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When did the horse get to America? Did the Native Americans Really Have the Horse Before Columbus?
Yuri Kuchinsky's web pages ^ | circa 1998 | Yuri Kuchinsky

Posted on 11/29/2005 8:24:25 PM PST by SunkenCiv

...As I mentioned before, many Native Americans believe that horse was in America many centuries before Columbus. Pony Boy gives one of such traditional narratives in his book, although, it needs to be noted, he generally tends to support the mainstream academic view of horse history in America.

Here's a picture of a very unusual "Przewalski horse".

This wild horse is still found in Mongolia. It is so different, it has 66 chromosomes as compared to the 64 that we find in all other horses. This is a very primitive kind of horse, the one probably quite similar to what the ancient peoples first domesticated. (Nevertheless, some researchers believe that it represents a whole different species as compared to our domesticated horses.)

(Excerpt) Read more at trends.ca ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: archaeology; godsgravesglyphs; history; vikings
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1 posted on 11/29/2005 8:24:26 PM PST by SunkenCiv
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
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2 posted on 11/29/2005 8:25:05 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

We've done alot of digging, alot of construction near rivers, alot of agriculture on the great plains.

Bones?
Teeth?

If there were horses here, the odds are phenomenal we'd have fossil evidence.


3 posted on 11/29/2005 8:28:12 PM PST by djf (Government wants the same things I do - MY guns, MY property, MY freedoms!)
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To: SunkenCiv

The Mongols conquered half the known universe with the Przewalski horse. This breed's endurance and stamina is commendable.


4 posted on 11/29/2005 8:28:31 PM PST by indcons (Don't question either my intelligence or my ability; I have none.)
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chromosome counts donkey horse zebra
Google
"horses have 64 chromosomes whereas donkeys have 62" [WikiPedia]
5 posted on 11/29/2005 8:28:50 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I don't think so. There is no evidence across the Americas of the Incas, Mayans or any of those cultures having any sort of beast of burden.


6 posted on 11/29/2005 8:34:56 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: djf

The odds are phenomenal that we wouldn't.

Fossilization is rare.

Even remains are rare; in the US, human remains create a big fight (under NAGPRA) precisely because they are so rare. In the case of the tribes, there were different methods of dealing with the deceased, including excarnation (exposure to be eaten by animals).

Glaciation has happened for long periods, altering the landscape.

And the number one answer...

No one has even bothered to look, because, after all, everyone knows that a few horses lost by Coronado's expedition produced all the horses used by all the tribes which used horses.

Coronado wandered around circa 1540, and AFAIK no artifacts from his expedition have ever been found (and people have looked). Horses were widespread in use (particularly west of the Mississippi, but not exclusively so), so much so that the Lewis and Clark expedition took it for granted when they found members of tribes on horseback.


7 posted on 11/29/2005 8:39:08 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

http://www.beringia.com/02/02maina14.html

"The Yukon horse (Equus lambei) was a relatively small caballoid (closely related to the modern horse Equus caballus) species. It occupied steppe-like grasslands of Eastern Beringia (unglaciated parts of Alaska, Yukon and adjacent Northwest Territories) in great numbers, and was one of the commonest Ice Age (the Quaternary, or last 2 million years) species known from that region..."


8 posted on 11/29/2005 8:39:41 PM PST by Rocky (Air America: Robbing the poor to feed the Left)
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To: SunkenCiv
Heavenly Horses
9 posted on 11/29/2005 8:42:58 PM PST by blam
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To: Sam Gamgee

Well, the Incas used llamas for hauling stuff. Also, the landscape was different in Central and South America. While that's also home to the jaguar, it would stand to reason that the cougar in North America would pose a similar threat to wild horses (which wouldn't be that much, apart from the old and infirm, the sick, and the very young).

I'm not aware that there are any surviving images of the horse in the Central American writing systems. But then, I wasn't trying to make that case.


10 posted on 11/29/2005 8:45:04 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
I'm under the belief that all the horses in the world have their origins in the Americas. Am I wrong?
11 posted on 11/29/2005 8:48:56 PM PST by blam
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To: Rocky

Nice!

Here's something about zebras:

Zebra Crossing
American Long Ears Society
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/2905/zebxing.html

"the Grevy's zebra has 46 chromosomes, the Mountain zebras has 32, while the plains h[a]ve 44"


12 posted on 11/29/2005 8:58:50 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: blam

That used to be the belief, dunno if it's still generally believed. Used to be the wolf was thought to be from the Americas, and spread into Asia, etc, giving us the domesticated dog after some time. :') Camels also existed in the Americas (fossil record) and went extinct. When the sea level was hundreds of feet lower (which happened a number of times), the continental shelf was exposed, and I think the continental shelf had it going on... :')

Nice page about the "Heavenly Horse" BTW.


13 posted on 11/29/2005 9:02:57 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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a link from Yuri's page (also by Yuri):

http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/tran/9h8.htm

"In the Milwaukee Public Museum there is the skull of a mustang excavated in 1936 by W.C. McKern from a mound on Spencer Lake in NW Wisconsin (47BT2), and vouched for by McKern in the _Wisconsin Archaeologist_, Vol. 45, #2 (June 1964), pp. 118-120. Says McKern , 'there remains no reasonable question as to the legitimacy of the horse skull that we found as a burial association placed in the mound by its builders.'"


14 posted on 11/29/2005 9:07:10 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Everything I've ever read is pretty clear that horses started out in the Americas, but went extinct here long before humans arrived. Modern horses are descended from ones who migrated from the Americas into Asia over the land bridge between Alaska and Siberia. When the Spaniards brought horses with them into the Americas, they were just re-introducing horses to the continent of their beginnings.

It's fairly well documented that before Columbus arrived, the largest domestic animals in the Americas were Llamas (if you can consider a creature as full of spite and spit as a Llama "domesticated"). While it is possible that the scandinavians might have brought domesticated horses and cattle with them on their explorations and failed colonization of the Americans around the beginning of the second millenium, there is no evidence thus far of native domestication of equus before Columbus. Any horses encountered by precolumbian humans in the Americas would most likely have been eaten, not ridden.

15 posted on 11/29/2005 9:07:44 PM PST by pillbox_girl
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To: blam

http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/tran/9h2.htm

"The assumption among historians is nearly universal that there were no horses in America before Columbus (except, of course, for those that became extinct very early on). I certainly cannot claim at this point that this assumption is incorrect. I can only say that there seem to be some assorted problems with this view, as well as a few troubling items (such as the horse skull) found in good precolumbian contexts."


16 posted on 11/29/2005 9:09:08 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Horses and camels originally evolved in North America, but left via the Land Bridge, apparently before our indigenous aboriginies {I was born here, so I'm a Native American] arrived. The Indians of the southern plains bred horses that escaped from the Spaniards, and from there the horse moved north. Indians used dogs to pull loads before they got horses. I beileve the Lakota phrase for horse, Tshunka Wakan [p/s] means "sacred dog". Indians hunted bison on foot prior to getting horses.I don't believe there's any evidence that Indians had horses before the arrival of the Spanish.


17 posted on 11/29/2005 9:10:31 PM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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This is kinda cool, another link from Yuri:

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/


18 posted on 11/29/2005 9:12:58 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: pillbox_girl

Larry J. Elmore
Bozeman, Montana
http://www.trends.ca/~yuku/tran/xhorse.htm

"Now it is known that the Vikings used horses and brought them to Iceland and Greenland. They are relatively small, varicolored ponies. They also released them to run wild. They captured new horses from the wild herds and also hunted and ate them at need. The Vikings are known to have had a settlement in Newfoundland. It would be ridiculous to presume that they didn't also visit the mainland, only a few hours sail away (though apparently some anthropologists hold to that view). This would explain both the physical characteristics of the Indian ponies and give the horses 500 more years to breed and spread across the continent, and to be domesticated and used by the Plains Indians."


19 posted on 11/29/2005 9:15:17 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
"Przewalski horse".

I believe I may have heard of this horse before. Is it the one that Poland was attempting to restore in Poland?

20 posted on 11/29/2005 9:15:54 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: pillbox_girl; PzLdr

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/1530960/posts?page=14#14


21 posted on 11/29/2005 9:16:29 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: Dustbunny

Dunno. I think I just read that Przewalski was Russian.


22 posted on 11/29/2005 9:17:46 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: Dustbunny

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/horses/przewalski/index.htm


23 posted on 11/29/2005 9:18:20 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: Dustbunny

Never mind that question, I guess it was not Poland that was attempting to restore the breed. That link was very helpful.


24 posted on 11/29/2005 9:25:04 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: SunkenCiv

The breed name stuck in my mind. I had read about it many (more than I want to admit to) years ago. I don't know why I thought it was Poland that was attempting to restore the breed.


25 posted on 11/29/2005 9:28:51 PM PST by Dustbunny (Main Stream Media -- Making 'Max Headroom' a reality.)
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To: SunkenCiv

And the number one answer...

No one has even bothered to look, because, after all, everyone knows that a few horses lost by Coronado's expedition produced all the horses used by all the tribes which used horses.

Not entirely true. Before the Spanish reintroduction of horses to the Americas, there is no evidence of domesticated horses in the archaeological record. After the reintroduction, evidence of domestic horses among the native plains populations rapidly became endemic. Why the sudden change? The possibility that a hypothetical native population of horses could go from invisible obscurity to universality in the archaeological record so quickly and coincidentally to the reintroduction of horses by the Spanish stretches the limits of credibility.

The incredible usefulness of the domestic horse makes it inconceivable that native Americans would not have exploited such an resource, had they been available. Before the arrival of the Spanish and their horses, the people of the great plains managed to scrape a subsistence by chasing buffalo over cliffs. After the reintroduction of horses, the intelligent and resourceful people of the plains rapidly capitalized on the potential of this new resource. Instead of waiting and hoping for a buffalo herd to wander close enough to a usable "buffalo jump", the horse allowed the plains people to run down the buffalo at will. Almost overnight we see in the archaeological record a shift in native plains cultures and economies around the horse.

26 posted on 11/29/2005 9:36:48 PM PST by pillbox_girl
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To: SunkenCiv

The Book of Mormon references horses existing in pre-columbus days.

Of course, most scientist have debuked this.


27 posted on 11/29/2005 9:46:52 PM PST by colorcountry (That's what happens when you fall for a pistol. (No, no, I don't mean no gun.))
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To: SunkenCiv
You're cherry picking the report. Further on it says there is at least anecdotal evidence the horse skull is a later introduction into the mound strata. While other items at the dig have been confirmed to be pre-columbian by carbon dating, the horse skull itself has not been objectively dated. For such a potentially archaeologically important find, especially one with verbal evidence against its legitimacy, accepting an age based on faith and the confirmed age of legitimate artifacts is unacceptable. "Piltdown Man" is an example of why this must be so.

The mustang skull itself will need to be carbon dated before it's purported age can be considered legitimate. Until then, it must be considered of dubious merit.

That being said, when it finally is carbon dated, if it does turn out to be legitimately pre-columbian, then it is probably one of the most significant finds in archeology.

28 posted on 11/29/2005 9:54:07 PM PST by pillbox_girl
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To: SunkenCiv
That the Norse explored the North American mainland is a given. We have clear archeologic evidence of their presence in Newfoundland, and written accounts of mainland explorations (grapes do not grow in Newfoundland, but are central to the sagas).

The possibility that they might have introduced a stable population of horses that survived them is a lot more dubious. The environment and climate of northeast America at the time was either frozen tundra or heavily forested, neither of which are environs suitable for exploting horses. This is especially true at the beginning of the second millenium when the northern hemisphere was entering a miniature ice age (which was what eventually wiped out the Norse population in Greenland).

Norse horses would have been of little use to the native Dorsett and Eskimo populations except as a short lived bonus source of meat. The chance that a small abandoned population could have survived the predations of both humans and animals to travel throught the forests to the inland plains where their natural gifts could be best exploited by the plains natives is infinitesimally small. Moreover, the amazing potential of the horse, upon arrival in the plains, means it would have been rapidly adopted and utilized by the population there as soon as it arrived. Which they did when the horse arrived from Spain, many centuries after the Norse left.

29 posted on 11/29/2005 10:24:12 PM PST by pillbox_girl
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To: blam
I'm under the belief that all the horses in the world have their origins in the Americas. Am I wrong?

I think that's well established. I've dug for fossils of an extinct miniature horse, Plesippus shoshonensis gidley, in the Hagerman Fossil Beds in southwest Idaho. The Hagerman Horse has the distinction of being the earliest record of Equus, the genus that includes all modern horses, donkeys, and zebras.

It's odd to find this thread right now. I'm re-reading DeVoto's edition of Lewis & Clark's journals and got to wondering how the Nez Perce became master horse-breeders so quickly after the horse's reintroduction to America. The Appaloosa breed (aka Palouse War Horse) was legendary in Idaho where I grew up.

It was interesting to read Lewis & Clark's praise about them. I agree there doesn't seem to be any hard evidence as yet that any such horses preceded Columbus. But I think there's some logic to the argument they came from an area where pre-Columbian contacts with Asia, if any, were likely to have occurred. But one has to ask: why the Nez Perce, a mountain tribe, and not aboriginals closer to the Pacific coast?

30 posted on 11/29/2005 10:43:12 PM PST by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: Bernard Marx
I'm re-reading DeVoto's edition of Lewis & Clark's journals and got to wondering how the Nez Perce became master horse-breeders so quickly after the horse's reintroduction to America.

The best estimate is that the horse was reintroduced to North America by Coronado's expeditions in the middle of the 1500's. The Lewis And Clark expedition was made in 1804. That's about 250 years for the Nez Perce to acquire the horse and become master horse breeders. Moreover, the introduction of the horse to the Nez Perce was at least as great a technological advancement as the introduction of the automobile in the last century. Do you also wonder how modern North Americans became master car builders so quickly after the automobile's introduction to America?

For a resource as revolutionary useful as the horse, two and a half centuries is more than enough time for a people to learn how to fully exploit it and then forget there was ever a time when they didn't have it. Especially when you consider that they preserved their history primarily orally, and the Spaniard's other gift to North America, smallpox, was incredibly effective at wiping out the older generations and their memories just as they were coming into contact with the horse for the first time.

Or, put another way, given the choice between spending my time hoping a buffalo herd wanders close enough to a cliff for me to stampede enough over it to make enough pemmican to survive the coming winter or just using a horse to follow the herds and run down individual buffalo as needed, I'd sure be spending my time learning how to ride and breed horses.

31 posted on 11/30/2005 1:25:34 AM PST by pillbox_girl
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To: SunkenCiv
The horse (equuis) did not "get" to north america. The horse in it's most modern and human-usable from evolved in north america. as did the camel, and migrated to the rest of the world
32 posted on 11/30/2005 3:30:23 AM PST by xcamel (a system poltergeist stole it.)
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To: SunkenCiv
......the Lewis and Clark expedition took it for granted when they found members of tribes on horseback.

On the other hand, every tribe on the great plains at that time, I think, had recent memories of acquiring horses and moving onto the plains.

33 posted on 11/30/2005 3:38:42 AM PST by jimtorr
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To: SunkenCiv
The story as I've pieced it together is that the North American horses migrated westward across the same ice age passageway that humans migrated eastward on. The early Americans ate all their horses while a group of west migrating horses ended up on the steppes just north of the Caucasus Mountains waiting to be domesticated somewhere between 5000 - 6000BC. This article suggests that the early Americans may not have eaten them all.
34 posted on 11/30/2005 7:08:46 AM PST by shuckmaster
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To: pillbox_girl
Do you also wonder how modern North Americans became master car builders so quickly after the automobile's introduction to America?

If it's so easy why have they forgotten how to do it so quickly, lol? I guess the "American" automobile is in process of going extinct and is being re-introduced from Asia and Europe, just like the horse was. And the horses didn't even have unions!

With a timeline of 250 years the scenario you discuss is certainly possible and probably likely. I wasn't even doubting it. I was 'wondering,' a pastime I think that is still allowed.

I was wondering how a rather minor tribe located about as far north from Spanish influence as possible within the current outline of the U.S., came into possession of such fine equine bloodlines. (Yes, I know about Indian skill at horse-stealing and that such a 'technological advancement' would be highly prized and rapidly disseminated).

I wonder why a tribe that didn't hunt buffalo regularly, being located in a non-buffalo region and being very fearful of the ferocious Blackfoot who dominated buffalo habitat on the western Great Plains, would be so focused on horse-breeding. I wonder how the concept of selective breeding came to them -- it certainly wasn't a common Indian practice to my knowledge.

Trade to pacify hostile neighbors might account for the focus on breeding. If you can't defeat your enemy in war it's a good idea to be the only source of a commodity he values. And of course selective breeding is simply a matter of careful observation and time. But we have no real idea of when the Nez Perce actually came into possession of their breeding stock or how long it took them to develop a breeding program.

I certainly don't underrate the Nez Perce. Later, with the Palouse War Horse as a resource, Chief Joseph ran humiliating circles around the U.S. Cavalry and almost escaped with his tribe's women and children to Canada. His defeat was one of the great unnecessary tragedies of Manifest Destiny and a lasting testament to his and his people's resourcefulness. But sometimes I still wonder and consider alternate possibilities ...

35 posted on 11/30/2005 8:36:14 AM PST by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: SunkenCiv

I've often wondered about the birth rate of cattle and horses deemed responsible for the launch of the Longhorns in Texas and wild horses all over the West.

I thought the birthrate would be about 1 per year. How much brood stock would it take to form huge herds of thousands of animals? Anyone with a math flair could figure out the geometric progression.

I've got some research that puts the first settlers in the Rio Grande valley in the early 1700s with 'thousands of cattle and horses) but where did they come from? Hard to believe the Spanish were bringing boatloads of animals over from 1512 onward.


36 posted on 11/30/2005 9:25:25 AM PST by wildbill
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To: SunkenCiv

The Icelandic's have a small sturdy horse similar to the Mongolian horse. http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/iceland.html Don't know how many chromasomes it has.


37 posted on 11/30/2005 10:11:39 AM PST by marsh2
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To: xcamel

I guess you've read the whole topic then/


38 posted on 11/30/2005 10:41:59 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: pillbox_girl

I'm not cherry picking the report, you are. As the anecdotal evidence points to an entirely different mound for the later introduction, there's no chance for the anecdote to have any bearing on it. No one in the report is accepting anything "based on faith", but the attitude that the horse was extinct in the Americas until the Coronado expedition reintroduced it -- an event for which there is testimony in firsthand accounts of the expedition, I'm sure -- is nothing but faith. Whether the horse was reintroduced is the question.


39 posted on 11/30/2005 10:49:16 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: shuckmaster

You're about 6-10 thousand years short. Even be bactrian camel has been domesticated for 8-10 thousand years, as the llama for at least 7500.


40 posted on 11/30/2005 10:56:15 AM PST by xcamel (a system poltergeist stole it.)
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To: pillbox_girl; jimtorr
pillbox_girl: Do you also wonder how modern North Americans became master car builders so quickly after the automobile's introduction to America?
No, I don't, considering that the original autos were just motorized carriages, the population was literate (and had been for a long while), and surrounded by products of the industrial age. But perhaps that was just a joke.
pillbox_girl: For a resource as revolutionary useful as the horse, two and a half centuries is more than enough time for a people to learn how to fully exploit it and then forget there was ever a time when they didn't have it. Especially when you consider that they preserved their history primarily orally, and the Spaniard's other gift to North America, smallpox, was incredibly effective at wiping out the older generations and their memories just as they were coming into contact with the horse for the first time.
250 years is long enough to forget the time before the horse, and just for good measure, the Spanish also introduced smallpox and wiped out the oral link to the past. IOW, there's no evidence that the tribes had the horse (apart from the burial of a horse skull in a 9th century mound) prior to 1540, and there's no evidence that the horse was introduced in 1540.
jimtorr: On the other hand, every tribe on the great plains at that time, I think, had recent memories of acquiring horses and moving onto the plains.
So, the tribes didn't have any memory of a time before the horse, according to PBG, or every tribe did have memories of the recent acquisition, according to Jim.

I'm definitely enjoying this topic, in case anyone wonders. :')
41 posted on 11/30/2005 11:01:29 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: Bernard Marx
why the Nez Perce, a mountain tribe, and not aboriginals closer to the Pacific coast?
Yes, why them, who had no contact with the Spanish? ;') The tribes moved around, though, so it's tough to point to points of origin.
42 posted on 11/30/2005 11:03:01 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: pillbox_girl
That the Norse explored the North American mainland is a given. We have clear archeologic evidence of their presence in Newfoundland, and written accounts of mainland explorations (grapes do not grow in Newfoundland, but are central to the sagas).
The grape problem may not be as bad as it looks, regarding Newfoundland, because the medieval warming was in full swing then. The Scandinavian explosion across Europe (Varangians, Vikings, Normans, the short-lived Viking kingdom in Sicily) was made possible by the warm weather. Medieval farmsteads (now abandoned) existed at higher latitudes and altitudes than are possible today.

That said, I've read that the Vatican preserves records of a "Bishop of Vinland"; supposedly Verrazano's expedition landed at what is now Newport Rhode Island and found the famous (or infamous) Newport Round Tower already standing, referring to it as a "Norman Tower". If so, it's an odd note to make if one is trying to stake out a claim to land.
The possibility that they might have introduced a stable population of horses that survived them is a lot more dubious. The environment and climate of northeast America at the time was either frozen tundra or heavily forested, neither of which are environs suitable for exploting horses. This is especially true at the beginning of the second millenium when the northern hemisphere was entering a miniature ice age...
The "Little Ice Age" didn't kick in until early in the 13th century. IMHO it is indeed what spelled the end of the Greenland colony, and probably led to the evacuation (or absorption, or extinction) of the Vinland colony. Also, with the Norse horse being from Iceland, I don't see a problem with the climate, particularly for a population further down what is now the eastern seaboard, and the temperature being warmer, not colder.

The nice aspect to this question is, there are living populations of all these horses, such that the nuclear DNA can be examined in an attempt to sort it out.
Maine Coon Cat (Straight Dope Mailbag)
Straight Dope Science Advisory Board ^ | 29-Jun-1999 | SDSTAFF Jill

Posted on 08/05/2004 11:19:14 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

One of the oldest breeds of cats in North America is the Maine Coon Cat, and some say 40% of the originals had extra toes. One article said it evolved as a "snowshoe foot" to help these cats walk in the snow. Cute story, but probably [expletive deleted] ...The breed closest to the Maine Coon Cat is the Norwegian Forest Cat which evolved in the same climate and lends credence to one theory that ancestors of the Coon Cat may have even come to the New World onboard Viking ships. I like that theory best.

(Excerpt) Read more at straightdope.com ...


43 posted on 11/30/2005 11:20:19 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: marsh2

Thanks!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1530960/posts?page=19#19


44 posted on 11/30/2005 11:24:30 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated my FR profile on Wednesday, November 2, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Yes, why them, who had no contact with the Spanish?

See my post #35 for speculations. Many tribes were expert horse thieves -- a constant complaint in early Western journals -- so horses got around pretty quickly. I suspect the Nez Perce got horses from the Blackfoot, Gros Ventre, Shoshone, Flatheads or other plains Indians.

45 posted on 11/30/2005 11:37:15 AM PST by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: Bernard Marx; SunkenCiv
The Nez Perce had a legend of receiving two stallions from Russia which they called Ghostwind Stallions. These stallions were introduced in to the existing breeding program that the Nez Perce have. Everyone discounted this as a pretty legend except the Indians.

Recent DNA tests on Appaloosas have revealed that the bloodline is majority Iberian horse (horses brought over by the Spanish) with DNA from Russian horses - the two stallions from Russia (I don't recall the name and can't look it up here at work) and some DNA from German and Belgium horses I believe (that would have have been circus horses brought over to the states in the 1800's)

Just a FWIW :)

46 posted on 11/30/2005 12:25:02 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: SunkenCiv

Horses were around when the first men reached this hemisphere along with a great deal of interesting megafauna. The Indians ate them until numbers were not sufficient to have a breeding population [and the mastadons and mammoths also suffered the same fate].


47 posted on 11/30/2005 12:36:09 PM PST by curmudgeonII (I've had amnesia once...or twice.)
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To: Duchess47
Very interesting info. A quick search revealed the following about Appaloosas:

"The Ni Mee Poo (Nez Perce) Tribe of the Pacific Northwest has been singled out and erroneously credited with developing the spotted horses found so frequently in the Northwest. The Ni Mee Poo themselves, however deny that they developed this breed, but they did love them and traded to acquire them whenever possible."

There's other interesting info about the Appaloosas and Ghostwinds HERE

Take it for what it's worth.

48 posted on 11/30/2005 1:00:33 PM PST by Bernard Marx (Don't make the mistake of interpreting my Civility as Servility)
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To: Bernard Marx

Cool site, thanks for the link.


49 posted on 11/30/2005 1:51:33 PM PST by Duchess47 ("One day I will leave this world and dream myself to Reality" Crazy Horse)
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To: Sam Gamgee; SunkenCiv
Image hosted by Photobucket.com

The Message of the Engraved Stones of Ica by Javier Cabrera Darquea

http://members.cox.net/icastones/exerpt_index.htm

I understand these artifacts are considered to be a hoax - but as there are more than 10,000 Ica stones, I'm keeping an open mind.

50 posted on 11/30/2005 4:05:15 PM PST by Fred Nerks (Aussie Diggers and US Marines Never Cut and Run; Cowards do!)
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