Posted on 05/10/2010 12:52:32 PM PDT by NYer
Get ready for conspiracy season, opening day is almost here.
Prepare thyself for an onslaught of information, speculation, and defamation over the next few weeks as the Pope prepares to visit Fatima this month.
Speculation about the contents of the famous third secret of Fatima had become such a cottage industry among among some Catholics that they were determined not to let a little thing like the secret being revealed in the year 2000 get in their way. If you have a successful business model, you stick with it I suppose.
It is fair to say that the Pope’s visit to Fatima will, of course, make the famous secret once again a hot topic as it is intensely interesting. However, Antonio Socci’s book “The Fourth Secret” being recently translated into English will only add fuel to the fire.
Socci alleges that there were two third secrets of Fatima. One, the released description of the vision of the Bishop in white and another that followed after the phrase “In Portugal the dogma of the Faith will always be preserved etc.”
I am obviously in the camp that believes the Pope and Sr. Lucia when they said that all was released. With that said, I think some observers have raised reasonable questions about some apparent discrepancies surrounding previous statements about the secret.
But the Vatican is in a catch-22 here. In order to quiet the conspiracy theorists, they could address some of the alleged discrepancies and put them to rest once and for all. But, and this is a big but, they simply cannot do that. To even address the questions would turn the conspiracy cottage industry into a huge growth sector overnight.
Every word or clarification issued would be dissected and dissected again opening up even more inconsistencies and discrepancies resulting in the world’s first perpetual motion conspiracy machine. So the Vatican continues to do what it must, it stays silent.
So understanding all this, a reasonable man is left to decide. Did the Pope lie? Did Sr. Lucia lie?
You know where I stand. What say you?
EWTN will be providing live coverage of Pope Benedict XVI’s visit to Fatima beginning on May 11.
I don’t think the Pope lied or Sister Lucia..but I don’t think we got it all.
Like it, or not, the Church wants everyone of us to be about the Lord’s business right up to the day he calls us home. I don’t need private revelations to keep on keeping on.
What I don’t get is that in the old testament, there are prohibitions about sooth sayers and people that try to predict the future. And then it goes on for books about prophets.
Maybe I just don’t get the difference between a prophet and a fortune teller (no intent to make light of one, or make fun of the other).
Aren’t we supposed to live every day as if it is our last? So why should I care what the Sister says, or what the Pope says. (And I have to type that last part carefully or my catholic wife will get angry with me!)
But the Vatican is in a catch-22 here. In order to quiet the conspiracy theorists, they could address some of the alleged discrepancies and put them to rest once and for all. But, and this is a big but, they simply cannot do that. To even address the questions would turn the conspiracy cottage industry into a huge growth sector overnight.
Every word or clarification issued would be dissected and dissected again opening up even more inconsistencies and discrepancies resulting in the world’s first perpetual motion conspiracy machine. So the Vatican continues to do what it must, it stays silent.
On an highly emotional spiritual level there has been a great common-ground meeting place between Rome and Mecca in the town of Fatima in Portugal. To quote a Catholic news organization, "Our Lady of Fatima is really Fatima, daughter of the Prophet Mohammed." On October 23, 1995, Iranian television began running stories that the apparitions in Fatima, Portugal in 1917 were religious phenomena of Muslim origin........According to Iranian Television, the woman who appeared to the three shepherd children in 1917 was not the Virgin Mary, mother of Jesus, but Fatima, the daughter of the prophet Mohammed, founder of Islam. Her message was reported to be "I am Fatima, daughter of the Prophet of Islam." This television report has helped launch the growing waves of Muslim pilgrims who have been visiting this Christian site in Portugal in recent years.
Catholics, on the other hand, say that the Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to the three shepherd children. She told them to pray, especially encouraging the prayer of the Rosary. Lucía, the only surviving recipient of the vision, was entrusted with three "secrets," of which the third has never been made public. She recently assured that the third secret was never intended for general proclamation. Pope John Paul II has had a strong devotion to Our Lady of Fatima, especially since the failed assassination attempt of Ali Agca, which occurred precisely on May 13, 1991, the anniversary of the first vision at Fatima (May 13, 1917).
-- From the thread The Papacy and Islam
This brings us to our second point: namely, why the Blessed Mother, in the 20th century should have revealed herself in the significant little village of Fatima, so that to all future generations she would be known as "Our Lady of Fatima." Since nothing ever happens out of Heaven except with a finesse of all details, I believe that the Blessed Virgin chose to be known as "Our Lady of Fatima" as a pledge and a sign of hope to the Moslem people, and as an assurance that they, who show her so much respect, will one day accept her divine Son too.On the Lady of Fatima:Evidence to support these views is found in the historical fact that the Moslems occupied Portugal for centuries. At the time when they were finally driven out, the last Moslem chief had a beautiful daughter by the name of Fatima. A Catholic boy fell in love with her, and for him she not only stayed behind when the Moslems left, but even embraced the Faith. The young husband was so much in love with her that he changed the name of the town where he lived to Fatima. Thus, the very place where our Lady appeared in 1917 bears a historical connection to Fatima, the daughter of Mohammed.
-- Archbishop Fulton Sheen, in the book The World's First Love
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
We shouldn’t.
We should live our lives as if Our Lord will be back tomorrow.
These times are frightening...I was reading on another thread how senior citizens are forbidden to pray before meals...this is out of hand. They pick off, a cross here, or ten commandments here, or you can’t pray here. Really all Our Lady wants us to do through these secrets is to pray and do penance. Maybe us Catholics here can form a prayer group and at a certain hour of the day or night, we all say our rosaries in our home. Even though we are not together we are in heart. Maybe some are already doing this, I don’t know?
I believe that the best way for God to send a message to people on earth was to have Mary tell it to a little girl!!
and make it in 3 parts!
and keep one of them secret because it would be so bad if people knew that Russia was not “consecrated to the sacred heart of mary” or ...something
People believe the silliest things..(seriously, they do! look at the crapola Mooselimbs believe)
Muslims have always had a great devotion to Mary. In my own parish, we have Muslims that come to our grotto because of the statue of Mary there. Some have converted. We have many Chaldeans in our area. The Muslims feel comfortable with us.
The Chaldeans I know think that the only way to turn the hearts of the Muslims is through Miriam (Mary). They lived it, some all their lives.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing.
Ping!
I didn't see too much about that in your links.
Fatima Consecration Chronology
The Story of Fatima
The Consecration of Russia
The Meaning of the Consecration of Russia
The Message of Fatima
The last poster who wanted to argue with me about Fatima inferred that the "solution" was about stopping onanism.
Predict the future .... for a living. IOW, they charge money for their services.
The messages at Fatima were delivered by the Blessed Mother to 3 children. You can read the history of these events that were witnessed by thousands and the messages given, at this link.
The Church and non-Christians
839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325 The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 and when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330
842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.334
Why do folks pay big money and fly to an apparition [of course, it is not approved like Fatima surely is], when all they have to do is drive to a nearby Mass, where the Miracle of Christ awaits them every day?And while I always listen to whatever the Pope has to say and participate in the Sacraments, I agree with you, "Live every day as if it is our last ..." -- Great advice!!
Wow, Alex’s wild!
The loonies will rant and rave, as they always do. NOTHING one does can prevent it. Best bet is largely to ignore them. IMO.
These are not soothsayers; visions are a very ancient tradition in the Church, including in the Old Testament.
However, in the Church, approval of a vision does not mean that one has to believe it, simply that one can believe it without harm. Benedict XVI made a very good statement (not quoted here) saying that visions are not hard and fast predictions, but warnings. Unless one responds to them and changes, these things will happen; but God responds to prayer and to penance and change, and the final result may be different (which we will not know until after death).
That was the Old Testament view, too.
A prophet is commanded by God ... and in fact several of the OT Prophets ran away from Him.
A fortune teller tries to force God’s hand, or goes off consulting with demons.
The Prophet acknowledges that God is in charge. He knows that God is God, and he is not.
The fortune teller wants to be in charge. He wants to be God.
Likely amongst other things, I'd venture to say.
The Blessed Virgin made mention of "sins of the flesh" and stated that many souls went to hell because of them. She also stated that wars are a punishment for sin. So it's reasonable to infer that lack of chastity has consequences beyond our own persons. Sodom and Gomorrah found that out.
Other apparitions have also mentioned the seriousness of sins against the sixth commandment which deals with the wider issue of sexual continence.
You keep posting this over and over, as though repetition conferred sanity.
Do you believe what Iranian television has to say about Catholics? Do you believe what Iranian television has to say about Jews? Do you believe them on any topic?
Salvation is our girl. Ping
For those interested in Marian apparitions;
http://www.zeitun-eg.org/stmaridx.htm
http://www.garabandal.us/home.html
>>Do you believe them on any topic? <<
That’s what I thought.
Hey, they believe Earthquakes are caused by promiscuous women too.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2909956/earthquakes_caused_by_loose_woman_and.html?cat=9
Should we believe that?
LOL Cute about your dogs...they know though I think :)
Do you think that I would believe it? More importantly, do you believe that Iranian television said it?
See post 23
My Grandfather could put down a bowl of dog food and if he pointed at it and told the dog that it was Friday, the dog wouldn’t eat it.
It helped that the pup got sweets that day, but he always said the dog was Catholic at Heart.
Wow..I believe it! :)
My opinions about what you believe are pretty worthless, since I can't get inside your mind. You, however, are supposed to be inside your own mind, but you answer a question about what you believe with another question, instead of an answer.
More importantly, do you believe that Iranian television said it?
Yeah, actually I do. However, I also think they (Iranian TV and the people who run it) are nuttier than a fruitcake. Crazy people say lots of strange stuff.
When I feed the line “On an highly emotional spiritual level there has been a great common-ground meeting place between Rome and Mecca in the town of Fatima in” to Bing, these are the first two sites I come up with....
http://www.tidenstecken.se/kkpapacy.htm
And this...
http://www.the-highway.com/Islam_Bennett.html
(an original of the first)
Then posts by Alex Murphy on FR. After that, not a single reference.
Google is the same with a few more links, none to Iranian tv
I don’t see any actual reference to Iranian tv. I see a broken link to zenit which could have said anything. Got a real link Alex?
A Prophet is a man who is used by God to speak to His people. He simply speaks the Word of God.
A Priest speaks to God for the people.
Both were formal positions within the nation of Israel in OT times. The King of Israel, as a client nation of God, could not be placed in office unless chosen by God. The Prophet was the formal position through which the King was revealed to the people of Israel from God.
The obvious question would arise, how do we tell a true Prophet from a false prophet? A number of solutions were provided by God. One of which was to test the Prophet, since God is omniscient and always true, any Prophecy given by the Prophet could be tested against the Prophecies of Moses. If they conflicted, one could easily conclude the new prophecy was a fabrication from somebody other than God.
After the completion of the canon of Scripture, there are doctrinal arguments which assert the gift of Prophecy in the Church Age has ceased. (off top of my head they relate to some passages in Galatians and Ephesians, wherein Paul swears that by the Scripture itself, it was sufficient for every good work for every believer.) Run a google search for topics such as cessation of prophecy or cessationism.
Meanwhile in the Church Age, all believers receive a spiritual gift at the moment of salvation, not always the same gifts for different believers. Some might have a spiritual gift of pastor-teacher and other the gift of interpretation of tongues, others might have other spiritual gifts.
When faced with a spiritual message, a dilemma would occur for the Prophet, in that if he failed to deliver the message, the blood of a warning would fall on his head if he failed to warn the people of a calamity. Conversely, if the prophecy failed to occur, then he was guilty of false prophecy, which carried the same penalty as adultery, namely stoning to death. The work of the Holy Spirit glorifies the Son.
Thanks for a decent answer...
It would have been easy to kick me down the road, so to speak. I appreciate you all taking to time to give me some things to work on.
Excellent suggestions, mlizzy! For the cubicle bound, like myself, I use the time driving to work to pray the rosary - for those undergoing surgery, for an increase in vocations, for my pastor and our soon to be pastor and the others in our eparchy who are being transferred right now - and that gets me to the office. During the day, I pray while walking the halls and during my lunchtime walk - for women planning an abortion that they will turn around and go home and save the lives of their children, for the victims of abortion, for the dying who are alone with no one to pray for them ... and the list goes on and on. Each week our parish features the name of a parish family and asks that we pray for them and their intentions. EVERY DAY, I offer up a decade of the rosary for the souls in purgatory and then there are my permanent lists - my family and friends (living and deceased), for those who have asked for my prayers and those unsolicited which I have added as well. BTW - I have asked my guardian angel to keep track of these names because the lists have grown so large that I can no longer remember all of them :-)
As for a specific time of day, I again go along with mlizzy. Our Lord asked through St. Faustina that the 3 o'clock hour be set aside to pray the Divine Mercy chaplet. Why not tack on the rosary at 3:30pm!
3:30 is a good time for me. Can you gather all the catholics here you know and see if they can also join in at that time too? Maybe start a new thread?
Freeper Salvation does prayer threads. I have pinged her.
Ok..good.
Yee ha! LOL
Amen!!! I suspect the Boss is going to to be seriously p-O'd as we didn't look out for the "least amongst you".
Try feeding said link into the Wayback Machine Internet Archive, and see what you get. Better yet, I'm feeling charitable and have done your homework for you. The results show 31 matches dating from September 1999 through October 2006. Pick any one, and click on it. Then match the archived webpage to this post and this post of mine, made back on May 10/11th, 2007 - three years ago to the day.
For my next trick, if you'd like, I can post a survey of all the Catholic FReepers who have accused me of lying about the quote/URL. If you'd like, I can put your name at the top.
>>If you’d like, I can put your name at the top.<<
Why would you do that? I put the facts of the search up and asked for a live link.
Where exactly did I accuse you of lying?
Oh, and btw, I’ve learned here in FR, that if you don’t want people to question your quotes, put a link (make sure it works) the first time.
If someone can click without having to ask for a link, there is no doubt.
I’ve seen it happen here often. People doubt. It’s part of nature.
Remind me to chastise the people at ZENIT for disobeying a direct order, by removing a webpage that existed from 1998 until May 2007. Of course, it's all my fault that it's now gone at ZENIT. The buck stops here. It's a good thing that I had the foresight to set up that nice Wayback project back in 1996.
>>Remind me to chastise the people at ZENIT <<
Well, actually, it’s your responsibility to give a live link. That’s YOUR homework, not anyone else’s.
It was very nice of you to link the Wayback site. It gave your quote some credibility. However if you had checked that
1. you gave a reference for that quote
2. the link worked
you wouldn’t have had to do that extra work.
Sheesh - remind me to increase the funding on my time machine project(s). It's nice to know it's my responsibility to verify if the valid links I'm placing in my posts today will continue to work three years in the future - so that I'll know whether to place them in my posts today.
It was very nice of you to link the Wayback site. It gave your quote some credibility.
It was nice of you to notice. It gives your complaint some credibility.
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