Posted on 11/03/2011 7:29:48 AM PDT by marshmallow
Imagine that the Occupy Wall Street protest continued for years, during which time the community of protesters divided into different factions, each with different beliefs, different demands, and different leaders. But the protests continued for so long that the protesters eventually built makeshift shanties and lived in them, and had children. These children grew up in the protesting communities, and then they too had children, who also grew up in the same communities of protesters, still encamped in the Wall Street district. Over the course of these generations, however, these communities of protesters forgot what it was that they were protesting. They even forgot that they were protesting. Life in the shanties in Wall Street was what these subsequent generations had always known. They did not even know that they had inherited a protesting way of life, separated from the rest of society.
When asked by a reporter what Wall Street would have to change in order to get them to return home, they looked at him confusedly, and responded, “We are home; this is home.” They no longer had any intention to ‘return to society’ upon achieving some political or economic reform. For them, camping out on Wall Street was life as normal, and those with whom they had grown up camping simply were their society.
What if Protestantism in its present form is the fractured remains of a Catholic protest movement that began in 1517, but which has long since forgotten not only what it was protesting, but that it was formed by Catholics, in protest over conditions and practices within the Catholic Church? What if Protestantism has forgotten that its original intention was to return to full communion with the Catholic Church when certain conditions were satisfied?
During the week approaching Reformation Sunday last year those questions prompted me to write, “Trueman and Prolegomena to “How would Protestants know when to return?”.” I included the term ‘prolegomena’ because before discussing the conditions under which Protestants can return to full communion with the Catholic Church, Protestants (and Catholics) must first recover the memory of our history, not only our shared history as one Church prior to the sixteenth century, but also the history by which we came to be divided during that century. Recovering that history shows not only that the early Protestants never intended to form a perpetual schism from the Catholic Church, but also helps us remember that Protestant communities are by their history, communities in exile from the Catholic Church, and thereby by that history ordered toward eventual reconciliation and reunion with the Catholic Church. According to that history Protestantism began as a protest movement initially made up of Catholics protesting the Catholic Church and seeking to reform her; it was never intended to remain perpetually in schism from her. Semper Reformanda does not translate as “perpetually in schism.” Hence in “Trueman and Prolegomena” I quoted Protestant professor of historical theology Carl Trueman, who wrote:
[W]e [Protestants] need good, solid reasons for not being Catholic; not being a Catholic should, in others words, be a positive act of will and commitment, something we need to get out of bed determined to do each and every day.
Yet even among those Protestants who retain the memory of Protestantism’s origin as a Catholic protest movement, Reformation Day is typically viewed as a day of celebration. On Reformation Sunday of 2009, we posted a 1995 Reformation Day sermon by the Protestant theologian Stanley Hauerwas, named by Time magazine as America’s best theologian. A few weeks ago I had a chance to talk with Hauerwas in person, and he said that he still affirms every word of that sermon. In that sermon Hauerwas says:
After all, the very name ‘Protestantism’ is meant to denote a reform movement of protest within the Church Catholic. When Protestantism becomes an end in itself, which it certainly has through the mainstream denominations in America, it becomes anathema. If we no longer have broken hearts at the church’s division, then we cannot help but unfaithfully celebrate Reformation Sunday.
Tomorrow will be celebrated by many Protestants as “Reformation Sunday.” To be sure, part of what Protestants celebrate on Reformation Day are what they believe to be the truths upheld and preserved within Protestantism. But without careful qualification, celebrating “Reformation Day” while remaining separated from the Catholic Church is a kind of performative contradiction, because it implies that separation, not reform, is the ultimate goal of the protest. Celebrating Reformation Day can be for that reason like celebrating a divorce, or more accurately, celebrating estrangement from our mother and from all our brothers and sisters who remain in her bosom, when in truth Christ calls us all to full communion and prays that we would be one. Moreover celebrating what is a division can blind the celebrants to the evil of that continuing division, just as celebrating divorce could blind children to its evil, or celebrating abortion could blind the celebrants to its evil.
But Reformation Day can be approached differently. It should be an annual reminder of the continuation of the evil in our midst that is the Protestant-Catholic division, a division that causes scandal to the rest of the world regarding the identity and efficacy of Christ’s gospel. In that respect, Reformation Day is a day to ask ourselves the following question:
What have I done, since the last Reformation Day, to help bring reconciliation between Protestants and Catholics?
If the answer is ‘nothing,’ then by our inaction we are in actuality perpetuating the schism which has continued now for almost five hundred years. Reformation Day ought therefore be a day in which Protestants are reminded to enter into authentic and charitable dialogue with Catholics, and Catholics are reminded to enter into such dialogue with Protestants, in order to put this schism behind us as a tragic event in Church history, through which God can nevertheless bring good. The lot of those who despair over the possibility of reconciliation is to die without seeing it. However, that generation who in faith truly believes that with God nothing is impossible will live to see it, and will be graced with the everlasting privilege of being the instruments through which this reconciliation is accomplished.
Having recollected our memory of our history, and a shared understanding of the early Protestants’ intention to reform the Catholic Church, not to form a schism from the Catholic Church, each Protestant faces the following question: How would I as a Protestant know when to return? No one Protestant can answer that question for all Protestants, because no one Protestant has the authority to speak for all Protestants. Each Protestant therefore must answer that question for him or herself.
But at the same time, the Protestant is faced with a second-order question and a second-order problem. The problem is that if we survey a thousand Protestants, and ask each what the Catholic Church would have to change, in order for him or her to stop protesting and be reconciled to the Catholic Church, we get almost a thousand different answers. When the Protestant reflects on his own act of setting conditions that the Catholic Church must meet in order for him to return to full communion with her, he is faced with an awareness that because each Protestant has a different set of conditions for return, and because he has no unique authority above that of all other Protestants to speak for all other Protestants, his very approach makes Protestant-Catholic reconciliation impossible. That’s because even if (per impossible) the Catholic Church could abandon her own doctrine and adopt a Protestant doctrine, the Church could not possibly adopt and simultaneously hold the incompatible Protestant positions on any particular theological question.
The Protestant who reflects on this cannot but notice that to approach reconciliation this way is to fall into ecclesial consumerism, as each person demands that the Church conform to his own interpretation of Scripture before he will submit to her. Implicit in the very nature of an “I won’t return unless the Church does x” condition for reconciliation is a denial of ecclesial authority, a denial that not only presumes precisely what is in question between Protestants and the Catholic Church with respect to the existence of magisterial authority, but implicitly exercises that magisterial authority. So the second-order question is this: How can a Protestant pursue an end to the Protestant-Catholic schism without falling into ecclesial consumerism?
If, as Neal and I argued in “Solo Scriptura, Sola Scriptura, and the Question of Interpretive Authority,” to make conformity to one’s own interpretation a condition for submission is performatively to make oneself one’s own authority, the Protestant’s very act of laying out a list of conditions for reunion with the Catholic Church is not a theologically neutral act. In this act the Protestant intrinsically arrogates to himself an interpretive authority exceeding that of the magisterium of the Catholic Church. He is therefore confronted not only with the changes he wants to see in the Catholic Church, but with the realization that if he sets conditions that the Catholic Church must satisfy in order for him to return to full communion with her, he is performatively arrogating to himself ultimate interpretive authority, and seeking to conform the Church to the image of his own interpretation of Scripture. So the question I invite our Protestant readers to answer is not “What would the Catholic Church have to change in order for me to return to her?” but rather, “What does the multiplicity of Protestant answers to that question reveal about both the prospects and presuppositions of that approach to Protestant-Catholic reconciliation?
Thanks for the clarification. I was fairly certain from other posts of yours I've read that we were on the same sheet of music. Grace to you, my brother.
I’m confused. Which one of you is right?
Yes. you are.
Is that true? Could you send me a link to that, please?
Roman Catholic
Marionite Catholic
Alexandrian Catholic
Coptic Catholic
Chaldean Catholic
just to name a few of the many rites of the CATHOLIC Church.
Great post. And, yes, this is the real condition necessary, a condition it appears as though they will never meet...unless God opens their eyes. But, we stand waiting.
I knew it, that makes 2 of us. thanx
You stand in ignorance.
You have no idea how many people, even here on FR, have come to the Catholic Church!
Reformation Day – and What Led Me To Back to Catholicism [Francis J. Beckwith]
The loss that led us to Mother Church [Siri Abrahamson and her husband]
The first Episcopal church in the U.S. to become Catholic under...
Episcopal Parish in Bladensburg Converts to Roman Catholic Church
Episcopal parish in Bladensburg converts to Roman Catholic Church {Anglican-Catholic caucus}
How an AP Reporter Found Religion [Tom Breen]
My 'granddaddy' John Wayne, actor and Catholic convert
Ex-Pentecostal preacher leads services {convert to Catholicism} - Ecumenical thread
Why are prominent pro-lifers swimming the Tiber?
The Journey Home - August 1, 2011 - David Currie (former Fundamentalist)
[For Many Converts] Sacred Art: a Rebirth?[Ecumenical} (Jeffrey Rubin)
John Wayne [The Convert] (1907-1979) (former Presbyterian)
Catholic Revert: Richard Evans (Why I'm Catholic)
‘I Know This Is Where I Should Be’ (Former VMI Superintendent conversion story)[ Gen. Josiah Bunting]
‘Deep Down, I Knew There Was 1 Truth’ (OPC convert to Catholicism) [Brian Kemper]
“I Just Can’t Make It Alone!” Tom Leopold’s Conversion Story
The Journey Home - 4/25/11 - Joshua Johnson - Former United Methodist minister
Anglican Ordinariate Adds 900 Members
Can it Be [Mary Kochan]
The Steady Stream Home [of people converting to the Catholic Church] Marcus Grodi
Ex-Anglican Priest, Father of Eight, [Ian Hellyer] Gives Up Job to Become Catholic
New U.S. Catholics Include Former Abortion Clinic Administrator, Marine, Seven Family Members
US Catholic Church finds astonishing variety of people joining this Easter
Thousands Joining [Catholic] Church at Easter in US [Catholic Caucus]
The Journey Home - 4/11/11 - Brian Robbins Convert from Judaism
EWTN - The Journey Home - 4/4/11 - Michael Matthews, former Baptist Minister
My Journey Home To The Catholic Church – Why I Am Converting To Catholicism [Bryan Kemper]
3,400 [Catholic] Converts in Hong Kong
EWTN - Journey Home - Mar. 7 - Tom Peterson (founder of Catholics Come Home)
EWTN Journey Home - Feb. 28 - Jeffry Hendrix - Former United Methodist pastor
Lutheran Convert: Richard Lane [Son of Dick "Night Train" Lane]
Former Planned Parenthood director, now pro-life, to become Catholic [Catholic Caucus]
Journey Home - 1/31/11 - Eben Emerson, Former Church of Christ Minister
Former Planned Parenthood director to become Catholic
Former Planned Parenthood director to convert to Catholicism
Former Planned Parenthood director releases book
Escape from Abortion: A Review of unPlanned by Abby Johnson
From Ignorance to Bliss - My Journey to the Catholic Church [Eric Sammons]
Journey Home - January 10, 2011 - Denise Bossert, Former Presbyterian (conversion story)
From Pastor to Parishioner: My Love for Christ Led Me Home [Drake and Crystal McCalister]
(why am I Catholic?) Because I Awoke from a Long, Bad Dream [Webster Bull]
From the Ark to the Barque (Hadley Arkes Speaks about His Reception Into the Catholic Church)
Because of the Divine Beauty of the Mass [Tom and Terry Fenwick]
Anglican Priest Comes Home! [Tim Gahles and his wife Vanessa and family]
The Conversion of Alphonse Ratisbonne
The Journey Home: June 7 - Michael Cumbie - Former Charismatic Episcopal clergyman
Former Colombian model shares conversion story [Amada Rosa Pérez ]
The Leadership of Jesus - SF Master Sergeant Mike Cutone (Conversion Story/Book Review/Interview)
Former Mormon looks forward to baptism at Easter vigil [Melissa Reeves]
From Lesbian Atheist to Stay-at-Home Mother of Six: Quebec Journalist Tells Her Story [Brigitte Bedard]
New Catholics a sign of Easter blessing for church (in Oregon)
Protestant Organist Finds Musical Home in the Catholic Church [Gary Marks]
Record number confirmed in Baltimore, despite recent media attacks on Church[Alex Jones]
An inspiring story of one man’s journey to becoming Catholic[Jeremy Feldbusch]
Can It Be? (Testimony of a former Jehovah's Witness)
Why I am a Catholic[CAROLYN E. DAVIS ]
Man Who "Died" 5 Times Is Becoming Catholic [Jeremy Feldbusch] (Thousands to Enter Church at Easter)
EWTN - The Journey Home - Monday March 22 - Fr. Donald Calloway
Mystery, Meditation, Media: An Interview with Matt Swaim - (Former Presbyterian)
The Reasons for G.K. Chesterton's Conversion
Fr. John Corapi's Conversion story - March 6 at 10pm on EWTN
Responding to the Pope’s Anglican Invitation (priest relates journey from Pentecostalism) [Father Douglas Grandon ]
In the Breaking of the Bread (conversion story of Tim Drake)
Australia's Traditional Anglicans Vote to Convert to Catholicism
Church of England Bishop Converts to Rome [Bishop Paul Richardson}
From Krishna to Christ: The Conversion Testimony of Father Jay Kythe
Ex-Protestant at home in Byzantine Catholic Church {Father James Barrand]
In Iraq, soldier finds a new faith (Muslim converts to Catholic faith)
Why I Left Anglicanism [Fr. Longenecker]
EWTN - The Journey Home - Oct. 26, 2009 - David Twellman, former United Methodist
Senior Anglican bishop reveals he is ready to convert to Roman Catholicism, Rev John Hind
Book: "You Have Not Chosen Me, But I Have Chosen You..." (23 Surprised Converts)
Newt Gingrich on Catholicism and JPII
Episcopal nuns join Catholic Church
Mickey Rourke thanks God and Catholic faith for 'second chance'
Catholic convert and political commentator Robert Novak passes away
Why Newt Gingrich Converted to Catholicism
Reading Into the Church [Deal W. Hudson]
Gnarly: from abuse victim, to prostitute, to surfer, to minister [Mary Setterholm]
Cathedral rector’s priestly journey began with early conversion [ Fr. Bob Clements]
The Great Philosopher Who Became Catholic [Mortimer J. Adler]
The Greater Blessings [David Mills]
EWTN - Journey Home - June 22, 2009 at 8pm - Dr. Jay Budziszewski - former Episcopalian
Cardinal says Catholics humbled by Anglicans' decision to join church
Catholic convert from Oregon coast becomes a priest (former Evangelical)
EWTN - The Journey Home - June 15, 2009 - Marcus interviews a Muslim convert [Talat Strokirk]
(All Saints) Sisters Doing It For Themselves (Anglican House converting en masse)
Journey Home to the Catholic Church: I Have Jumped into the Tiber to Swim Across (UK minister, Fr. Jeffrey Steel )
EWTN - Journey Home - June 8, 2009 at 8pm - Fr. Jay Toborowsky, Jewish convert
EWTN - Monday 8pm - Journey Home - Jerry & Yolanda Cleffi (former Assembly of God)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich Opens Up on Catholic Conversion and Embracing 'Overt Christianity'
Mom’s Gift From Pope [Heidi Sierras]
The Journey Home - April 27 @ 8pm - Doug Grandon former Episcopal clergyman
EWTN - The Journey Home - April 20 - Msgr. Keith Barltrop, former Baptist
Journey Home - Monday April 6 - Kenneth Howell, Former Presbyterian minister
Newt Gingrich on his conversion to Catholicism
Gingrich Keeps Quiet on Catholic Conversion (received into Church over the past weekend)
Exclusive: Newt Gingrich conversion details; plans release of JP2 documentary
“150,000 new or returning Catholics”
Catholic Church prepares for tens of thousands of U.S. converts
Gingrich to Become Catholic During Easter Season
Faith Journey Leads United Methodist from Pastorate to Catholic Priesthood
From Atheist to Catholic (‘Unshakable’ Rationalist Blogged Her Way Into the Church) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
Former Episcopal bishop discusses his new life as Catholic priest [Father Jeffrey N. Steenson]
The Newt Evangelization: Gingrich to become Catholic
Conservative Episcopal bishop resigned to become Roman Catholic priest (New Mexico) Rev. Jeffrey Steenson
Converted Muslim Tells Story Behind Papal Baptism
EWTN - The Journey Home - December 1 - Dr. Steven C. Smith (former Willow Creek)
Former Socialist senator who converted to Catholicism calls for end to abortion [Mercedes Aroz]
Young New Yorker leaves police force to become priest [Nicholas Fernandez]
Interesting Deathbed Converts
Hollywood screenwriter returns to Cleveland, turns life over to God [Joe Eszterhas]
A Journey in Prayer {Randy Hain} [Ecumenical]
ECUMENIC] Our Conversion Experience (SDA to Catholic) [Brandon and Tara Ogden]
An open letter to Mr. Stephen A. Baldwin, Actor, and “born again” Christian [ Victor R. Claveau, MJ "
Sick person who suffered accident recounts conversion after traveling to Lourdes [Ecumenical] [Antonio Escobedo Garcia]
Welcome Home! Anglo-Catholic Sisters on the Road to Rome [Ecumenical]
Former Anglican Bishop, Catholic Convert, Jeffrey Steenson on Anglocatholicism [Ecumenical]
Jeffrey Steenson: Why I Became Catholic [Address to Anglican Use Conference]
Tony Snow Dead at 53, A Tribute to a Catholic Journalist [Tony Snow - Catholic Convert]
A Sexual Revolution (One woman's journey from pro-choice atheist to pro-life Catholic) [Jennifer Fulwiler]
C of E bishop will defect to Rome
Assyrian bishop explains his journey into communion with the Catholic Church
Virginia Tech tragedy leads bereaved mother on journey back to faith [Marian Hammaren]
Journey Home - EWTN at 8pm - Dr. William Bales, former Presbyterian Minister [Ecumenical]
First the Protestants, Now the Cults: Will We (the Catholic Church) Be Ready? [Open]
Six Million African Muslims Convert to Christianity Each Year [OPEN]
EWTN - The Journey Home - May 19 - Tom Cabeen, former Jehovah's Witness [Ecumenic]
A TRIUMPH AND A TRAGEDY [James Akin]
Alex Jones: the evangelical who became a Catholic deacon
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
How the Saints Helped Lead Me Home [Chris Findley]
Who is Mary of Nazareth? [Kenneth J. Howell, Ph. D.}
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
EWTN - Journey Home - 4/7/08 - Rosalind Moss - Former Jew & Evangelical Christian
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace [Joan Tussing]
Coming Out of Sodom (Reversion Experience of Once-Active Homosexual) [Eric Hess]
Our Journey Home [Larry and Joetta Lewis]
Book on Mary turns runaway youngster immersed in drugs and crime into a priest
Dr. Robert C. Koons (former Lutheran) - Journey Home - Monday 3/31 - Conversion Story
The Story of a Convert from Islam – Baptized by the Pope at St. Peter's [Magdi Cristiano Allam]
How Do We Know It’s the True Church? - Twelve Things to Look For [Fr. Dwight Longenecker]
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation [Robert Sungenis]
New Catholics ‘ on fire’ for faith
New faith pulls Hot Springs family together (Baptists join Catholic Church at Easter Vigil) [Danny Morrison and family
SciFi Writer, John C. Wright, Enters Catholic Church at Easter Vigil (conversion story)[John C. Wright]
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura [Dwight Longenecker’family]
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM [Fr. Brian Harrison]
Pope baptizes prominent Italian Muslim [Magdi Allam]
My Journey of Faith [Marco Fallon]
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church [Robert Koons]
Thousands in U.S. to Join (Catholic) Church - Many Feel They Have Found a Home
TURN ABOUT (Carl Olson, former Evangelical and Monday's guest on EWTN's Journey Home)
Former Southern Baptist Pastor Now a Traveling Crusader for the Catholic Church [Michael Cumbie]
All Roads Lead To Rome (A Southern Baptist's Journey into the Catholic Church)[John David Young]
Allen Hunt, Methodist Minister ...Journeys Home (Catholic, Re: Real Presence)/a>
The Challenges and Graces of Conversion [Chris Findley]
An Open Letter...from Bishop John Lipscomb [Another TEC Bishop Goes Papist]
Unlocking the Convert's Heart [Marcus Grodi]
His Open Arms Welcomed Me [ Paul Thigpen}
Why I'm Catholic (Sola Scriptura leads atheist to Catholic Church)
From Calvinist to Catholic (another powerful conversion story) Rodney Beason
Good-bye To All That (Another Episcopalian gets ready to swim the Tiber)
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson’s Statement to the House [of Bishops: Episcopal (TEC) to Catholic]
Bp. Steenson's Letter to his clergy on his conversion to the Catholic Church
Bishop Steenson Will Become a Roman Catholic
Married man considers turn as Catholic priest
Pavarotti returns to the Catholic faith before dying
Searching For Authority (A Methodist minister finds himself surprised by Truth!)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope(Al Kresta)
The Hail Mary of a Protestant (A true story)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar(Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church (Al Kresta)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts (Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Rusty Tisdale (former Pentecostal)
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness(Al Kresta)
Conversion Story - Matt Enloe (former Baptist) [prepare to be amazed!]
THE ORTHODOX REVIVAL IN RUSSIA
Conversion Story - David Finkelstein (former Jew)
Conversion Story - John Weidner (former Evangelical)
Patty Bonds (former Baptist and sister of Dr. James White) to appear on The Journey Home - May 7
Pastor and Flock Become Catholics
Why Converts Choose Catholicism
From Calvinist to Catholic
The journey back - Dr. Beckwith explains his reasons for returning to the Catholic Church
Famous Homosexual Italian Author Returned to the Church Before Dying of AIDS
Dr. Francis Beckwith Returns To Full Communion With The Church
laetare (commentary on ordination of married Anglican convert to the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) Father Bill Lowe
Catholic Converts - Stephen K. Ray (former Evangelical)
Catholic Converts - Malcolm Muggeridge
Catholic Converts - Richard John Neuhaus
Catholic Converts - Avery Cardinal Dulles
Catholic Converts - Israel (Eugenio) Zolli - Chief Rabbi of Rome
Catholic Converts - Robert H. Bork , American Jurist (Catholic Caucus)
Catholic Converts - Marcus Grodi
He Was an Evangelical Christian Until He Read Aquinas [Rob Evans]
The Scott Hahn Conversion Story
FORMER PENTECOSTAL RELATES MIRACLE THAT OCCURRED WITH THE PRECIOUS BLOOD
Interview with Roy Schoeman - A Jewish Convert
Church Is Still Attracting Converts [Jim Anderson]
Some of us haven’t forgotten what our brothers and sisters were burned at the stake for, and we find no basis for agreement between Christianity and Catholicism.
If protestants felt the need, I’m sure they could churn out just as many articles about Catholics who converted to Protestantism. So, what can that prove?
Bah. Islam is growing even faster.
Should that persuade me too?
I do not care that I would be the last true believer on the Earth.
The great apostasy is here and now.
Not surprising. That was predicted a long time ago.
2Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Could be talking about the next pope.
I think Revelation 18 would apply.
Babylon is the Roman church.
I’d like to know if the Catholic Church has even repented of approving torture and death for heretics. Maybe they can’t satisfy all the different Protestant demands, but I think every believer in Christ should be able to agree that was a big mistake.
Also they need to repent of their besmirching the Body of Christ with all their meddling in temporal politics. In many places and at many times they literally were the government.
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