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Where Did The Etruscans Come From?
Etruscology website ^ | June 2002 | Dieter H. Steinbauer

Posted on 08/06/2005 9:08:13 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

Nevertheless, after more than a century of research, the linguistic relationship between Lemnian and Etruscan -- despite the scanty material -- is nowadays established to a large extent as an undeniable fact. The phonemic systems can not be set to coincide completely, yet it is significant that apart from the already mentioned four vowel system parallels exist in the consonant inventory, too. There are two varieties of s (here written s and sh) and no indications of the voiced plosives b, d, g, while next to each other are to be found in both languages t and th (no aspirate sound like the Greek one, but rather pronounced like ty). Evident conformities exist in the vocabulary between Etruscan (ET, Ta 1.169:) avils machs shealchlsc (literally: "at (=-s) years at four and (=-c) at sixty"), and Lemnian mav shialchveis avis (literally: "four at (=-s) sixty at years"). The common translation, "at 64 years", is of course depending on the values assigned to the Etruscan numerals. In view of the extremely meagre vocabulary of the Lemnian language possible interpretations must rely almost completely on so far decoded Etruscan expressions. Yet, the interpretation of mav and mach is based additionally on the fact that in the (Indo-European) Anatolian language Luvian the word "four" is called maua.

(Excerpt) Read more at etruskisch.de ...


TOPICS: History; Science; Travel
KEYWORDS: epigraphyandlanguage; etruria; etruscan; etruscans; godsgravesglyphs; history; lemnian; lemnos; trojanwar
Many more sites about this stele, although I thought there was a topic on FR.

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1 posted on 08/06/2005 9:08:13 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
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2 posted on 08/06/2005 9:09:09 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Where is Lemnia?


3 posted on 08/06/2005 9:12:26 PM PDT by spyone
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Ancient Mediterranean Lingual 'Incongruity'
Cyclone Covey
A Pelasgian stele on Lemnos proves anomalous only as a survival of Pelasgian writing, not as Etruscan-related in the Aegean before Classical Greek eradication of the Luvian-speaking remnant of Mycenaean culture. Etruscan tombs in Italy retained Mycenaean-style frescoes. Romans, whom urbane Etruscans largely civilized while ruling, retained much of Mycenaean-Etruscan culture, including sarcophagi and other funerary practices, purple-bordering of magistrates, horsemanship, political organization, soothsaying, lanterns, cisterns, taverns, and legends of a migration via Carthage after the fall of Troy.

4 posted on 08/06/2005 9:13:00 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I'm guessing either Tuscany or New Jersey.


5 posted on 08/06/2005 9:15:09 PM PDT by garyhope (Islamofascism wants the death of Western civilization. Simple as that.)
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The Lemnos Stele
by Ray Brown
December 2004
It will be seen that the text contains no voiced plosives, but it does show a sries of unaspirated voiceless plosives and of aspirated voiceless plosives which is exactly what we find in Etruscan. Furthermore, only four vowels are attested: a, e, i and o. Etruscan also has only four vowels: a, e, i and u. If the Lemnian language is related to Etruscan, then clearly Lemnian o will correspond to Etruscan u. We do not know what sound z denoted in either language.

6 posted on 08/06/2005 9:16:37 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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Etruscan Texts: Lemnian Stele
by unknown
shivai sialchveish avish marashm av

holaieshi naphoth shlashi vanacasial sheronai morinai <->c

evistho sheronaith aker tavarshio

shivai avish sialchvish marash <->m avish aomai

holaiesh phokiasiale

sheronaith evistho toveronarom haralio

shivai epteshio arai tish thoke

7 posted on 08/06/2005 9:24:06 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: garyhope

Will you still need me? Will you still feed me, when I'm 64?


8 posted on 08/06/2005 9:24:33 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: spyone

I used to know where it is, but I got amlemnia.

[rimshot!]

It refers to the isle of Lemnos.


9 posted on 08/06/2005 9:25:30 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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Obligatory tinfoil hat item:
The Etruscan Cryptolect: A New Theory On The Origins And Language Of The Etruscans
by H.T. Bryer
Using the Etruscan vocabularies contained in Massimo Pallottino's The Etruscans 1975, and Larissa Bonfante's Etruscan, 1990, as a basis for reliable comparison I will demonstrate the possibility that Etruscan is a cryptolect which was ingeniously devised by the Etruscan priestly and ruling castes whose primary language and culture was decidedly Italic. Like their cousins the Celtic Druids (who possessed a cryptic speech called Ogham) the Etruscan Haruspices framed their secret language for both religious and secular reasons.

10 posted on 08/06/2005 9:31:07 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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Indo-European Chronology
Despite many bright statements which can be found on the Web nowadays, the Etruscan problem remains with us, and their origin and their language classification are still unknown. If we summarize all that has been said and found about Etruscans, we can see that the majority of discoveries confirm ancient theories of their Asiatic homeland. Several historical facts, archaeological relics, words from Egyptian, Greek and Italic sources, some similarities between Etruscan and Hurrian languages, and finally the problem of the Lemnos Stele - all these are in favour of Asia Minor as the original land of Etruscans.

They came to Italy and occupied northern and partly central districts of the peninsula. Soon, due to overseas trading and contacts with higher civilizations of Phoenicians, Greeks and Egyptians, Etruscans acquired writing, invented their own alphabet and brought up their original culture, so unlike other cultures of that time Europe.

11 posted on 08/06/2005 9:31:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: garyhope

"finiculee finiculah finiculee finiculah..."


12 posted on 08/06/2005 9:33:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: SunkenCiv
Paris, after the fall of Troy, took the remaining population back to their homeland, Etruscia...

The Trojans were Etruscans. The Etruscans were most likely Semites. imo...
13 posted on 08/06/2005 9:40:06 PM PDT by Prost1 (New AG, Berger is still free, copped a plea! I still get my news from FR!)
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To: SunkenCiv
Where Did The Etruscans Come From?

Etruscany.

Next question.

< |:)~

14 posted on 08/06/2005 10:05:48 PM PDT by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: SunkenCiv
If I recall correctly, Etruscans also claim the earliest use of conrcrete/cement construction in Italy..

Not sure if it was used earlier than that, but it was the Etruscans that introduced it to Roman architecture..

15 posted on 08/06/2005 11:58:53 PM PDT by Drammach (Freedom; not just a job, it's an adventure..)
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To: spyone

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/cia03/greece_sm03.gif


16 posted on 08/07/2005 1:03:40 AM PDT by neb52
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To: SunkenCiv
Have you read "The Etruscan" by Werner Keller(1974). He theorized they were remnants of Lydia. I guess he wasn't to far off?
17 posted on 08/07/2005 1:05:12 AM PDT by neb52
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To: SunkenCiv
Interesting. There are many small villages in southeastern Italy whose dialects retain certain Etruscan words and expressions. In the Province of Molise, for example, the capitol is Campobasso. The locals refer to it as 'Campo-ash' (sp?).

Yet another example.

In Italian, young boy = ragazzo. In dialect - 'oochitla' (sp?)
Young girl = ragazza. In dialect - 'achitla' (sp?)
Upstairs = sopra. In dialect - 'ingup' (sp?)
Downstairs = sotto. In dialect - 'bal' (sp?)

18 posted on 08/07/2005 3:40:38 AM PDT by NYer ("Each person is meant to exist. Each person is God's own idea." - Pope Benedict XVI)
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To: SunkenCiv; blam

But did the Etruscans have red hair?


19 posted on 08/07/2005 5:04:16 AM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: Squantos

".....unaspirated voiceless plosives and of aspirated voiceless plosives....."

Hey! They must be talking about you...'splosions an' all.

Even though it must be fun when your widgets do splode at work, I bet you voicelessly aspirate from time to time...I mean...as voicelessly as can be 'spected.


20 posted on 08/07/2005 7:22:40 AM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: SunkenCiv

The second post about the Etruscans was much more informative and interesting to me than a explication of parts of speech such as glottal stops which are understandable only by linguistic professors.


21 posted on 08/07/2005 7:45:43 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: SunkenCiv

That looks very interesting, but unfortunately it's all Greek to me...


22 posted on 08/07/2005 9:16:57 AM PDT by mikrofon (Ancient Proverb: Never Trust an Etruscan ;)
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To: Prost1

That is radical. Has anyone else besides you ever put forth that hypothesis?


23 posted on 08/07/2005 10:23:40 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and open the Land Office)
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To: martin_fierro

"Sippin' away again, in Etruscanitta-ville..."


24 posted on 08/07/2005 10:37:41 AM PDT by FreedomFarmer (Socialism is not an ideology, it is a disease. Eliminate the vectors.)
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To: SunkenCiv

It refers to the isle of Lemnos.

Lipstick Lemnians are hot!


25 posted on 08/07/2005 10:43:25 AM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: RightWhale

I don't think so, but then again I have quirkish thinking about the Phoenicians as well.


26 posted on 08/07/2005 11:49:33 AM PDT by Prost1 (New AG, Berger is still free, copped a plea! I still get my news from FR!)
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To: Prost1

Livy pretty much had the Etruscans populating the whole of Italy when the future Romans arrived and linked up with the Latins. Of course, the past was kind of murky even by that time. The future Romans supposedly were some survivors of the Trojan fiasco.


27 posted on 08/07/2005 11:58:26 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and open the Land Office)
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To: Prost1
"The Trojans were Etruscans. The Etruscans were most likely Semites. imo..."

Well, then Etruscans must be from Israel.

28 posted on 08/07/2005 12:01:33 PM PDT by Feiny (Practice random and senseless acts.)
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To: feinswinesuksass

"Well, then Etruscans must be from Israel."

False logic. Semites include the Lebanon, Syria and Norther Iraq.

The history of Israel is of the group that went to Egypt and returned to Israel. King David ruled over Israel and also Lebanon, the home of the Phoenicians. The Phoenicans colonized the Mediterrean. The most notable cities include Marseille and Carthage, but Sicily, Southern Spain, Algeria, Morroco, and the Atlantic Coastline of Africa are all attested to.


29 posted on 08/07/2005 12:17:19 PM PDT by Prost1 (New AG, Berger is still free, copped a plea! I still get my news from FR!)
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To: Prost1
Like Pamela Andersons breasts, my logic is always false.
For those who are humor challenged, the Israel comment was a joke.
30 posted on 08/07/2005 12:22:35 PM PDT by Feiny (Practice random and senseless acts.)
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To: feinswinesuksass

The joke was had to discern. :-)


31 posted on 08/07/2005 2:27:17 PM PDT by Prost1 (New AG, Berger is still free, copped a plea! I still get my news from FR!)
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To: Prost1

Yes, my humor is either subtle or like an atom bomb.


32 posted on 08/07/2005 5:21:19 PM PDT by Feiny (Practice random and senseless acts.)
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To: Drammach; FreedomFarmer; feinswinesuksass; martin_fierro; mikrofon; NYer; neb52; PoorMuttly; ...
Many, many thanks to all. This is without doubt the most replies ever sent in a topic I started. I guess there's a real need for Etruscan coverage, eh?
Prost1: The Trojans were Etruscans. The Etruscans were most likely Semites. imo...
RightWhale: That is radical. Has anyone else besides you ever put forth that hypothesis?
feinswinesuksass: Well, then Etruscans must be from Israel.
Cyclone Covey, if memory serves, claims that Linear A is Semitic. Barry Fell's view was that Linear A belongs in the Anatolian group of tongues, and showed a number of correspondences. My view is that Fell is correct, Covey isn't, and that the Etruscans were one part of a larger ethnic group which once used Linear A on Crete (and elsewhere), was seafaring, colonized around the Mediterranean prior to and during the Phoenician diaspora, and some other stuff.

Regarding feinswinesuksass' joke, it's delicious in context, because British Israelism (and variants) is related to something that happened during (if memory serves) the British Empire. A poetic work was written (possibly commissioned by the gov't) in which a Trojan named Brutus, like his countryman Aeneas, sailed away after the Fall of Troy, searching for a new home, and with his compatriots, found it in Britain.
martin_fierro: Etruscany.
You've cracked it! :')
Drammach: If I recall correctly, Etruscans also claim the earliest use of conrcrete/cement construction in Italy. Not sure if it was used earlier than that, but it was the Etruscans that introduced it to Roman architecture.
That could very well be, I'll see what I can find about it. They definitely taught the Romans a number of quintessentially Roman things, such as roadbuilding, tunnelling, and other civil engineering stuff, and of course, the very altered and modified "games".
neb52: Have you read "The Etruscan" by Werner Keller(1974). He theorized they were remnants of Lydia. I guess he wasn't to far off?
Uh-oh. I'm not sure that I don't have that book around here. This place will someday have a landslide of junk and bury me alive. Of course, apropos to your reply, I'll probably find the Werner book while waiting to be found. The view that the Etruscans came from the Aegean was current (heh) in classical times, and led to things like the Aeneid. Schliemann was correct about "prehistoric" pottery and such during his excavation of Hissarlik, and also figured that there must have been a Lydian level of occupation, which he felt free to ignore (and dig straight through). I'm not of the school that thinks Schliemann was Eichmann though.
NYer: Interesting. There are many small villages in southeastern Italy whose dialects retain certain Etruscan words and expressions. In the Province of Molise, for example, the capitol is Campobasso. The locals refer to it as 'Campo-ash' (sp?).

Yet another example.

In Italian, young boy = ragazzo. In dialect - 'oochitla' (sp?)
Young girl = ragazza. In dialect - 'achitla' (sp?)
Upstairs = sopra. In dialect - 'ingup' (sp?)
Downstairs = sotto. In dialect - 'bal' (sp?)
I've got nothing to add, just felt it bore repeating. Fell's work on Etruscan found (if one doesn't reject Fell out of hand) that the Petrarchian Sonnet actually was already a traditional form in classical times, in Etruria.
ValerieUSA: But did the Etruscans have red hair?
I can dream, can't I? Ooh, baby.
PoorMuttly: ".....unaspirated voiceless plosives and of aspirated voiceless plosives....."
Reminds me, I've not been to Taco Bell in years.
wildbill: "The second post about the Etruscans was much more informative and interesting to me than a explication of parts of speech such as glottal stops which are understandable only by linguistic professors."
Thanks, glad you liked it.
mikrofon: That looks very interesting, but unfortunately it's all Greek to me...
That reminds me, I speak every language but Greek, and...
FreedomFarmer: "Sippin' away again, in Etruscanitta-ville..."
[sigh] Jimmy should start a restaurant, maybe buffet-style.
tet68: Lipstick Lemnians are hot!
I Sappho so...
RightWhale: Livy pretty much had the Etruscans populating the whole of Italy when the future Romans arrived and linked up with the Latins. Of course, the past was kind of murky even by that time. The future Romans supposedly were some survivors of the Trojan fiasco.
Fascinating I think that the Romans wanted an origin story that was both borrowed from their notorious rivals and involved descent from people defeated by the Greeks. Seems like they had a masochistic streak in their collective psyche.

33 posted on 08/07/2005 10:04:23 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: Drammach

Etruscan Engineering and Agricultural Achievements: The Ancient City of Spina
The Mysterious Etruscans | Last modified on Tue, 17-Aug-2004 15:36:27 GMT | editors
Posted on 08/17/2004 9:05:30 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1193229/posts

The Etruscans: Reopening the Case of the Mute Civilization
New York Times | May 27, 2001 | Alan Riding
Posted on 08/04/2004 11:39:04 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1185005/posts


34 posted on 08/07/2005 10:12:53 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: jocon307

Yes, of course dear. I'm actually a pretty decent cook.


35 posted on 08/07/2005 11:08:17 PM PDT by garyhope (Islamofascism wants the death of Western civilization. Simple as that.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Rasenna Head
Bar & Grill

*genuine Dorian Heads in the Men's Room.

36 posted on 08/08/2005 6:48:17 AM PDT by FreedomFarmer (Socialism is not an ideology, it is a disease. Eliminate the vectors.)
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To: FreedomFarmer

When Rod Stewart retires, he plans to open a diner in Toronto, called the "Every Picture Tells A Story Donut Shop."

[ducks, runs]


37 posted on 08/08/2005 12:19:11 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Tuesday, May 10, 2005.)
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To: ValerieUSA

"But did the Etruscans have red hair?"

But of course! Red hair is only attributed to Germans and Keltics in modern times. But, red hair was common in Lebannon. Esau was red!

I hope your comment is for the humor impaired!

Know that the Lebanon was once populated by fair skinned and red-haired people.

Why? I do not know. Cedar, red, red hair...I do not know...


38 posted on 08/08/2005 10:45:05 PM PDT by Prost1 (New AG, Berger is still free, copped a plea! I still get my news from FR!)
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To: SunkenCiv

Interesting stuff. I have read one theory that Etruscans are Polynesian people.


39 posted on 01/17/2006 3:26:46 PM PST by Ptarmigan (Proud bunny hater and killer)
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To: SunkenCiv

Interesting stuff. I have read one theory that Etruscans are Polynesian people.


40 posted on 01/17/2006 3:26:46 PM PST by Ptarmigan (Proud bunny hater and killer)
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To: Ptarmigan

:') I've read about a Polynesian-Greek connection before...


41 posted on 01/17/2006 8:27:50 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

I believe that both of these languages are dead, are they not? If so, how do we know what they sounded like?


42 posted on 01/17/2006 8:34:07 PM PST by Rocky (Air America: Robbing the poor to feed the Left)
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To: Rocky

Etruscan isn't spoken (other than some loanword descendants) and longer texts of the language are nearly unknown. There are some Latin-Etruscan bilinguals, and some "pidgin" inscriptions; also the Lemnian stele, which was found on Lemnos in the Aegean (!) and appears to record Etruscan or something like it (or ancestral to it). The ancient sources say that the Etruscans were transplants to Italy, having come from the Aegean and Anatolia. That remains my view.

The way to pronounce Etruscan is a modern guess, based on the bilinguals, plus some comments in surviving ancient sources. It would be nice if Claudius' history of the Etruscans turns up in the Piso library in Herculanaeum, or anywhere really, regardless of how much chaff may be in it.

Polynesian is still spoken. Greek is still spoken. :')


43 posted on 01/17/2006 8:47:48 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Latin has some elements of Etruscan words from what I have read before.


44 posted on 01/18/2006 4:41:10 PM PST by Ptarmigan (Proud bunny hater and killer)
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45 posted on 11/04/2009 5:36:24 PM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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