The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource [20th Revision]

At some finite time in the past, life began somehow. (How it began is beyond the scope of the theory, but the observational evidence strongly suggests that only one such beginning on Earth has left descendants to the present day.) As life reproduces and multiplies, mutations occur with small but finite probabilities, causing new genes to be added, and creating new alleles of existing genes. The different alleles confer different traits upon their owners, rendering them more or less successful in coping with their environments. The organisms that are more successful in coping with their environments consequently have a slightly greater probability of passing their genes to the next generation of organisms than do the less successful organisms. This causes allele frequencies to change over time.

Because mutations are random according to their probabilities, there is essentially a zero probability that two non-interbreeding populations will get the same set of mutations. (Even if they somehow do, there is essentially a zero probability that the frequencies of the alleles will end up the same in both populations.) The alleles and new genes available in each population will therefore diverge, with the result that the populations become genetically more distant from each other over time. Eventually, the two populations will become genetically so distant that they lose the ability to produce viable hybrids between them. This is the cause of the origin of species.

Working Theory of Creationism

Gen 1:1-31
¹In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. ²And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. ³And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. ⁴And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness. ⁵And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. ⁶And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. ⁷And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so. ⁸And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. ⁹And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so. ¹⁰And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good. ¹¹And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. ¹²And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. ¹³And the evening and the morning were the third day. ¹⁴And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: ¹⁵And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. ¹⁶And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. ¹⁷And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, ¹⁸And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good. ¹⁹And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. ²⁰And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. ²¹And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. ²²And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. ²³And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. ²⁴And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. ²⁵And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. ²⁶And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ²⁷So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. ²⁸And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. ²⁹And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. ³⁰And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so. ³¹And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Gen 2:1-25
¹Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. ²And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. ³And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. ⁴These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, ⁵And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground. ⁶But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. ⁷And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. ⁸And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. ⁹And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. ¹⁰And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. ¹¹The name of the first [is] Pison: that [is] it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where [there is] gold; ¹²And the gold of that land [is] good: there [is] bdellium and the onyx stone. ¹³And the name of the second river [is] Gihon: the same [is] it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. ¹⁴And the name of the third river [is] Hiddekel: that [is] it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river [is] Euphrates. ¹⁵And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. ¹⁶And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: ¹⁷But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ¹⁸And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. ¹⁹And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought [them] unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that [was] the name thereof. ²⁰And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. ²¹And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; ²²And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. ²³And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. ²⁴Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. ²⁵And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: crevo; crevolist

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To: Sentis

it is very important conservatives embrace real science if we are ultimately to overcome the demoncrats. It is in their best interest to keep people uneducated and in the dark when it comes to real science.

Welcome to the Science Threads! You will find, however, that many Conservatives have a agenda similar to that of Liberals and would very much like to prevent certain theories from being taught in our schools.

21 posted on 12/22/2002 10:29:08 AM PST by Aracelis

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To: f.Christian

f.christian your posts as usual make absolutely no sense can you translate this one for us?

22 posted on 12/22/2002 10:29:24 AM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis

In support of my last post, I offer the following link for your consideration. This kind of stuff happens all the time. Don't let it put you off from participation:

Typical anti-science rant

23 posted on 12/22/2002 10:34:08 AM PST by Aracelis

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To: Piltdown_Woman

piltdown woman wrote "Welcome to the Science Threads! You will find, however, that many Conservatives have a agenda similar to that of Liberals and would very much like to prevent certain theories from being taught in our schools."

That is so sad. It would be nice if we could get together on this. I wish there was a party for people like me. Objectivists are far to concerned with themselves, Libertarians want to shut themselves up in a box and lock the rest of the world out, Republicans kowtow to the lowest common denominator. What is left? I need to join a bunch of gun toting scientists who would die to save liberaty from the embrace of the socialists, pretty much like in a Heinlein novel. :)

24 posted on 12/22/2002 10:35:16 AM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis; longshadow; PatrickHenry; general_re; Physicist

I need to join a bunch of gun toting scientists

LOL, then, "Welcome Aboard"! :-)

25 posted on 12/22/2002 10:38:40 AM PST by Aracelis

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To: Sentis

Creation/God...REFORMATION(Judeo-Christianity)---secular-govt.-humanism/SCIENCE---CIVILIZATION!

Originally the word liberal meant social conservatives(no govt religion--none) who advocated growth and progress---mostly technological(knowledge being absolute/unchanging)based on law--reality... UNDER GOD---the nature of GOD/man/govt. does not change. These were the Classical liberals...founding fathers-PRINCIPLES---stable/SANE scientific reality/society---industrial progress...moral/social character-values(private/personal) GROWTH(limited NON-intrusive PC Govt/religion---schools)!

Evolution...Atheism-dehumanism---TYRANNY(pc/liberal/govt-religion/rhetoric)...

Then came the evo babbles---incoherents!

26 posted on 12/22/2002 10:39:49 AM PST by f.Christian

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To: f.Christian

F.christian try inserting some verbs. Possibly that is your problem. At the very least stop using slashes.

27 posted on 12/22/2002 10:48:31 AM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis

Then came the evo babbles...incoherents===police!!

28 posted on 12/22/2002 10:50:40 AM PST by f.Christian

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To: f.Christian

This has got to be the weirdest poster I have seen on any board I have used.

f.christian wrote "Then came the evo babbles...incoherents===police!!"

ok does this mean the evolutionists came and babbled were incoherent then the police showed up?

or does it mean the evolutionists came You babbled incoherently and the police drug you off for some metal treatment?

I tend to support the second interpretation

29 posted on 12/22/2002 10:55:20 AM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis

Most on these threads have given up posting to that idiot. He has never made any sense. Even the creationists don't seem to pay him/her any attention. Apparently he/she is entertained by it.

30 posted on 12/22/2002 11:10:10 AM PST by laredo44

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To: laredo44

Coming from evos...compliments---accolades!

31 posted on 12/22/2002 11:13:53 AM PST by f.Christian

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To: laredo44

Main Entry: ac·co·lade
Pronunciation: 'a-k&-"lAd, -"läd
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from accoler to embrace, from (assumed) Vulgar Latin accollare, from Latin ad- + collum neck -- more at COLLAR
Date: 1623
1 a : a ceremonial embrace b : a ceremony or salute conferring knighthood
2 a : a mark of acknowledgment : AWARD b : an expression of praise
3 : a brace or a line used in music to join two or more staffs carrying simultaneous parts

What an honor too...thaks!

32 posted on 12/22/2002 11:20:31 AM PST by f.Christian

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To: f.Christian

Nice to see you can cut and paste a major step forward. Why do I encourage this guy? Maybe it's fun.

33 posted on 12/22/2002 11:56:35 AM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis

Meli kaliki maka...houli maka hiki hou...

Good News For The Day

‘The truth will set you free.’ (John 8:32)

"God's dismissal in the 19th century, and the humiliation of truth in the 2oth, was supposed to set the world free."

"The experiment has been under way for some time now, and it is fair to ask, what are the... results---so far?"

"The Nazi experience in Germany provides a case study. There, a government and a society were organized on the principle of God's non-existence. Did liberation come to pass? On the wall of one of the death camps there is a plaque. It preserves the language of one of Hitler's speeches. The plaque overlooks large mounds of human hair, piles of personal effects; shoes, spectacles. The plaque reads: "I freed Germany from the degrading fallacy of conscience and morality. We will train people capable of violence-imperious, relentless, cruel. . ."

"Those sentiments were nurtured on the same continent that gave the world the reformation. Which was more liberating? If someone came today and said: "I am the truth," we would not take him seriously. But when Jesus says it, we are tempted to let him get away with it. If he is mad, it is a beautiful madness; such an attractive insanity. Let us not be ashamed to offer Christ to the world."

‘The truth will set you free.’ (John 8:32)

----------------------------------------------------------------

Good News For The Day

‘I am the truth. . ..’(John 14:6)

For most of time, men and women have assumed that the truth was there to be found out. This began to change in the 19th century and the change gathered pace in the 20th. As people began to question the existence of God, it became obvious to some, that the existence of truth requires the existence of God. With God dismissed, it became impossible to conceive of truth in any absolute sense. This has resulted in the humiliation of truth. Truth is now whatever you would like it to be.

Truth's demise has filtered down through the great centers of learning, the arts, and on into streets and homes. Everything is possible with truth gone. Everything is permissible. Musicians make music that doesn't sound musical. Painters paint pictures that are incomprehensible to normal folk. Playwrights write plays that are nonsense, and architects design buildings that no one can understand. All this is put forward as legitimate, but what does it all mean?

No matter how much... popular culture---is encouraged to believe in the relativity of truth, no one can build a decent life on such a notion.

Inevitably proponents of freedom from God, and from absolute truth, are obliged to reach outside of their own system, and borrow something from theism in order to make their lives work. The person who believes that everything is valid, will soon find that he is condemned to meaninglessness. Christ is a standing offer of escape from such a hell as this To believe that truth is like Christ, is salvation indeed.

34 posted on 12/22/2002 12:04:43 PM PST by f.Christian

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To: f.Christian

f.christian wrote "The Nazi experience in Germany provides a case study. There, a government and a society were organized on the principle of God's non-existence. "

Nope, as a matter of fact Hitler was very religious in his own new age pseudoscientific way. He believed the God (Never really named) created the perfect German race and set them above all other races. they had fled Atlantis and suffered for centuries until they found their birth right in the National socialist party.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Creationism/Essays/Hitler.shtml

f.christian wrote "As people began to question the existence of God, it became obvious to some, that the existence of truth requires the existence of God. With God dismissed, it became impossible to conceive of truth in any absolute sense. This has resulted in the humiliation of truth. Truth is now whatever you would like it to be."

Nope the existence of Truth requires the existence of scientific inquiry. If you would like to learn a bit more about objective truth read a little Rand. While I don't agree with all her conclusions she gives a wonderful grounding in truth without god.

f.christian wrote or did he just cut and paste these and they are someone elses words in his mouth "Truth's demise has filtered down through the great centers of learning, the arts, and on into streets and homes. Everything is possible with truth gone. Everything is permissible. Musicians make music that doesn't sound musical. Painters paint pictures that are incomprehensible to normal folk. Playwrights write plays that are nonsense, and architects design buildings that no one can understand. All this is put forward as legitimate, but what does it all mean?"

Nope these things are the result of bad taste rather than any lack of Truth. I mean have you heard the junk that passes for Christian rock?

35 posted on 12/22/2002 12:16:02 PM PST by Sentis

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To: Sentis; f.Christian

f.christian wrote or did he just cut and paste these and they are someone elses words in his mouth "Truth's demise has filtered down through the great centers of learning, the arts, and on into streets and homes. Everything is possible with truth gone. Everything is permissible. Musicians make music that doesn't sound musical. Painters paint pictures that are incomprehensible to normal folk. Playwrights write plays that are nonsense, and architects design buildings that no one can understand. All this is put forward as legitimate, but what does it all mean?"

The really incredible thing about this post--other than its coherence--is that this was exactly Ayn Rand's belief regarding art that doesn't glorify Man. The rhetoric was practically cribbed from her. Of course, she was full of codswallop on this score, at least. There really is no accounting for taste.

36 posted on 12/22/2002 12:30:42 PM PST by Physicist

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To: Sentis

Is that what you believe..."under reason"---what do you think that is all about?

37 posted on 12/22/2002 12:33:58 PM PST by f.Christian

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To: Physicist

Its a sad day for christians when they must use Ayn Rand's philosophy as a support for their claims.

38 posted on 12/22/2002 12:35:08 PM PST by Sentis

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To: PatrickHenry

could you please add me to your ping list also?

39 posted on 12/22/2002 12:35:45 PM PST by ContentiousObjector

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To: f.Christian

f.christian wrote "Is that what you believe..."under reason"---what do you think that is all about?"

I dont know what you are talking about can you please please make some sense. I'm bored today and need something to argue about but if I can't understand your incoherent posts I can't respond.

40 posted on 12/22/2002 12:38:24 PM PST by Sentis

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