiv]

Sturt Manning (message 8) has done an about face now, and sez the eruption was 17th century BC. He's wrong again. Anyway, here's something I came across while looking for, hmm, anyway, not this:

[b-hebrew] Ark of the Covenant
Michael Banyai Banyai
Fri Aug 20 15:04:00 EDT 2004

...according to Sturt Manning, an expert on the matter, personal information to me, the Tel ed Daba pumice proves chemicaly not to be of Theran provenance, so it has no sense lowering the date of the Theran eruption.

The Theran eruption remains thus still cca. 1618 BC, and has nothing to do with the 18th dynasty.

[SunkenCiv]

The Thera (Santorini) Volcanic Eruption
and the Absolute Chronology
of the Aegean Bronze Age
by Sturt Manning

Pumice at Tell el-Dab'a. Some pumice from the Minoan eruption of the Thera volcano has been found in an early New Kingdom (18th Dynasty) at Tell el-Dab'a, and not before. Thus Warren suggests (as has been suggested in several publications by Bietak and Warren from 1994-1998) that the eruption probably occurred about the same time... The pumice could either have been lying on the seashore for a long time before collection, or could come from post-eruption collection of pumice in the Aegean and subsequent trade to Egypt. It is certainly not necessary to regard the pumice as at all contemporary with the eruption... This scenario of potentially significantly later, post-eruption, use of the Theran pumice at Tell el-Dab'a finds some support in a recent scientific examination by Max Bichler et al. They report on the analysis of three pumice samples from Tell el-Dab'a. They found that only two of the three pumice samples analysed from Tell el-Dab'a came from the Minoan eruption of Thera. The third sample, in contrast, comes from another eruption. This third sample (Tell el-Dab'a3) is very similar to pumice found at Antalya, Turkey, and on the Greek island of Chios... This finding thus challenges the a priori assumption of special, contemporaneous, and unique use of Thera pumice and the idea that its use at Tell el-Dab'a can be seen as a chronological marker... Second, if one looks for another suitable, roughly contemporary, and chemically consistent, volcanic source, then one might speculate that a likely source of the pumice in the Tell el-Dab'a3, Antalya, and Chios, samples in the study of Bichler et al. could well be the Yiali (Nissyros) volcano in the east Aegean... POSTSCRIPT JANUARY 2000. The Tell el-Dab'a3 samples have now been identified as related to the Kos volcano (Peltz et al. 1999). The general argument about use of differing pumices of differing ages remains valid, nonetheless.

The pumice came from the Kos volcano. Imagine that. Doesn't it seem likely that someone would have got that right in the first place, if they hadn't been saddling on every little thing as proof of a mega-eruption?

What this pumice controversy shows is, there was a rush to embrace the supposed 17th c BC eruption -- even though there is literally no evidence that it even ever took place -- and that the Tell el-Dab'a finds were redated from 2nd IP to 18th Dynasty in part because of the chronological impossibilities brought on by raising the date of the supposed eruption (there's no evidence for any major eruption, certainly not the apocalyptic vision of the bulk of the Volcanimbeciles). Using the pumice to say, hey, look, this pumice fell and was in use right away was a weak argument, and shows just how far gone the conventional pseudochronology has become.

[SunkenCiv]

Bietak, Manfred (2004),
"Review: Sturt W. Manning--A Test of Time (Oxbow, 1999)",
Bibliotheca Orientalis 61: 199-222.
http://www.informath.org/BiOr04i.pdf

saw this at:
http://www.glyphdoctors.com/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=662

[gleeaikin]

Volcanic evidence around 1500 BCE.

Checking out major volcanic activity in the Mediterranean for those centuries turns up a major eruption of Mt. Etna listed as 1500 BC, +- 50 years. I have check out various Mt. Etna sites, but find very little information about this eruption, except it probably left a very large collapsed area like Mt. St. Helens. I think the name was Valle del Bove (sp?). I really wonder why scientists have not paid more attention to this eruption, as the severe decline of the Minoans took place around this time. I have seen an areal photo of a much smaller recent eruption of Mt. Etna with a pronounced plume being blown directly toward north Africa.

Other research I have heard of indicated that Santorini had several earthquakes and was evacuated about 20 years before the big one.

[gleeaikin]

"I'm not sure I want to part with it yet."

Check out my comment #47, wherein I discuss the major eruption of Mt. Etna, 1500BCE + - 50 years. If anything is related to Exodus, that one is. Besides it may have been part of a much larger series of tectonic events aroung the Mediterranean and the Sinai. I think Exodus took place during the 18th Dynasty. I think that Hatshepsut may have been involved somewhere in the Moses story, or Amenhotep II, or both at different times. I am still working on those theories.

[gleeaikin]

"I'm not sure I want to part with it yet."

Check out my comment #47, wherein I discuss the major eruption of Mt. Etna, 1500BCE + - 50 years. If anything is related to Exodus, that one is. Besides it may have been part of a much larger series of tectonic events aroung the Mediterranean and the Sinai. I think Exodus took place during the 18th Dynasty. I think that Hatshepsut may have been involved somewhere in the Moses story, or Amenhotep II, or both at different times. I am still working on those theories. At any rate I don't think Ramases II was involved. [My computer is acting weird, so pardon any double posts.]

[blam]

"[My computer is acting weird, so pardon any double posts.]"

It's not awake yet...and, I don't know what I'm doing up at this time.