FAIR's conference starts today...
As indicated, what do you think is THE most common topic presentation at this conference?
Allow me to provide some presentation titles:
Lead-off A.M. talk: Shaken Faith Syndrome, Part Deux
Mid-afternoon: Why Mormonism Matters: Pastoral Apologetics and the LDS Doubter
Second day (A.M.): Disenchanted Mormonism
Second day, Mid-afternoon: The Loss and Rekindling of Faith
THIS is the ONLY topic that gets attention EVERY morning and afternoon of the Mormon apologists' conference!
Placemarker
Here's the NY Times article: Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt
Here's the FR discussion from someone posting that article: Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt [See post #50 for two additional FR links which previously discussed the apostasy going on among Mormons in Sweden...prior to the Times highlighting it]
Anybody gonna say anything about Napoleon Bonaparte and the Rosetta Stone??
Interesting! Mormonism may be the first case in history where the internet exposed a false prophet and cult leadership(past, present and future) who over the last 170 years or so have exploited millions for fun and “PROFIT!”
“there’s not a nail in the coffin, that proves the church is false,” he said.”
Sure it’s false.
It is unBiblical, it perverts the nature of God, it offers “another Gospel” as a substitute for His Gospel of grace, it teaches polytheism, it’s founder was a scammer and Horndog,and its foundation is feelings.
In short, there isn’t a single thing it has in common with Christianity except the name of Christ... And when they use it, the mean an entirely different person than the Jesus Christ revealed in the Bible.
Bigotry, lies, and five more minutes of HATE. Isn’t God proud of you?
Also, Pew Forum just came out with a study among Mormons...it says the biggest reason why convert Mormons join, which are over a quarter of all Mormons, is "beliefs."
(So much for those who portend that "theology" doesn't matter)
Per the survey results from over 3,000 Mormons seriously reviewing their faith --
--see UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do? for 26-page results!
-- Here are the top five "General Factors Contributing to Disbelief"...[this is found on page 8 chart of results]:
1. I ceased to believe in the church's doctrine/theology (74%)
2. I studied church history and lost my belief (70%)
3. I lost faith in Joseph Smith (70%) [my note: A very bad place to place & transfer faith toward to begin with!]
4. I lost faith in the Book of Mormon (65%)
5. I lost confidence in the general authorities (50%)
Two other factors within the Top 10 included:
* "I did not feel spiritually edified at church" (47%)
* and "Church's stance on race issues (blacks, native Americans, etc.)" (43%).
In contrast to the reasons Mormons & Mormon leaders often pin upon such disbelievers, only 4% said it was because they were offended by someone in the church and 4% also pinpointed "I wanted to engage in behaviors viewed as sinful by the church" [the very bottom reasons listed on the chart].
12% said they "received a spiritual witness to leave the church and go elsewhere"...Over 1/4 said they lost their faith in God/Jesus.
FR postings on this topic from earlier this year:
* Mormon Reformation [Posting of 95 Theses on Mormon Church Doors]
* How to Stay in the LDS Church After a Major Trial of Faith [Internal Mormon critic]
* 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church [Lds FAIR group critiqued]
* Sunstone 2012 Recap [Focus on internal Lds critic Dehlin's presentation on why some Mormons stay]
* Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
* Viewpoint: 'Hold on to what you believe' [Lds: 'Does it feel...everyone you know is falling away?']
Postings previous to that on this topic:
* When He Stopped Believing [Mormon exodus underway] [Note: This was in the official Lds church publication, Ensign]
* But Im a good Mormon wife: Sean and I had the perfect life. Then his faith started to crumble...
* Different takes on Mormon faith from Republican rivals [Mormon exodus underway]
* 'Spiritual Olympics' Series (S.O.S.): A Glimpse of Mormonism Around the Globe [Vanity]
Earlier 2012 postings:
*Notes: Mormonism and the Internet [Duplicity/mixed messages cited; baptism-of-dead issue lingers]
* Survey on Mormon Disbelievers to be Released at UVU Forum [74% point to theological concerns]
* Why Mormons flee their church
* Number of faithful Mormons rapidly declining
* Mormons opening up in an Internet world [& Losing members accordingly]
* Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses]
* See also 2010 posting: Why Mormons Leave
Changes are coming.
Top 7 Issues Leading to Mormon Exodus | % of Sampled Disaffected Lds Pinpointing Specific Issues (Per Sample of 3,000+ LDS, what % rated as a 'major problem') | Q: What is Dehlin's take on these issues? |
1. Fallout from disbelieving Mormon theology/doctrine | 74% | "Forget 'true.' Consider 'good.' -- What will bring you the most joy?" Source: Slide 36, http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/why-people-leave-the-lds-mormon-church-and-how-we-can-help-1232579 |
2. Studying Mormon church history leading to disbelief | 70%...and per p. 11 of Mormon sample taken by Dehlin, the third-fastest rising issue as affecting disbelief | * 5th generation LDS * Mormon world view * Very conservative theological and doctrinal LDS education * Served mission * Married in temple * "Morally clean" * Aspired to high level church positions * Called as early morning seminary teacher [slide 7 from Oct 2007 presentation found at: http://www.slideshare.net/mormonstories/how-to-stay-in-the-lds-church-after-losing-your-faith]...Then in slide 8, he said: "In spite of 32 years of church education, didn't ever learn about...* "Peepstone in hat" treasure digging and translation of Book of Mormon * Credibility issues w/ the 3 and 8 witnesses * Multiple lst vision stories, and the changing narrative of founding stories * Book of Mormon historicity issues * Book of Abraham papyrus issues * Joseph Smith having 30+ wives, 8+ of them married to other men at the time they were sealed to Joseph * Post-Manifesto polygamy, and polygamy as a requirement for exaltation * The depth of the Temple Masonry connections * The basics of Mountain Meadows (though lots about Haun's mill)...* The extreme racist statements and opposition in civil rights by top church leaders In slide 9: Dehlin "felt * Deceived * Disappointed * Angry * Like it was all a fraud * Like I had a moral obligation to resign" "I quickly discovered that I was not not alone...not by a long shot" |
3. Losing faith/testimony in Joseph Smith | 70% | "Once this happens to you...* You can never look at Joseph Smith the same way again * You never look at scripture the same way again * You never look at the church the same way again * You never think of 'authority' the same way again * Your concept of God and Jesus and the 'one true church' can change dramatically." 2008 presentation, slide 31 |
4. Losing faith in Book of Mormon as historical account | 65% | Per the 2012 Sunstone conference, he "doesn't believe the Book of Mormon is a literal history, but believes it is inspired" Per his Oct 2007 powerpoint: "Decades of serious and honest scholarship have failed to uncover credible evidence that these Book of Mormon civilizations ever existed" (slide 11); In his 2008 powerpoint (slide 24): "What the history/facts seem to tell us...the Book of Mormon * Has had over 4,000 changes. Many minor, some major. * Geography? "Narrow neck?" Which Cumorah? Where is Cumorah? No one knows. * Where are the steel swords? Armor? Bones? * Horses? Elephants? Steel? Barley? Wheat? 7-day calendar? * DNA? 95%+ Asiatic * Who are the Lamanites? * View of the Hebrews. Book of Abraham--Experts agree (Nibley included)--is not a translation of the papyrus |
5. Losing confidence in Lds general authorities | 50% | Dehlin has actually had conversational access to Lds general authorities. Per the 2012 Wheat & Tares article based upon a Dehlin Sunstone presentation: "John asked point blank if the person [a member of the Quorum of the 12] "wanted liberal Mormons inside the church, and the apostle emphatically said yes..." |
6. Lds stances re: women | 47% | For more on this, see Feb. 10, 2013 Podcast: 400: Top 5 Myths and Truths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church |
7. Mormon Racism: Exclusion of blacks from Priesthood into 1978 | 43% | 2008, slide 13 includes these Brigham Young quotes from the Journal of Discourses: "You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race that they should be the 'servant of servants;' and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree."--Brigham Young JOD v. 7 p. 290 "Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so." --Brigham Young JOD vol. 10, p. 109 |
Source references:
* Source for column 2: Page 8 of UNDERSTANDING MORMON DISBELIEF: Why do some Mormons lose their testimony, and what happens to them when they do?
* 2012 Sunstone Conference (see Sunstone 2012 Recap)
* 2009 = How to Stay in the Lds Church After a Major Trial of Faith (Oct. 12, 2009)
* 2008 = Why People Leave the LDS Church, and what family/friends/community can do about it
God provides many blessings. It is good that we recognize those blessings which are Mormon.
This brings to mind that the origins of the LDS and the profile of its "prophet" bear striking similarities with Islam and Mohammed. Both borrowed heavily and clumsily from Judaism and Christianity and both leaders were charismatic frauds who were inclined to alter their prophesies for convenience sake and take whatever they wanted, up to and including every girl and woman that caught their eye.
How does one “up their game” in defending a lie, lie better?
Problems noted in the Article: The Internet increases access to -- and questions about -- the entirety of church history ... increasingly frequent run-ins are changing church members' attitudes toward criticisms of its history and doctrine ... [there is a] cultural shift within the church ... [church members] think that Sunday school is a history class, and it's not ... [there is a rapidly] growing audience [of doubting believers] ...
FAIR's Non-Response: [We are gathering] to provide this education in a believing, faithful and unafraid spirit ... not here to stir the pot; we're here to try to heal wounds in a safe environment ... [to] appreciate the great things the church has accomplished ... [hopefully the "great things" will demonstrate] truthfulness of the its teachings -- even with [i.e. despite] the [amoral, satanic, occult, bizarre sexual practices and criminal] weaknesses and shortcomings of its members [including its leadership, down to and including its founding prophet]
In other words: The primary apologetics ministry of the Mormon Church is dancing around the issues, providing non-answers to the tough questions, because quite frankly, they have no other alternative! The Church is rapidly losing the war!
Colofornian, great post. Thanks.
I mean it's got what? 138 sections or so...and the first 123 of them (+ sections 133, 134, & 137) were Smithized into being by March 1839...meaning the Mormon god was quite effusive post Book of Mormon's 1830 print date for 9 years...and since then these Mormon "prophets" have been rather seerless.
I mean section 135 isn't "revelational"...just a historical account from Mormon leaders' eyes...
So...we get a dream from an old man nephew of Smith -- about to die -- and that's deemed "scripturable" to add to the D&C as section 138...along with a brief nothing by Brigham as D&C 137...
What happened to the "continuing revelation"???
And then, even with those 1830s "revelations"...all those names in those sections...
Did you ever stop and see how many of those names of Mormons mentioned by Smith apostatized?
These weren't for the most part wicked men...Thomas B. Marsh per an official D&C student manual published by the Mormon church in 2000 labeled Marsh "among God's noblest sons" (p. 65, published 2000) He was part of the apostles quorum as of 1837.
Why did Marsh leave the church? Thomas B. Marshs Story: A More Accurate Version of Why He Left the Church
In the index of that student manual, W.W. Phelps -- whose name pops up in a LOT of Mormon hymns -- is mentioned as having become disaffected and excommunicated (see p. 505).
Phelps was rejected as a member yet was said to be a "man of God"
Just look at all of the names of the Mormons who left in the D&C:
* William McLellan (M'Lellin)
* Lyman E. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
* Luke S. Johnson, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
* John F. Boynton, part of the 1837 apostles quorum
The early leaders with Smith all left...Sidney Rigdon, David Whitmer, John Whitmer (mentioned in D&C 47:1), Warren Cowdery ALL Left the Mormon Church! ...Warren Cowdery joined Warren Parrish, Leonard Rich, and Stephen Burnett leaving in Kirtland...
Even Mormons like Oliver Cowdery & a feeble-minded, feeble-bodied Martin Harris who died having returned to some level of fellowship with Mormons, each left for a while.
William Law was a counselor to Smith...and turned vs. him vociferously...
Even Lds apostle Orson Pratt was disaffected vs. Smith when Smith tried to have him turn over his wife to him -- like Lds apostle quorum leader Orson Hyde had to do...and even Hyde signed the same affidavit referenced in the Marsh link above.
Ezra Booth's name pops up a few times in the D&C. He left and returned to Methodism.
James Covill is mentioned in D&C 39 & 40...he had been a Baptist minister for about 40 years...he exited Mormonism.
*************
Later in Mormonism...see: The last son of Joseph Smith understood the power of doubt [Real Mormonism]
(A Quiz: Match 8 these 8 past Mormon leaders to the "answers" about them)
Some of them remained loyal...despite Smith targeting their wives.