Inscription in Carian and Greek

Anistoriton ^ | 27 Dec. 1997 | (editors)

[SunkenCiv]

On 8/9 November 1997 the Swiss newspaper Neue Zurcher Zeitung reported that German and Turks archaeologists, who conducted excavations at the ancient site of Kaunos on Asia Minor coast just across the Greek island of Rhodes, unearthed an inscription in two scripts. The top part is inscribed in the Carian language and the same text is repeated in the lower part in classical Greek. The inscription is a resolution of the city of Kaunos to honor two Athenians, one of whom is Nikokles of Lycekleous a fairly know person and contemporary of Demosthenes. Thus, the stone was safely dated to the second half of the 4th c. BCE.

[SunkenCiv]

Interesting. The page was obviously translated from Greek to English.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.

[SunkenCiv]

Carian was a non-Greek tongue, apparently from Anatolia and points east, but according to ancient sources (and to some extent, artifacts), was spoken at one time throughout the Aegean and in Greece. The Greek city Corinth translates as "place of the Kar".

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the "Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list --
Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.

[Antoninus]

Lingus pingus.

[jimtorr]

Of course, the actual Greek tribes, like the Achaeans, Dorians and Hellenes, Indo-European peoples all, were comparative latecomers on the scene. It only makes sense that the cultures they displaced spoke a different language.

[curmudgeonII]

Contrary to popular belief, wasn't Herodotus [who has been labelled both as The father of History and The father of Liars ] a Carian?

[VadeRetro]

Wonder if Carian, if deciphered, will offer clues to the so-far mysterious Minoan language and its Linear A script.

[SunkenCiv]

He was from Halicarnassus I think (if not, then probably Miletus; I'm too lazy to look it up), so he may have had Carian ancestors, but he definitely considered himself Greek, and (I believe) spoke the Ionian dialect. He discusses the Carians and Caunians and Cretans in some detail. I believe it was Plutarch referred to Herodotus as "Father of Lies" as a refutation of Herodotus' ancient reputation as "Father of History". Herodotus dealt with the Persians in a pretty fair manner, which ticked off Plutarch. Herodotus also records that the Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf, Aqaba, and Red Sea are all one body of water, and furthermore, are one with the Atlantic. He records four different stories regarding the source of the Nile's water and out-of-season flood stage, including a howler he speculated himself, as well as the actual reason, which he says is the least likely of all. ;') He's a delight, and a rich source.

[SunkenCiv]

It seems likely that the Carians were the Minoans (that was Herodotus' call, or rather one of them), among other things, and doesn't seem unlikely that Linear A probably records Carian. Carian inscriptions are rare, and generally very short.

[DeuceTraveler]

Sweet! Another language uncovered.

[SunkenCiv]

from "Giving Goliath His Due: New Archaeological Light on the Philistines":

The Origins of the Philistines: The Plague on the Philistines
by Neal Bierling

The area around Mount Sipylus was probably part of Arzawa, with the Carians and Lycians to the south. The Greek geographer Strabo (late first century B.C. to early first century A.D.) quotes the Greek poet Kallinos, who claimed that Troy was colonized by Cretans. Smintheus may be a Cretan word, though it has also been identified as western Anatolian (Mysian) (Leaf 1923, 240; R. Miller 1939, 35; M. Wood 1986, 180). The nth sound of Smintheus, according to A. R. Burn, is characteristic of Cretan, Carian, and southern Aegean (1930, 89). Whether the movement of culture and language was from Crete to western Anatolia or vice versa cannot be determined, and places in both regions sharing similar names are common and widespread. For example, Mount Ida in the Troad shares its name with the sacred mountain in Crete.

It's been online for years, and appeared in print once before; that edition is gone, but there's a new edition in print with a new foreword.

Philistines: Giving Goliath His Due Marco Polo Monographs, No. 7. by Neal Bierling foreword by Joe E. Seger

[SunkenCiv]

The Histories
by Herodotus
Book I -- Clio
tr by George Rawlinson

Now, of the above nations the Carians are a race who came into the mainland from the islands. In ancient times they were subjects of king Minos, and went by the name of Leleges, dwelling among the isles, and, so far as I have been able to push my inquiries, never liable to give tribute to any man. They served on board the ships of king Minos whenever he required; and thus, as he was a great conqueror and prospered in his wars, the Carians were in his day the most famous by far of all the nations of the earth. They likewise were the inventors of three things, the use of which was borrowed from them by the Greeks; they were the first to fasten crests on helmets and to put devices on shields, and they also invented handles for shields. In the earlier times shields were without handles, and their wearers managed them by the aid of a leathern thong, by which they were slung round the neck and left shoulder. Long after the time of Minos, the Carians were driven from the islands by the Ionians and Dorians, and so settled upon the mainland. The above is the account which the Cretans give of the Carians: the Carians themselves say very differently. They maintain that they are the aboriginal inhabitants of the part of the mainland where they now dwell, and never had any other name than that which they still bear; and in proof of this they show an ancient temple of Carian Jove in the country of the Mylasians, in which the Mysians and Lydians have the right of worshipping, as brother races to the Carians: for Lydus and Mysus, they say, were brothers of Car. These nations, therefore, have the aforesaid right; but such as are of a different race, even though they have come to use the Carian tongue, are excluded from this temple.

The Caunians, in my judgment, are aboriginals; but by their own account they came from Crete. In their language, either they have approximated to the Carians, or the Carians to them -- on this point I cannot speak with certainty. In their customs, however, they differ greatly from the Carians, and not only so, but from all other men. They think it a most honourable practice for friends or persons of the same age, whether they be men, women, or children, to meet together in large companies, for the purpose of drinking wine. Again, on one occasion they determined that they would no longer make use of the foreign temples which had been long established among them, but would worship their own old ancestral gods alone. Then their whole youth took arms, and striking the air with their spears, marched to the Calyndic frontier, declaring that they were driving out the foreign gods.

The Histories
by Herodotus
Book VIII -- Urania
tr by George Rawlinson

One thing which the Thebans declare to have happened at this time is to me very surprising. Mys, the European, they say, after he had gone about to all the oracles, came at last to the sacred precinct of Apollo Ptous. The place itself bears the name of Ptoum; it is in the country of the Thebans, and is situated on the mountain side overlooking Lake Copais, only a very little way from the town called Acraephia. Here Mys arrived, and entered the temple, followed by three Theban citizens -- picked men whom the state had appointed to take down whatever answer the god might give. No sooner was he entered than the prophet delivered him an oracle, but in a foreign tongue; so that his Theban attendants were astonished, hearing a strange language when they expected Greek, and did not know what to do. Mys, however, the European, snatched from their hands the tablet which they had brought with them, and wrote down what the prophet uttered. The reply, he told them, was in the Carian dialect. After this, Mys departed and returned to Thessaly.

[SunkenCiv]

Caria
by Jona Lendering

The first reference to Carian mercenaries can be found in the Bible: in 2 Kings 11.4, we read about Carians in Judah. (This may look strange, but it fits the picture: according to 2 Samuel 8.18, king David had a guard of Cretans.) The books of Kings were probably composed in the sixth century, but the information stems from older sources; this is the only mentioning of the Carians in the dark ages.

The website is a great preliminary source, sort of an online encyclopedia written by Lendering.

George W. Bush will be reelected by a margin of at least ten per cent.

[SunkenCiv]

see the in-reply-to link.

History of Ancient Greece
11th Brittanica
Internet Ancient History Sourcebook

Neither in Crete nor on the mainland is there any trace of the worship of the "Olympian" deities. The cults in vogue remind us rather of Asia than of Greece. The worship of pillars and of trees carries us back to Canaan, while the doubleheaded axe, so prominent in the ritual of Cnossus, survives in later times as the symbol of the national deity of the Carians. The beehivetombs, found on many sites on the mainland besides Mycenae, are evidence both of a method of sepulture and of ideas of the future state, which are alien to the practice and the thought of the Greeks of history. It is only in one region-in the island of Cyprus-that the culture of the Mycenaean age is found surviving into the historical period. As late as the beginning of the 9th century B.C. Cyprus is still ruled by kings, the alphabet has not yet displaced a syllabary, the characteristic forms of Mycenaean vases still linger on, and the chief deity of the island is the goddess with attendant doves whose images are among the common objects of Mycenaean finds.

[SunkenCiv]

An additional reply...

Herodotus' Conception of Foreign Languages
Thomas Harrison
Durham Classics Department

It is probable that Herodotus could not read or speak any language other than Greek. We might have expected a Halicarnassian to have been able to understand Carian... Herodotus introduces the question of whether the Carian language derives from the Caunian or vice versa, but cannot settle it (1.172). A glance at the range of remarks made by Herodotus on other foreign languages shows, however, that there is nothing here to suggest a special knowledge or even a special interest in Carian. Nor can we merely take for granted from Herodotus' Carian background that he was able to understand the Carian language.

[SunkenCiv]

Whoops. See this in-reply-to link in relation to message 13. [blush]

[SunkenCiv]

Another Carian topic on FR:

Quarry, Setting and Team Marks: The Carian Connection
	Posted by SunkenCiv On Bloggers & Personal 10/08/2004 3:20:42 PM PDT · 1 reply · 41+ views University of Leiden (Netherlands) | 1998 | (about) Sheldon Lee Gosline In this paper, the author proposes some specific attributions for signs deriving from the Carian or another West-Anatolian script found on in situ blocks from standing walls: quarry, block positioning, or team marks. The proposals are based on data from three distant yet related sites where such marks have been preserved, among which the Khnum temple terrace on Elephantine. In time, however, the quarry marks at Elephantine do not correspond with the other two sites. Therefore, the author proposes that the terrace was built several hundred years earlier than the Graeco-Roman Period to which the terrace is usually dated, or...

[SunkenCiv]

bttt with a few related GGG / FR topics:

Amazon Warrior Women
PBS ^ | Current | PBS
Posted on 08/04/2004 8:51:53 PM PDT by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1185293/posts

The Argonaut Epos and Bronze Age Economic History
Economics Department, City College of New York
Revised May 14, 1999 | Morris Silver
Posted on 08/25/2004 10:30:51 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1199756/posts

Non-Attic Characters
University of California, Irvine, Thesaurus Linguae Graecae
September 7 2003 (rev 9-28-2003) | Nick Nicholas
Posted on 07/18/2004 6:43:19 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1173901/posts

So Who Is Buried in Midas's Tomb?
NYT ^ | 12/25/2001 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Posted on 12/24/2001 10:12:01 PM PST by a_Turk
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/596541/posts

The Truth About An Epic Tale Of Love, War And Greed (Troy)
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 3-24-2004
Posted on 03/25/2004 12:03:11 PM PST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1105131/posts

Was There a Trojan War?
Archaeology ^ | May/June 2004 | Manfred Korfmann
Posted on 07/29/2004 11:43:38 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1181498/posts?page=3#3

[SunkenCiv]

Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[SunkenCiv]

· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic ·
	Gods Graves Glyphs	Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution. To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
·Dogpile · Archaeologica · ArchaeoBlog · Archaeology · Biblical Archaeology Society · · Discover · Nat Geographic · Texas AM Anthro News · Yahoo Anthro & Archaeo · Google · · The Archaeology Channel · Excerpt, or Link only? · cgk's list of ping lists ·