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Did The Ancient Greeks And Native Americans Swap Starcharts?
Live Science ^ | 6-12-2005 | Ker Than

Posted on 06/11/2006 6:18:49 PM PDT by blam

Did the Ancient Greeks and Native Americans Swap Starcharts?

Author Ker Than

I had a story on SPACE.com yesterday about a very cool discovery: a one-thousand year old petroglyph, or rock carving, that was found in Arizona and which might depict the supernova of 1006, or SN 1006. The carving is presumed to have been made an ancient group of Native Americans called the Hohokam.

The researcher who made the discovery argues that symbols of a scorpion and stars on the petroglyph match the relative positions of SN 1006 to the constellation Scorpius when the star first exploded.

Well, after I wrote the article, a lot of thoughtful readers wrote in with a very good question: Scorpius is an ancient Greek invention, so what are the chances that Native Americans living more than an ocean away looked up at the night sky and also saw in the stars the outline of a scorpion?

As one reader succinctly put it:

“There are three possible solutions to this: Either the Hohokam people had the same name for the constellation as the Greeks, there was significant contact between North America and Europe prior to this date, or the petroglyph is a fake and does not date to that period.”

So which is it? Is the petroglyph an example of a cosmic coincidence, a hoax or startling evidence that the ancient Greeks and Native Americans had contact with each other?

I passed the question along to John Barentine, the astronomer who made the discovery. Barentine’s reply below:

(Excerpt) Read more at livescience.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: americans; ancient; archaeoastronomy; callingartbell; did; godsgravesglyphs; greeks; megaliths; native; ophiuchus; sn1006; starcharts; supernova; swap
There were the same questions on FR.
1 posted on 06/11/2006 6:18:54 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Why couldn't the Indians have come to the Greeks?


2 posted on 06/11/2006 6:22:31 PM PDT by Dallas59
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To: SunkenCiv
GGG Ping.

1006 AD Supernova

3 posted on 06/11/2006 6:23:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam
“There are three possible solutions to this

Hey buddy, think again. Does it actually portray the Supernova? Academics can "argue" that it does all they want, doesn't necessarily make it so. I love arguments with built-in constraints that don't match the possibilities. Fine example of building a conclusion out of your fallacious premises.

4 posted on 06/11/2006 6:25:04 PM PDT by KellyAdmirer
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To: Dallas59

Oh geez, the mormons are going to be all over this one.


5 posted on 06/11/2006 6:25:44 PM PDT by elcid1970
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To: blam

I live in HoHoKus NJ im guessing that tribe lived right here?


6 posted on 06/11/2006 6:26:44 PM PDT by HHKrepublican_2
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To: blam
“There are three possible solutions to this: Either the Hohokam people had the same name for the constellation as the Greeks, there was significant contact between North America and Europe prior to this date, or the petroglyph is a fake and does not date to that period.”

There is another answer. A bridge culture and we have it in Asia.

Asia had contact with Europe and Asia also had contact with North America. People are so eager to find a Transatlantic connection that they ignore that the Transpacific one was never truly broken.

Scorpio is not a great stretch when it comes to that constellation. It does indeed look like a Scorpion. The interesting one is Ursa Major which is called that by Greeks and American Indians alike.

7 posted on 06/11/2006 6:36:57 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (The bottom 60% does 40% of the work, the top 40% does 60% of the work. Just who are the "workers"?)
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To: blam
"Scorpius is one of the very few constellations that actually resembles the creature it represents, especially with that unmistakable sting in the tail!"

The problem is the "scorpion" depicted in the petroglyph does not have that "unmistakable sting in the tail". It's more of a lobster shape -- all rounded. If anything, it looks more like a depiction of just another desert scorpion than a depiction of the constellation with its characteristic shape.

And then there's the problem with the fact that the petroglyph depicts TWO large scorpions and maybe one or more smaller ones depending on if you interpret the eight-pointed "star" as a star or as another smaller multi-legged scorpion.


8 posted on 06/11/2006 6:37:17 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: blam
As one reader succinctly put it:

“There are three possible solutions to this: Either the Hohokam people had the same name for the constellation as the Greeks, there was significant contact between North America and Europe prior to this date, or the petroglyph is a fake and does not date to that period.”

This is all very cute, but a fourth, more plausible possibility came to me immediately.....

Somone carved a likeness of something they saw in the sky....the supernova. The same artist, or another one, carved something you see quite often in AZ, a scorpion. The two are probably unrelated.

9 posted on 06/11/2006 6:40:22 PM PDT by edpc
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To: blam
Native Americans Recorded Supernova Explosion
10 posted on 06/11/2006 6:42:41 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

bump


11 posted on 06/11/2006 6:43:09 PM PDT by Finalapproach29er (Americans need to remember Osama's "strong horse" -"weak horse" analogy. Let's stop acting weak.)
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To: edpc
There's another possible explanation.

It's a shopping list:

A couple of nice kohlrabi

A new barette

Some of that blue butter for the bugs that live in Og's crotch

Preparation H

Some squid

12 posted on 06/11/2006 6:49:02 PM PDT by RightOnTheLeftCoast
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To: RightOnTheLeftCoast
Squid in AZ? It won't be fresh.

;-)

13 posted on 06/11/2006 6:53:25 PM PDT by edpc
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To: LucyT

Scorpius

14 posted on 06/11/2006 6:59:27 PM PDT by blam
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To: blam

"There were the same questions on FR."

Here's an even better question: When was the atlatl displaced by the bow and arrow. I don't have the resources to research this, but it appears smaller atlatl points were displaced by arrowheads around 600 AD. That would seem to date the European presence.


15 posted on 06/11/2006 7:06:16 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: blam
or the petroglyph is a fake and does not date to that period.”

Why would it have to be a fake? It could predate< that period.
If you draw squiggles on anything, randomly, many people seeing it days or a millenium later will he what he has trained himself to see. It could reperesnt (in someone's future mind) even something that has not yet happened. Fake is a word that comes to mind only if one steadfastedly insists that what one sees today is what the author intended, instead of pure randomness or coincidence.

16 posted on 06/11/2006 7:34:07 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Multiculturalism is the white flag of a dying country)
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To: FastCoyote

That's one of the things that doesn't get talked about much.

Decades ago I read something in Scientific American that seemed to indicate Native American bow technology came by way of Asia,


17 posted on 06/11/2006 7:40:30 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.

"bow technology came by way of Asia,"

But what is the date? Surely there are enough arrowheads and atlatl points to tell us when?


18 posted on 06/11/2006 7:46:35 PM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: blam
This is a good example of randomness.
Ask 1000 people to connect 18 of the dots in that rectangle (without showing any lines at all), and I doubt that a single one, unschooled in astronomy as a science would connect that particular set.
19 posted on 06/11/2006 7:47:07 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Multiculturalism is the white flag of a dying country)
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To: FreedomCalls
Could just be someone's doodles. I'm sure ancient people doodled. Not much going on back then and it must have been boring waiting for crops to grow, rain to fall, and game to migrate. Why should everything we find from ancient civilizations have profound significance concerning history or science?

20 posted on 06/11/2006 7:52:18 PM PDT by Kirkwood
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To: Dallas59

Because common assumption is that they couldn't or wouldn't, although, granted, the Greeks were known for seafaring, while Amerindians generally weren't. However, there does seem to be a tendency for some to consider the West as being the only peoples who were adventurous or who explored (if not outright that they were solely responsible for almost all technology).


21 posted on 06/11/2006 7:59:38 PM PDT by Jedi Master Pikachu (www.answersingenesis.org)
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To: blam
In Judaism, Christianity and Islam, the explanation (regarded as apocryphal in Western Christianity) is that knowledge of how to interpret times, signs and wonders in the skies was given to the people of Earth by the "watchers," who were supernatural/extraterrestrial/angelic beings, who ultimately came into opposition to God, due to their meddling and interbreeding with His creation. Land in the Antediluvian world was not separated by oceans; it was contiguous. The climate was quite different then, with rain being unknown and flora being nourished by mists that arose from the ground. So, in these religions, such knowledge should be present in all peoples, since it was taught prior to whatever caused the deluge and the breakup of what modern science has come to refer to as "Pangaea." The writings regarded as apocryphal by western Christianity that describe this are The Book Of Enoch (I, which has been confirmed as being authentic, having been found at Qumran, and not II, which is believed to have been written in the Middle Ages), The Book Of Jubilees and The Book Of Jasher.
22 posted on 06/11/2006 8:09:56 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: RegulatorCountry

Jasher and Jubilees are referred to by quoting from them in the Christian cannon.
They were considered cannon before politics took them out.


23 posted on 06/11/2006 8:17:48 PM PDT by Spirited (`)
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To: Kirkwood
Has anyone seen an overlay showing how the marks on this rock "coincide" with the real sky and the location of the suoernova?
Without any leftover elements?
24 posted on 06/11/2006 8:25:50 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Multiculturalism is the white flag of a dying country)
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To: Kirkwood

Agree, Lots of those "ritual hunting magic" scenes were quite likely big brother impressing little brother with his hunting prowess or mom showing the kids where dinner came from.


25 posted on 06/11/2006 8:29:38 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: blam

I've looked at some of theother signs on the rock and they are also suggestive of contact. To the right of the nova is a squiggle, followed by a curved line followed by a shape.

Try this sequence for size:
scorpius, nova, ophiuchus (snake symbol), saggitarius (bow symbol), capricorn (ram's head)

Breaks down on the extreme right...can't get that rake shape to look like a water bearer.


26 posted on 06/11/2006 8:35:18 PM PDT by From many - one.
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To: RegulatorCountry

Any Mormon will smile and tell you about an ancient record that recounts the migration of a small colony of Jews from Jerusalem in 600 B.C. who came to the Americas. We take it as a matter of faith, that the Book of Mormon is a true record. It is always interesting to see the odd "coincidences" that appear as archaeologists discover such odd items as clay pan pipes tuned to the musical scales of the Mediterranean area or something like this supernova drawing. Someday, historians will recognize the connections between this colony of Israelites, the peoples of the ancient Americas, and the inhabitants of the Pacific Islands.


27 posted on 06/11/2006 8:47:54 PM PDT by gregwest
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To: Kirkwood

Why not even consider that the Ancient tribes 5yr old kids were writing on the walls?


28 posted on 06/11/2006 11:23:42 PM PDT by Global2010 (Life takes allot of Prayer and Grit)
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To: blam

Excuse me but scorpions are all over the world and they all look pretty much alike. The constellation of Scorpio is the one constellation that actually looks like its name. Only people like ancient Eskimos etc. would not know what a scorpion looked like as there are no ice scorpions that we know of.


29 posted on 06/12/2006 12:33:41 AM PDT by fish hawk
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To: fish hawk

Tell you what.

Take some bright college students in a desert area, show them a picture of that part of the night sky (not just the constellation, about 90 degrees worth) and ask them what animal shapes they see, if any.

If I remember, I may try it today at work.


30 posted on 06/12/2006 6:18:58 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; ...
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
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31 posted on 06/12/2006 8:33:42 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (All Moslems everywhere advocate murder, including mass murder, and they do it all the time.)
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To: Kirkwood

I see a record of the fabulous grudge match of the Scorpion (ctr. left) and the Tarantula ( ctr. low note the 8 legs) which was refereed by the Bull (ctr. rt.).

The smaller 8 legged figure just above the Bull and the Tarantula was the ring girl.

The stick figure to the rt. of the Bull indicates that they are in round two. Note the open triangle representing the priceless World Bug Trophy.

Anyone who has done the sacred Peyote knows this. Just ask Carlos Castenada, he saw it all.

But, then again, I see strange things in ink blots test. But hey, they're not my pictures.

32 posted on 06/12/2006 9:18:37 AM PDT by Covenantor
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To: Dallas59

Why couldn't the Indians have come to the Greeks?
______________________________________________________

Because Greeks were prodigiously literate people...nothing written ever found to point to any contact.


33 posted on 06/12/2006 10:01:59 AM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: Dallas59

I remember reading somewhere that American Indian genes have been found in Greeks.


34 posted on 06/12/2006 12:20:23 PM PDT by Ptarmigan (Ptarmigans will rise again!)
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To: Dallas59

I agree, "Why didn't the Indians come to the Greeks?" I must question also, if the Bering Strait bridged from Asia to North America, wouldn't it also stretch from North America to Asia too?


35 posted on 08/23/2006 8:08:55 PM PDT by will_scalp_you_sioux (Scalps upon will)
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To: Global2010

In response to, "Why not even consider that the Ancient tribes 5yr old kids were writing on the walls?" First of all, did you mean, "Why not even consider that it could have been that ancient tribes had 5 year old kids writing on the walls?"

Funny how I'm Native but speak better English.

Anyway... it is amazing how fast non-Indian people dismiss anything that Native people knew before Europeans. My grandmother, who was a Sioux woman, when she heard of new scientific findings would often say, "We already knew that." There is so much education that most of you on this post have obviously missed out on... pity and shame on the adult for not "ever even" bothering to find out.


36 posted on 08/23/2006 8:15:00 PM PDT by will_scalp_you_sioux (Scalps upon will)
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To: will_scalp_you_sioux

We already knew that.


37 posted on 08/23/2006 8:23:26 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: will_scalp_you_sioux

Yeah My Samar Filipino Mom said the same thing, even to the extreme that we never got to see a Dr. I had to go on the bus to get care...funny now she is 87 she takes all the White Mans pills to stay healthy and I refuse them.
Funny.

So my English writing is poor.
Well Partner ya got me there.
Sorry it does not intend to get better, either.


38 posted on 08/23/2006 9:59:24 PM PDT by Global2010 (Show me da paw Ya'll)
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39 posted on 02/08/2010 12:30:22 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Happy New Year! Freedom is Priceless.)
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To: From many - one.


Decades ago I read something in Scientific American that seemed to indicate Native American bow technology came by way of Asia,”

Did it say anything about where Obama bow technology came from?”


40 posted on 02/08/2010 12:32:30 PM PST by No Truce With Kings (The opinions expressed are mine! Mine! MINE! All Mine!)
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